Israel controversies ??

angelophile · 06-27-2012, 05:58 PM

(recklessly?) Thought I'd start a thread asking what people think about the Israeli situation. Could become a secularism vs religion thread (with trolling!), moderators be warned!!.

Necris · 06-27-2012, 07:35 PM

What part of the Israeli situation specifically? If you just want our feelings on Israel this could go downhill pretty quickly into a flame war.

My feelings on Israel in a few short statements:
I believe in Israels right to exist.
I do not support their expansionist policies.
I believe their policies towards the Palestinians can only be described as Religious Apartheid.
I don't believe they had the right to forcibly displace residents of Palestine to create their state when they were offered many other places in which to settle.

angelophile · 06-27-2012, 08:05 PM

I suppose I'm trying to work through various personal issues, to do with "catching" religion and then returning to agnosticism. I had some terrible troubles exploring Kaballah (I now believe to be extremely dangerous), and indoctrinating myself with old testament religion. Consequently I developed mental health troubles I'm still dealing with.

The tenaciousness that jews have to very questionable beliefs seems to border on the pathological. However having taken on board some of their ideas I can understand the power of the faith.

I'm glad to now be in a position to think more logically / sensibly about my existential situation.

hoping to hear other peoples views of how religion helps or hinders them.

mr_rainmaker · 06-27-2012, 10:03 PM

whats not to like I LOVE IDF.....

mr_rainmaker · 06-27-2012, 10:04 PM

butterschnapps · 06-27-2012, 10:58 PM

I just wish we could all just get along. There's no need for violence anywhere on earth, just peace and respect for others.

Vinchester · 06-28-2012, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelophile

I suppose I'm trying to work through various personal issues, to do with "catching" religion and then returning to agnosticism. I had some terrible troubles exploring Kaballah (I now believe to be extremely dangerous), and indoctrinating myself with old testament religion. Consequently I developed mental health troubles I'm still dealing with.

The tenaciousness that jews have to very questionable beliefs seems to border on the pathological. However having taken on board some of their ideas I can understand the power of the faith.

I'm glad to now be in a position to think more logically / sensibly about my existential situation.

hoping to hear other peoples views of how religion helps or hinders them.

Wrong topic name

Is this about Israel or you trying to make sense of/cope with religion? From what you said it seems like it's the latter. And this is just baiting for yet another religious debate... (which religion are we bashing today?)

I'm concerned that you are that disturbed about religion. Could you explain why does religion mean so much to you that you have mental troubles? Why are you "Indoctrinating" yourself??? I am an agnostic too and from my understanding of the term, that means religion is just not a part of my life and I don't even have to think about whether/why God created me etc etc. I find my own meaning for life and ways to be useful and happy.

bluediamond · 06-28-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

What part of the Israeli situation specifically? If you just want our feelings on Israel this could go downhill pretty quickly into a flame war.

My feelings on Israel in a few short statements:
I believe in Israels right to exist.
I do not support their expansionist policies.
I believe their policies towards the Palestinians can only be described as Religious Apartheid.
I don't believe they had the right to forcibly displace residents of Palestine to create their state when they were offered many other places in which to settle.

Exactly my opinion.

The Grief Hole · 06-28-2012, 09:24 AM

I think it's slightly prejudiced to single out Judaism as having 'very questionable beliefs'. From my point of view this phrase could be applied to any religion that values faith over clear cut fact, and I'm sorry to offend anyone who does have religious beliefs with that statement. (As long as you are a decent human being you're alright in my book.)

However starting a thread about something as divisive as the situation in Israel (and then apparently immediately veering off-topic) is not the way to explore your personal existential angst.

Broaden your knowledge of everything - science, religion, cultures, the Earth beneath your feet and what makes your fellow human beings tick, the opinions of others - before you make such an important choice as to what you believe.

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinchester

which religion are we bashing today?

In my humble opinion:

(When appropriate of course, this is hardly the time for blind bashing)

As for the thread, I see no other solution than two states. The middle east is such a polarizing area that I find the one-state idea very unlikely. Add a far-going hate (especially among muslims) for jews, and I see no other solution.
However, the jewish extended settlements are illegal, and therefore Israel should stop immediately with the expansionist policy. I don't buy the settlers' bullshit about Israel "needing" them, they are just trying to fullfill religious prophecy (which hardly makes it prophecy if people are actively trying to make it come through), and that's bullshit.

