This is disgusting beyond words.

[BucketheadRules]

Indonesia's atheists face battle for religious freedom | World news | guardian.co.uk

I really hope this isn't a repost.

I find it so shocking that even in the 21st century people are still treated like this. It's sub-human.

[SenorDingDong]

It is terrible, but you've also got to remember; their culture is much, much different from the UK's and America's. They probably find some of the stuff we do just as terrible. Social standards tend to dictate what we find "terrible" or "acceptable."

[Jakke]

Well, that's persecution for ya, atheism is not covered by the right of religion... Hope enough noise is made to at least shorten the sentence, there's really nothing else to do at this point.

[Volteau]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

It is terrible, but you've also got to remember; their culture is much, much different from the UK's and America's. They probably find some of the stuff we do just as terrible. Social standards tend to dictate what we find "terrible" or "acceptable."

This. Even though I also find this terrible, as Foucault would say, "Each society creates a 'regime of truth' according to its beliefs, values, and mores". The dichotomy of good/evil isn't as black and white as some are led to believe. And even within the societies themselves there exists a myriad of sub-societies. I myself live in one where Catholicism is the norm, and being an atheist, I'm looked at as "one of them". Pretty sad to be honest.

And Jakke, is your location info a reference to Neil Young's song? Or just coincidence?

[The Reverend]

How tolerant or understanding should one be in a case like this?

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

It is terrible, but you've also got to remember; their culture is much, much different from the UK's and America's. They probably find some of the stuff we do just as terrible. Social standards tend to dictate what we find "terrible" or "acceptable."

They want to beat him to death because he disagrees with them.

"Well, that's just their culture, we can't say anything about it."

.... that noise. Killing people over a disagreement, or because they said something mean about something you believe is all powerful, is bullshit barbarity. We have absolutely no reason to respect a viewpoint that objectively and powerfully increases the suffering of others for little to no reason (especially when they've done no harm to others).



No one respects gang cultures for killing each other over where they live or the color of clothes they wear, there's no reason to respect violence and barbarity in other cultures over nonsense either.

[Stealthdjentstic]

Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations ---> true

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Volteau

And Jakke, is your location info a reference to Neil Young's song? Or just coincidence?

It's in reference to this:

[EtherealEntity]

Going to jail for not believing in something for which there is not a single ounce of proof?
What the .... is this world

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

They want to beat him to death because he disagrees with them.

"Well, that's just their culture, we can't say anything about it."

.... that noise. Killing people over a disagreement, or because they said something mean about something you believe is all powerful, is bullshit barbarity. We have absolutely no reason to respect a viewpoint that objectively and powerfully increases the suffering of others for little to no reason (especially when they've done no harm to others).



No one respects gang cultures for killing each other over where they live or the color of clothes they wear, there's no reason to respect violence and barbarity in other cultures over nonsense either.

So we should instead force all cultures to uphold our laws and viewpoints and make them adjust their ways to fit our standards?

To quote you, ".... that noise."

I never said you can't say anything about it--say all you want. But don't expect every other country to change in order to match ours. That's over-inflated egotism. You think its wrong? Well, apparently an entire country disagrees with you.

[pink freud]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

So we should instead force all cultures to uphold our laws and viewpoints and make them adjust their ways to fit our standards?

To quote you, ".... that noise."

I never said you can't say anything about it--say all you want. But don't expect every other country to change in order to match ours. That's over-inflated egotism. You think its wrong? Well, apparently an entire country disagrees with you.

Claiming that the alternative to accepting the values of a culture is warring on that culture to change it is a false dichotomy. One is perfectly capable of believing a culture to be wrong in some aspect without fighting to change that culture.

[synrgy]

Originally Posted by pink freud

Claiming that the alternative to accepting the values of a culture is warring on that culture to change it is a false dichotomy. One is perfectly capable of believing a culture to be wrong in some aspect without fighting to change that culture.

Not to mention: One can disagree with a single aspect of another culture without feeling that said culture needs to adhere to one's own standards completely. In other words, there's a far cry between believing no human being should be killed for their beliefs, and thinking that everyone in the World would be happier if they just had access to Wal-Mart.

Just because one disagrees with religious intolerance doesn't mean they think everyone should be American.

[Jakke]

And not to mention that a US poll showed that atheists are generally less trusted than rapists. In the United States of America folks, just leavin' it out there.


OT, I agree with above, we can disagree with a policy in a country without it meaning that an invasion should be launched. Religious persecution is barbaric, and we are well within our rights to say that.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

So we should instead force all cultures to uphold our laws and viewpoints and make them adjust their ways to fit our standards?

