KKK "White-People Only" flyers sent out. Stay classy, North Carolina

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by renzoip

They both suck ass, as you mentioned. But that does not mean that the history and the material conditions that facilitated the emergence of black nationalism are rubbish

True. And I'll certainly acknowledge what the gentleman was trying to point out (that the KKK have did far more criminally than the vice-versa).

It just urks me that more black political leaders and cultural/sports icons don't come out and condemm the often millitant attitude of the BPs.

Seems that they (BP) help foster a "can't do it because the white man" attitude, when they should be promoting more of a "can do it because we are a proud determined highly achieving people" philosophy.

There are now so many success stories for blacks in all career fields.
Even though they are still the minority in most instances, they can serve as can do role models for subsequent generations to follow.
Unfortunately, anytime a successful black man or woman stands up and says that it's up to the individual to rise above, they are castegated as being "upsucking uncle toms".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxIji...eature=related

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Explorer

I'm always ready to learn how the Klan and the Panthers are exactly the same thing. Could someone post examples of such?

And, if one can't then, the one might think twice about saying they are equivalent, no?

Did anyone say they were equal or the exact same thing? I know I didn't.
Maybe someone else did, as I've not read the whole thread through closely.

Two things that are both wrong don't have to be identical or equally wrong to be wrong. They're just both wrong in their individual ways.

[Guitarman700]

Originally Posted by Necris

I... agree with TRENCHLORD.

More signs of the impending apocolypse.

[renzoip]

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

True. And I'll certainly acknowledge what the gentleman was trying to point out (that the KKK have did far more criminally than the vice-versa).

It just urks me that more black political leaders and cultural/sports icons don't come out and condemm the often millitant attitude of the BPs.

Seems that they (BP) help foster a "can't do it because the white man" attitude, when they should be promoting more of a "can do it because we are a proud determined highly achieving people" philosophy.

There are now so many success stories for blacks in all career fields.
Even though they are still the minority in most instances, they can serve as can do role models for subsequent generations to follow.
Unfortunately, anytime a successful black man or woman stands up and says that it's up to the individual to rise above, they are castegated as being "upsucking uncle toms".

I get you, but socio-economic data will show that despite success stories, most african americans in the US remain highly under represented, and at a disadvantage when it comes to socio-political-economic power. Of course, I agree that antagonizing all "white people" is not a productive approach and it achieves nothing. In that sense , I too condemn the BPP.

Also, rags to riches stories are outstanding precisely because they are rare, per every "self-made" successful minority out there, there are thousands of desperate poor minority workers. And I believe their discontent reaches far more than just being poor, or not "making it", I think it also has to do with representation, and with institutionalized racism against them. Education and money are highly important, but that alone isn't the cure to racism. I too, believe that the individual should put all his/her effort to rise above, but I won't deny that the system, as it currently stands, is set up to give minorities a much harder time achieving "success" in comparison to majorities.

[Xaios]

Originally Posted by Necris

I... agree with TRENCHLORD.

[athawulf]

Originally Posted by Necris

I'm aware there is no racism in his lyrics and no-one is asking you to "investigate every member of your favorite bands" however in the case of Burzum/Varg his views are so well known, so out in the open that very little research on your part is required. If you choose to buy his music anyway you aren't merely turning a blind eye to his views you're willingly financially supporting a racist. No amount of mental gymnastics you can do will change that.

It's pretty straight forward, no mental gymnastics involved. I never denied my money was going to a racist, but my money is paying for (what I believe) is good music. Not to mention I also sometimes get plastic bags when I shop, I buy red meat from the local supermarket of cows treated like shit, buy music which gives money to people who are addicted to serious drugs- the list goes on.

Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end, and I made the subjective choice to not care about Burzum's music being written by a racist. My only point I brought up was that his music has no NS themes in it, and that was all.

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching black hate for even longer.
Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
They both suck ass.

It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.

[Explorer]

Did someone just equate using plastic bags or eating meat with giving money to a Nazi?

I see a difference, but maybe it's only obvious to me.