As for OP, trolling is banned in this subforum, and even if you want us to bash religion here (for your enjoyment or whatever reason, this is not UG), it's still forbidden. I would love to see an Israel-Palestine thread again (especially after DBBQ got banned, I liked that men, but he could not be reasoned with), but please keep it at a civil level

Also, I do not believe anyone on this board is against secularism (any theocrats here?).

Varcolac · 06-28-2012, 10:39 AM

I support a theocracy centred around the ghost of Carl Sagan.

Asides from that, yeah sure secularism. Necris hit it on the head. Israel has a right to exist. So do its neighbours. The Palestinian people definitely have a right to a homeland that's just as important as the Israelis'. A peaceful two state solution is the only way out of this. Israel aren't helping by being a massive dickbag to Gaza; blockading people from basic aid isn't going to stop the hatred, it's only going to intensify it.

Also all Abrahamic religions are equally creepy and weird, but that's an argument for another thread.

angelophile · 06-28-2012, 12:37 PM

The background to my post was:

There was a time when I got burned out from obsesive music practice, and replaced music with religion (specifically jewish religion ( my grandad was jewish), also obsessively. then actually visited Israel.

Not uncommon for people to seek to find their roots.

I thought the discipline of prayer and study would give me structure and focus.

These days Music is back in that role for me.

And yes I probably just needed more sex !

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 12:40 PM

^But then it really has nothing to do with Israel, has it?

angelophile · 06-28-2012, 12:49 PM

With the revolutions in the arab world do we think that democracy will help bring peace to the region?

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 12:56 PM

No, probably not, at least not right away. The arab spring gave rise to many islamistic forces which, harmless in themselves, also carry the common muslim hate for jews. That can prove problematic for a jewish state.

So no, not right away IMO. The region will need to calm down first internally.

angelophile · 06-28-2012, 12:58 PM

just because I myself was becoming a fanatic doesn't mean I can't criticise Israeli fanatics.

obviously there are diverse views among their population I don't condemn entire countries !!

I actually had a great time in Israel, unfortunately I was going a bit nuts at the time.

Many fair offers have been made to the palestinians I think that the fanaticism stops people recognising reasonable compromises.

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 01:01 PM

^Never said you can't do/condemned the entire of Israel/didn't have a great time. I had a hard time seeing the rationale personal problems involving your faith-> the crisis in the middle east.

angelophile · 06-28-2012, 01:56 PM

Don't worry about what connection I make between personal faith and politics!

I'm not sure the connections can be avoided, despite establishing secular constitutions etc , but thats a whole other thread.

I'm interested in the situation there and have fond memories of my visit.

didn't intend to be psycho analysed.

peace

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 02:23 PM

Holy crap you got defensive! I just did not see the connection you made, it was not an accusation of any kind, I kinda like this subject. I just relayed that I did not see how you connected a personal experience to a geo-political problem that affects a lot of people.

Props to you though if this thread takes off in a positive way

USMarine75 · 06-28-2012, 02:46 PM

This thread sucks without DBBQ!

renzoip · 06-28-2012, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necris

What part of the Israeli situation specifically? If you just want our feelings on Israel this could go downhill pretty quickly into a flame war.

My feelings on Israel in a few short statements:
I believe in Israels right to exist.
I do not support their expansionist policies.
I believe their policies towards the Palestinians can only be described as Religious Apartheid.
I don't believe they had the right to forcibly displace residents of Palestine to create their state when they were offered many other places in which to settle.

To this I would add that I strongly condemn their treatment of minorities and immigrants, specially people those of African descent.

highlordmugfug · 06-28-2012, 02:58 PM

You pointed out this could become a religion bashing thread in your first post, and then in your second one start bashing a religion.

You talk about having some sort of mental health issue and then relate that somehow to a big political/geographical issue, and yet you "didn't intend to be psycho analysed"[sic].