To quote you, ".... that noise."

I never said you can't say anything about it--say all you want. But don't expect every other country to change in order to match ours. That's over-inflated egotism. You think its wrong? Well, apparently an entire country disagrees with you.

I never said anything about forcing them to change anything, and someone already beat me to pointing out that that's a false dichotomy, but no one has gotten to this one so I'll point out that it's also a strawman, since I never made the argument that we should force them to do anything, I just pointed out that not all viewpoints are created equal and ones that say that violence or death are punishments worthy of disagreeing with someone are barbaric and that that particular viewpoint is not something that we should respect/sit idly by and not at the very least voice an opinion on.

There's a huge difference between respecting/understanding/appreciating other cultures, and defending unnecessary cruelty.




Tell me how gang violence is just the tits, tell me how the Rape of Nanking was the bees knees, tell me how the holocaust was ballin' beyond belief, tell me how the way Pyongyang treats it's people is super fly, tell me how the Halabja massacre was awesome, or realize that your argument overreaches and you're equating "different culture" with "must be right, saying anything against it makes YOU the jerk".

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

I never said anything about forcing them to change anything, and someone already beat me to pointing out that that's a false dichotomy, but no one has gotten to this one so I'll point out that it's also a strawman, since I never made the argument that we should force them to do anything, I just pointed out that not all viewpoints are created equal and ones that say that violence or death are punishments worthy of disagreeing with someone are barbaric and that that particular viewpoint is not something that we should respect/sit idly by and not at the very least voice an opinion on.

There's a huge difference between respecting/understanding/appreciating other cultures, and defending unnecessary cruelty.




Tell me how gang violence is just the tits, tell me how the Rape of Nanking was the bees knees, tell me how the holocaust was ballin' beyond belief, tell me how the way Pyongyang treats it's people is super fly, tell me how the Halabja massacre was awesome, or realize that your argument overreaches and you're equating "different culture" with "must be right, saying anything against it makes YOU the jerk".

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong. You think it is cruel and unnecessary because you were brought up to think so. They were not. Their country has laws, just like any other. To them, it is not barbaric. To you, because of where you were brought up, it is.

See, a country has laws. A person breaks the law, there are clearly defined consequences for breaking said law--which they are then subjected to.

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was rather clear, is that you are holding them to a standard based on our country's (the USA's) beliefs/laws/etc.

And in order for it to be a false dichotomy, I would have had to supply two terrible choices, and since accepting a culture and leaving it at peace to run the way in which it is currently running and is accepted by the majority of its peoples is pleasant for most every one involved... well, someone'll have an argument for that as well.

[Jakke]

But hey, with that reasoning, slavery wasn't that bad either, they were brought up to think it was okay, who are you to say that it was wrong?

[EtherealEntity]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong.

I personally think it's wrong because punishing somebody for what they do or do not believe in is wrong. Simple.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong. You think it is cruel and unnecessary because you were brought up to think so. They were not. Their country has laws, just like any other. To them, it is not barbaric. To you, because of where you were brought up, it is.

See, a country has laws. A person breaks the law, there are clearly defined consequences for breaking said law--which they are then subjected to.

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was rather clear, is that you are holding them to a standard based on our country's (the USA's) beliefs/laws/etc.

And in order for it to be a false dichotomy, I would have had to supply two terrible choices, and since accepting a culture and leaving it at peace to run the way in which it is currently running and is accepted by the majority of its peoples is pleasant for most every one involved... well, someone'll have an argument for that as well.

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

Tell me how gang violence is just the tits, tell me how the Rape of Nanking was the bees knees, tell me how the holocaust was ballin' beyond belief, tell me how the way Pyongyang treats it's people is super fly, tell me how the Halabja massacre was awesome, or realize that your argument overreaches and you're equating "different culture" with "must be right, saying anything against it makes YOU the jerk".

I'm waiting.

And, it's not really that pleasant for all the people getting beaten to death/threatened with death over mild disagreements.


I'll just leave these here.
First they came

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.-Douglas Adams

A ‘different culture’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt when one is stoned | Maryam Namazie

And what about all the people in the nations where things like this are happening that DON'T agree with it, that AREN'T okay with being killed for petty differences, who WANT things to be different? To hell with their opinions because they aren't in the majority?

You smugly telling me that "well you only feel that way because of where you were raised *monocle*" is condescending, and it's a not-so-clever way of not having to actually argue anything or support anything, because it allows you to just repeat your point over and over again without actually answering any questions or supporting yourself.

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

There's a huge difference between respecting/understanding/appreciating other cultures, and defending unnecessary cruelty.