[Scar Symmetry]

Originally Posted by renzoip

You know what? I actually think the BPP member did good in refusing to answer the question that the hosts were asking. Because the whole purpose behind that interview was to set him up into a trap in order to undermine a bigger problem. So, even if it may appear illogical, I think he was smart enough to expose their double standards and not to play their games. I also think he has a point when he says that they are putting a man in the hot seat and then holding what he says against him. Also, they fail to give us any context for what the former professor said. I'd like to hear what these fox news bigots would say if they were in the hot seat. I laugh at their attempt to be the voice of reason.

Also, individual bigotry and institutionalized racism are not the same. Both are bad, but personal prejudice and systemic disempowerment of minorities come from different starting points. Racism against "whites" is only a reaction to institutionalized racism and is rooted in resentment for past and present injustices; it does not suggest that "whites" are inherently inferior as a "race", nor does it try to use pseudo scientific or moralistic arguments to justify the exploitation or segregation or disempowerment of "white people".

One can (and should IMO) be against all forms of racism and bigotry, but arguing that the KKK and the NBPP are two sides of the same coin is inaccurate, and reactionary.

Agreed on all points.

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

Black Panthers have been preaching white hate for decades, and KKK have been preaching black hate for even longer.
Doesn't matter which sides of which coins and other termonology rubbish.
They both suck ass.

It's ignorant hypocrisy to condemm one, and then cover for the other.

White hate born of retaliation, it's not the same thing. The guy in the video makes a good point of the fact that the white man is historically a mass murderer of people who are not his colour. The NBPP are looking for solutions to their own protection. "Exterminate all whites" is a ridiculous statement (and a very, very unlikely scenario to ever come to fruition) but it shows how severely some blacks feel oppressed by the white man.

As renzoip says, it's more of a reaction than anything. Some are still raw about slavery, some are raw about the events of today. The white man, no matter how innocent, should not give a knee-jerk reaction of "oh it wasn't me so why be angry at people my colour" because that takes the legs out from under those who have right to be angry. We should be looking to take responsibility, wherever and however possible, to ensure that our fellow man feels equal and safe.

[Konfyouzd]

I get what you mean, Explorer. I guess those were more meant to be coupled with previous points in that these aren't things I would even look to find out unless it's something literally everyone knows. Also, if I've already been listening before it, it's something I very well may just say ".... it" and ignore if I like the music enough.

Obviously if I see it right in front of me or know for a fact that that's the case I would more than likely not buy their stuff had I never heard it, but with me I may have already bought a few albums before I even find out.

@Dave - Good points. Not sure the KKK and Black Panthers have the same goals, per se (although individuals within the respective groups may sound the same) they just both seem willing to take it to the same end. Over something that will never end until they both chill the .... out.

[Konfyouzd]

Originally Posted by athawulf

Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end...

Your examples were a bit extreme, but I kinda get what you were going for... I'm pretty sure the quoted phrase sums it up though. I can dig it.

Reminds me of movies where the highschool girl that wants to "save the world" runs around telling people... "Oh you shouldn't buy this; they test on animals!" I'm not saying that to ridicule anyone, I'm just saying I see a parallel in that folks have some moral objection with the originator and thus aim to boycott the product. I'm not technically paying them to share my values. Further, I'd like to think that if my music were good they'd be able to see through the BS and listen as well, but that could just be wishful thinking. To me music is bigger than human beings being petty.

[TRENCHLORD]

I actually agree for the most part with what everyone is saying.
It will take more time for minorities to be as statistically equally distributed through the socio-economic spectrum.

Our legal equality has improved and is still improving I believe (for example, Mr. Obama doing right in instructing Houlder to equalize the federal penalties (sentences) for powder coke vs. crack rocked coke. Which of course was a great example of still existing institutionalized racism.

With so many gains now constantly multiplying synergetically, I would think millitancy to be a regressing stratagy for continued socio-economic and political representational improvement.

[renzoip]

Originally Posted by athawulf

It's pretty straight forward, no mental gymnastics involved. I never denied my money was going to a racist, but my money is paying for (what I believe) is good music. Not to mention I also sometimes get plastic bags when I shop, I buy red meat from the local supermarket of cows treated like shit, buy music which gives money to people who are addicted to serious drugs- the list goes on.

Each one of us makes the choice to draw the line on where our "consumer activism" should begin/end, and I made the subjective choice to not care about Burzum's music being written by a racist. My only point I brought up was that his music has no NS themes in it, and that was all

Slightly off topic, but I live near Miami, and when I go to metal shows over there, most of the people wearing Burzum shirts are actually dark skinned latinos. Interestingly enough, when I talk to them, they all try to claim some sort of remote european descent, and they are racist. Kids these days...