What in the hell was the point of this thread, and what the .... are you on about?

Guitarman700 · 06-28-2012, 03:05 PM

This thread is off the rails, pants on head insane.

Jakke · 06-28-2012, 03:08 PM

Is it still too much to hope for some discussion?

Otherwise I second highlord

highlordmugfug · 06-28-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

Is it still too much to hope for some discussion

It depends, Jakke

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelophile

Thought I'd start a thread asking what people think about the Israeli situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelophile

The tenaciousness that jews have to very questionable beliefs

hoping to hear other peoples views of how religion helps or hinders them.

Do you want to talk about Israel, being strangely antisemetic, or religion helping or hurting people in general? The OP doesn't even know what he wants to talk about. I'm reporting the thread and backing out. Let the mods sort it out.

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06-27-2012, 05:58 PM	#1
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Israel controversies ?? (recklessly?) Thought I'd start a thread asking what people think about the Israeli situation. Could become a secularism vs religion thread (with trolling!), moderators be warned!!.

06-27-2012, 07:35 PM	#2
Necris Bonitis. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Somewhere in New York Posts: 2,425 Thanked: 14 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	What part of the Israeli situation specifically? If you just want our feelings on Israel this could go downhill pretty quickly into a flame war. My feelings on Israel in a few short statements: I believe in Israels right to exist. I do not support their expansionist policies. I believe their policies towards the Palestinians can only be described as Religious Apartheid. I don't believe they had the right to forcibly displace residents of Palestine to create their state when they were offered many other places in which to settle. renzoip, highlordmugfug, setsuna7 and 8 others like this. Extreme Syncopation =/= Poly-rhythmic

06-27-2012, 10:03 PM	#4
mr_rainmaker Resident Cherokee Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NE Okieland Posts: 1,672 Thanked: 37 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	whats not to like I LOVE IDF..... Blake1970 likes this. I refuse to have a Mandated quote...

06-27-2012, 10:04 PM	#5
mr_rainmaker Resident Cherokee Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NE Okieland Posts: 1,672 Thanked: 37 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	butterschnapps likes this. I refuse to have a Mandated quote...

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06-27-2012, 08:05 PM	#3
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I suppose I'm trying to work through various personal issues, to do with "catching" religion and then returning to agnosticism. I had some terrible troubles exploring Kaballah (I now believe to be extremely dangerous), and indoctrinating myself with old testament religion. Consequently I developed mental health troubles I'm still dealing with. The tenaciousness that jews have to very questionable beliefs seems to border on the pathological. However having taken on board some of their ideas I can understand the power of the faith. I'm glad to now be in a position to think more logically / sensibly about my existential situation. hoping to hear other peoples views of how religion helps or hinders them.

06-27-2012, 10:58 PM	#6
butterschnapps (´･ω･`) Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 258 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	I just wish we could all just get along. There's no need for violence anywhere on earth, just peace and respect for others. setsuna7, Blake1970 and Vinchester like this.

06-28-2012, 09:24 AM	#9
The Grief Hole SS.org Regular Join Date: May 2011 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 549 Thanked: 3 Feedback Score: 3 reviews	I think it's slightly prejudiced to single out Judaism as having 'very questionable beliefs'. From my point of view this phrase could be applied to any religion that values faith over clear cut fact, and I'm sorry to offend anyone who does have religious beliefs with that statement. (As long as you are a decent human being you're alright in my book.) However starting a thread about something as divisive as the situation in Israel (and then apparently immediately veering off-topic) is not the way to explore your personal existential angst. Broaden your knowledge of everything - science, religion, cultures, the Earth beneath your feet and what makes your fellow human beings tick, the opinions of others - before you make such an important choice as to what you believe. What doesn't kill you just really, really hurts you.

06-28-2012, 10:39 AM	#11
Varcolac Frets? What frets? Join Date: May 2009 Location: London Posts: 1,505 Thanked: 13 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I support a theocracy centred around the ghost of Carl Sagan. Asides from that, yeah sure secularism. Necris hit it on the head. Israel has a right to exist. So do its neighbours. The Palestinian people definitely have a right to a homeland that's just as important as the Israelis'. A peaceful two state solution is the only way out of this. Israel aren't helping by being a massive dickbag to Gaza; blockading people from basic aid isn't going to stop the hatred, it's only going to intensify it. Also all Abrahamic religions are equally creepy and weird, but that's an argument for another thread. Carpathia : progressive extreme metal from London. Free track! Click here! SchecterWhore: "Development, phase four. Beethoven takes you for a ride through space in his Pontiac Trans Am."