And until you understand that, and realize, once again, that you aren't "respecting other cultures" you're defending violence and persecution (or at least defend yourself, and be consistent on the holocaust, Nanking, and every other act of violence ever committed somewhere that you don't live also being okay just because 'the culture is different'), I don't really have anything else to say to you.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong. You think it is cruel and unnecessary because you were brought up to think so. They were not. Their country has laws, just like any other. To them, it is not barbaric. To you, because of where you were brought up, it is.

See, a country has laws. A person breaks the law, there are clearly defined consequences for breaking said law--which they are then subjected to.

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was rather clear, is that you are holding them to a standard based on our country's (the USA's) beliefs/laws/etc.

I have been wanting to use this for ages!

[pink freud]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong. You think it is cruel and unnecessary because you were brought up to think so. They were not. Their country has laws, just like any other. To them, it is not barbaric. To you, because of where you were brought up, it is.

See, a country has laws. A person breaks the law, there are clearly defined consequences for breaking said law--which they are then subjected to.

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was rather clear, is that you are holding them to a standard based on our country's (the USA's) beliefs/laws/etc.

And in order for it to be a false dichotomy, I would have had to supply two terrible choices, and since accepting a culture and leaving it at peace to run the way in which it is currently running and is accepted by the majority of its peoples is pleasant for most every one involved... well, someone'll have an argument for that as well.

Your argument is an argument from moralistic nihilism, and there is nothing wrong with that (I am one), but that philosophy is only sustainable in a society that also practices healthy empathy.

[vampiregenocide]

I need to stop coming to this part of the forum.

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

I'm waiting.

And, it's not really that pleasant for all the people getting beaten to death/threatened with death over mild disagreements.


I'll just leave these here.
First they came

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.-Douglas Adams

A ‘different culture’ doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt when one is stoned | Maryam Namazie

And what about all the people in the nations where things like this are happening that DON'T agree with it, that AREN'T okay with being killed for petty differences, who WANT things to be different? To hell with their opinions because they aren't in the majority?

You smugly telling me that "well you only feel that way because of where you were raised *monocle*" is condescending, and it's a not-so-clever way of not having to actually argue anything or support anything, because it allows you to just repeat your point over and over again without actually answering any questions or supporting yourself.

And until you understand that, and realize, once again, that you aren't "respecting other cultures" you're defending violence and persecution (or at least defend yourself, and be consistent on the holocaust, Nanking, and every other act of violence ever committed somewhere that you don't live also being okay just because 'the culture is different'), I don't really have anything else to say to you.

Of course punishment isn't pleasant--who the .... ever said it was? If punishment was meant to make you feel good, we'd all be walking around doing whatever we like.

I never claimed any of the things you are waiting for me to argue against, so why would I argue against them? We are on the topic in the OP; I'm not dragging this around to different events.

If the people of said nation don't agree with what is going on, it is their job to change it, just as it is American's jobs to do so in America. Blatantly breaking a law for which there was a clearly defined punishment is what we're talking about here--it isn't like it was just sprung on him, or they made up the law on the spot. He knew what he was doing. While I never said I agreed with the punishment, I also wouldn't stick my hand in fire just to check that it was indeed hot.

What am I supposed to support with evidence? The fact that their culture is different from ours and that I don't see myself morally superior to them just because I don't agree with the way the enforce their laws? You can use all the links and quotes you want--they're great, and show that you're adept at using a search engine--however, if I'm "smug" because I believe you're setting a standard based on your homeland and looking down on their actions because they aren't what you were raised on, then I don't understand your point.

[BucketheadRules]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

Of course punishment isn't pleasant--who the .... ever said it was? If punishment was meant to make you feel good, we'd all be walking around doing whatever we like.

OK, but the whole point of this article and this thread is - why is atheism worthy of punishment anyway? Freedom of choice is a basic right of society wherever you are (though some states go to pains to deny it to their people), and while the Indonesian "faith police" allow freedom of choice to an extent, their generosity doesn't stretch as far as allowing people not to follow religion at all. Why should that be?

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

1.Of course punishment isn't pleasant--who the .... ever said it was? If punishment was meant to make you feel good, we'd all be walking around doing whatever we like.

2.I never claimed any of the things you are waiting for me to argue against, so why would I argue against them? We are on the topic in the OP; I'm not dragging this around to different events.

3.If the people of said nation don't agree with what is going on, it is their job to change it, just as it is American's jobs to do so in America. Blatantly breaking a law for which there was a clearly defined punishment is what we're talking about here--it isn't like it was just sprung on him, or they made up the law on the spot. He knew what he was doing. While I never said I agreed with the punishment, I also wouldn't stick my hand in fire just to check that it was indeed hot.