[Konfyouzd]

Originally Posted by renzoip

Slightly off topic, but I live near Miami, and when I go to metal shows over there, most of the people wearing Burzum shirts are actually dark skinned latinos. Interestingly enough, when I talk to them, they all try to claim some sort of remote european descent, and they are racist. Kids these days...

Whatever makes em sleep better at night, no?

If you wanna get technical I'm sure a lot of us in America are of some kind of European descent.

Example: My heritage is Cuban/Bahamian. My last name is Irish...

Some ppl just get far too caught up in what was meant to just be entertainment.

[renzoip]

Originally Posted by Konfyouzd

Whatever makes em sleep better at night, no?

If you wanna get technical I'm sure a lot of us in America are of some kind of European descent.

Example: My heritage is Cuban/Bahamian. My last name is Irish...

Some ppl just get far too caught up in what was meant to just be entertainment.

Yup, I just laugh it off since their claims fail to impress me.

I have traceable basque descent, but I never talk about it, unless I'm asked. It's not important to me. But I guess it's a big deal to some people within the black metal community. The other day I had a pretty interesting conversation with one of these guys about the KKK rally in question, it went something like this:


Dude: The Klan has a point, .... N***** and illegal S****
Me: Do you realize that you are latino yourself?
Dude: Yes, but I'm Cuban with Spanish and Italian descent.
Me: So what?
Dude: Well, I'm not like those illegal mexican indians
Me: I'm sure the khlan would not stop to ask you where you and your parent are from before lynching you.
Dude: That wouldn't happen to me because of my european ancestry
Me: No, that wouldn't happen to you cause you live in miami, and never leave miami.
Dude: Whatever


Sometimes I feel like calling out their idiocy, sometimes I feel like I couldn't possibly make them look more idiotic than they already make themselves look like.

[athawulf]

Originally Posted by Explorer

Did someone just equate using plastic bags or eating meat with giving money to a Nazi?

I see a difference, but maybe it's only obvious to me.

Yes, someone just made an analogy of how his money goes to places he can disagree with. That someone never said they were of equal value though- as analogies tend to inherently be.

I disagree with the way animals are treated, yet the butchers cut good cuts of steak which I buy in the same way I can disagree with someone who writes good music.

Sorry that was lost on you somehow

[Explorer]

Actually, I think a lot of people would agree that between these three...

Plastic bags

Eating meat

Thinking the Holocaust was a good thing

...that the first two don't even begin to approach the third in terms of how horribly racist and evil the third is.

Even if you toss eating veal in, or animal testing, those are in no way comparable in order of magnitude. Really, do an informal poll if you want.

Dude, if you really think that the first two can be used as an illustration of why it's okay to help support Nazis, you lack a bit of insight. Normally one might instead conclude that being okay with supporting the business of a Klansman or a Nazi might indicate a bit of racism on the part of the supporter, but I'll instead attribute it to you maybe not having thought it through.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[athawulf]

We can chase in circles all you want, I clearly stated they are of unequal value but the premise of paying for a good product that can support negative things is the same.

I think you give him too much credit anyway. What are my few dollars going to do, pay for a weeks webmaster fees for him to talk about aryan aliens or some other crazy shit? Dude lives on a small farm and comes out to say something ever few months.

[Explorer]

I know you said they're of unequal value.

I don't think you really appreciate how unequal those values are.

Actually, I suspect you could come up with closer equivalents (supporting someone who's okay with the Holocaust's aims, supporting someone who is good with lynching negroes, supportings someone who wants all gays killed, etc.) but don't want to go there because every ....ing one of them is just unacceptable to most.

However, let's toss this open, as I could be out of step.

Is there anyone else here who seriously feels that using plastic bags or eating meat is like supporting a Nazi sympathizer, with the only difference being in degree?

And, since it's an internet forum and possibly not connected to real life, I'm gonna suggest you ask your girlfriend/wife/partner, your family/parents, and your employer (maybe HR) if they see these to be directly comparable in any way. I suspect you'll instead find that you won't even ask... because you know it will cost you credibility in the real world.