06-28-2012, 12:37 PM	#12
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The background to my post was: There was a time when I got burned out from obsesive music practice, and replaced music with religion (specifically jewish religion ( my grandad was jewish), also obsessively. then actually visited Israel. Not uncommon for people to seek to find their roots. I thought the discipline of prayer and study would give me structure and focus. These days Music is back in that role for me. And yes I probably just needed more sex !

06-28-2012, 12:40 PM	#13
Jakke Thinks like a gopher Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,526 Thanked: 91 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^But then it really has nothing to do with Israel, has it? Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

06-28-2012, 12:49 PM	#14
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	With the revolutions in the arab world do we think that democracy will help bring peace to the region?

06-28-2012, 12:56 PM	#15
Jakke Thinks like a gopher Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,526 Thanked: 91 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	No, probably not, at least not right away. The arab spring gave rise to many islamistic forces which, harmless in themselves, also carry the common muslim hate for jews. That can prove problematic for a jewish state. So no, not right away IMO. The region will need to calm down first internally. Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

06-28-2012, 12:58 PM	#16
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	just because I myself was becoming a fanatic doesn't mean I can't criticise Israeli fanatics. obviously there are diverse views among their population I don't condemn entire countries !! I actually had a great time in Israel, unfortunately I was going a bit nuts at the time. Many fair offers have been made to the palestinians I think that the fanaticism stops people recognising reasonable compromises.

06-28-2012, 01:01 PM	#17
Jakke Thinks like a gopher Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,526 Thanked: 91 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^Never said you can't do/condemned the entire of Israel/didn't have a great time. I had a hard time seeing the rationale personal problems involving your faith-> the crisis in the middle east. Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

06-28-2012, 01:56 PM	#18
angelophile ss.org Regular Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: leeds uk Posts: 121 Thanked: 5 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Don't worry about what connection I make between personal faith and politics! I'm not sure the connections can be avoided, despite establishing secular constitutions etc , but thats a whole other thread. I'm interested in the situation there and have fond memories of my visit. didn't intend to be psycho analysed. peace

06-28-2012, 02:23 PM	#19
Jakke Thinks like a gopher Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,526 Thanked: 91 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Holy crap you got defensive! I just did not see the connection you made, it was not an accusation of any kind, I kinda like this subject. I just relayed that I did not see how you connected a personal experience to a geo-political problem that affects a lot of people. Props to you though if this thread takes off in a positive way Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

06-28-2012, 02:46 PM	#20
USMarine75 糟糕 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: MA Posts: 1,702 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	This thread sucks without DBBQ! renzoip, highlordmugfug, Jakke and 1 others like this. I'm a lover… Not a fighter... But I'm also a fighter, so don’t get any ideas.

06-28-2012, 02:58 PM	#22
highlordmugfug themuthaphukkindeath Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: _ Posts: 4,012 Thanked: 47 $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $highlordmugfug is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 18 reviews	You pointed out this could become a religion bashing thread in your first post, and then in your second one start bashing a religion. You talk about having some sort of mental health issue and then relate that somehow to a big political/geographical issue, and yet you "didn't intend to be psycho analysed"[sic]. What in the hell was the point of this thread, and what the .... are you on about? Vinchester and Jakke like this.

06-28-2012, 03:05 PM	#23
Guitarman700 SS.org Regular Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Traverse City, MI Posts: 4,841 Thanked: 22 Feedback Score: 13 reviews	This thread is off the rails, pants on head insane. "FFDP is metal for Nascar fans."-Rick "Someone said they like guns. I like Mel Gibson."-God

06-28-2012, 03:08 PM	#24
Jakke Thinks like a gopher Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,526 Thanked: 91 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Is it still too much to hope for some discussion? Otherwise I second highlord Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

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