4.What am I supposed to support with evidence? The fact that their culture is different from ours and that I don't see myself morally superior to them just because I don't agree with the way the enforce their laws? You can use all the links and quotes you want--they're great, and show that you're adept at using a search engine--however, if I'm "smug" because I believe you're setting a standard based on your homeland and looking down on their actions because they aren't what you were raised on, then I don't understand your point.

1. No shit, also irrelevant.

2. Because if "it's their culture, so don't say anything about it" applies here, it should apply to all other situations we find issue with that happened in any country we don't live, so unless you support those as well, or explain how those are any different, you're being wildly inconsistent.

3. So, if a law exists, your only option is to follow it, regardless of how ridiculous or meanspirited it may be? Bad news black people: didn't like slavery? How ....ing dare you? All those lynchings and what not? Had it coming, don't run from massah, it's the law, morons! Just because you're not strong/brave/impassioned enough to stand against laws you don't agree with doesn't mean that other people aren't, so neither me nor anyone else gives a damn if you'd stick your neck out for what you believe or not. And obviously they ARE trying to stand up for what they believe in and they ARE trying to change things in their own country, but since they're apparently not in the majority no one really gives a damn and they're having issues (much like, hey look at that, every other ....ing large social change ever), which brings me to the last point...

4. I never said I was morally superior to them, nor did I say that we should wage war on them or do anything to try to actually change it. I expressed a humanist opinion about the situation that occurred. I have every right to express my opinion (after all that is OUR culture, isn't it?) and I have every right in the world to call you out for being a and yes, being smug. Telling me I'm "good at using a search engine" when really, I knew about those things already and since they were good enforcements of what I was saying aka evidence, a concept you seem to be only vaguely familiar with, (if you want to talk down to me, I have no issue returning the favor) I linked them makes you condescending. So yeah, up yours for that. And once again, you've just repeated again "well, you only think that because of where you're from!" Yeah, there's nothing (cough empathy cough) besides where I grew up that could possibly affect my opinions on things. And the USA has NEVER had any sort of issues with oppression, or religious intolerance, or violence against minorities (religious, ethnic or otherwise). And obviously, you know exactly what kind of people I've grown up around, or the predominant viewpoint in places I've been, or where exactly I've traveled to, or what kinds of intolerance I've seen on a day to day basis in some of these places, right? Because I'm from the US, I have to have a viewpoint that is solely based on being there, right? I mean, all those "USA vs UK" things I see all over the internet have strong basis and reasons to support them, right?

Your argument sucks ass, and you can't support it for shit.

[groph]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

You think it is wrong because you were brought up to think it is wrong. You think it is cruel and unnecessary because you were brought up to think so. They were not. Their country has laws, just like any other. To them, it is not barbaric. To you, because of where you were brought up, it is.

See, a country has laws. A person breaks the law, there are clearly defined consequences for breaking said law--which they are then subjected to.

The point I was trying to make, which I thought was rather clear, is that you are holding them to a standard based on our country's (the USA's) beliefs/laws/etc.

# 1 & 2 - That's a mess of relativism and it's already been discussed. We can't excuse every act because it happens somewhere else in the world. Also, laws can be unjust. The examples have already been made. Something being written as law is not reason alone to follow it. To imprison somebody for holding beliefs that have no bearing on anybody elses lives is totalitarian. What the basic meaning behind "social justice" and "liberty," "freedom" or what have you, yeah, that's open for debate and the ideas will vary between cultures but come on, surely nobody would be in favor of locking up somebody for not believing in one of six Gods, or one of six systems. Why those six? Are those the six correct religions? I thought there was only one. Go figure.

Anyway. The title of the article is ridiculous. An atheist can't battle for religious freedom because ATHEISM ISN'T A ....ING RELIGION.

It's religious intolerance sure, but only in the sense of religious people being intolerant. Conservatives will say "you can have freedom of religion but that doesn't mean freedom FROM religion." .... right off. No, I won't bitch and gripe if I see a Christmas tree or a mosque or hear a school prayer but the second I'm threatened with prison time for "questioning" (what constitutes "questioning" is probably at the discretion of authoritarian theocrats in states like these), a religion, shit is going to hit the fan. I hate organized (not God, not Jesus, not even religious people but rather the men at the top) religion a little bit more each day. I think the church is a completely illegitimate institution. Lock me up, Indonesia.

EDIT: Okay maybe the church isn't COMPLETELY illegitimate but I'm not a fan of it.