True story, though: I asked a few people in the time since my last post, and after everyone busted out laughing, the best response (not serious, but trying really hard to be): Well, you can't say the first two are like the Holocaust... because you know meat eating and the plastic bag really happened.

*None* of the women I know would be comfortable dating a guy who was okay financially supporting a Nazi when there's other cool music available incidentally, so you might not want to mention all this to any women you know unless you know where their sympathies lie.

[bob123]

As much as I detest any and all racism, these people are protected by the constitution to perform this (albiet heinous) rituals as long as all the proper forms are filed.

I'd much rather see this, then those ....ing "occupy" hipsters running around doing stupid shit.

edit:
.... it. I deal with ignorant people too much as it is.

[athawulf]

Originally Posted by Explorer

I know you said they're of unequal value.

I don't think you really appreciate how unequal those values are.

Actually, I suspect you could come up with closer equivalents (supporting someone who's okay with the Holocaust's aims, supporting someone who is good with lynching negroes, supportings someone who wants all gays killed, etc.) but don't want to go there because every ....ing one of them is just unacceptable to most.

However, let's toss this open, as I could be out of step.

Is there anyone else here who seriously feels that using plastic bags or eating meat is like supporting a Nazi sympathizer, with the only difference being in degree?

And, since it's an internet forum and possibly not connected to real life, I'm gonna suggest you ask your girlfriend/wife/partner, your family/parents, and your employer (maybe HR) if they see these to be directly comparable in any way. I suspect you'll instead find that you won't even ask... because you know it will cost you credibility in the real world.

True story, though: I asked a few people in the time since my last post, and after everyone busted out laughing, the best response (not serious, but trying really hard to be): Well, you can't say the first two are like the Holocaust... because you know meat eating and the plastic bag really happened.

*None* of the women I know would be comfortable dating a guy who was okay financially supporting a Nazi when there's other cool music available incidentally, so you might not want to mention all this to any women you know unless you know where their sympathies lie.

Sorry but appealing to my acquaintances, family and friends is not the way to go about finding a conclusion. For one reason, it is simply not enough to ask the majority of people whether or not something is morally ok, as you may know at one point in time racism was accepted by the masses.

And secondly, my friends, females included though you may not believe it, are way more open minded than you imagine. In fact, one of them I argue with all the time about Burzum and other things like veganism, politics, etc -but It does not make us less close in anyway. Nice try though

*None* of the women I know would be flattered by anyone assuming their philosophy or morality for any reason, including declaring that they would judge the merit of their friendships on the way one spends their money on music. See what I did there?

We're at the point in our internet disagreement where we're starting to repeat ourselves the third and fourth time.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by bob123

As much as I detest any and all racism, these people are protected by the constitution to perform this (albiet heinous) rituals as long as all the proper forms are filed.

I'd much rather see this, then those ....ing "occupy" hipsters running around doing stupid shit.

edit:
.... it. I deal with ignorant people too much as it is.

Apparently saying people are entitled to their 1st ammendment rights makes me a "racist douche".

Id say some people need to learn how to read for context.

[Waelstrum]

^ I think some might have interpreted what you said as the KKK are better than the occupy movement. This could lead to the conclusion that you think overt racism is better than whatever the occupy movement stands for (I don't really get what they're saying, but that's another topic). I'm sure that's not what you meant.

[Lagtastic]

There are idiots and jackasses of every race, color, and creed. Hopefully people of the younger generation realize this. Unfortunately, there are still a huge percentage of the population that are raised to detest people of another color.

Don't think all of NC is bad. In the cities it is quite nice. Charlotte, Raleigh, and especially Asheville are nice places to be. However, heading 50 miles outside of a larger city can lead you right to towns with 2 traffic lights and an old-school view on racism.

If you really want to see it bad, I lived in Mobile Alabama for a few years. Even in the 2nd largest city in the state, the KKK rallies in public park and racism is literally shoved down your throat.

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Lagtastic

Don't think all of NC is bad. In the cities it is quite nice. Charlotte, Raleigh, and especially Asheville are nice places to be.

Yeah I can also attest to this. Having visited Ashville numerous times throughout my life, I'd say it's one of the friendliest and most welcoming places in the whole U.S., no matter what your race or personal style. Most people there are extremely chill.