The Zimmerman/Martin Case

[engage757]

Originally Posted by synrgy

Wow..

I humbly suggest you go back and read the first page.

To my knowledge, there's no evidence to support claims that he was a gang member. Claims that he was appear to be predicated on racial profiling.

I saw the pictures. The kid looked like a gangster. If he was wearing a business suit he may not appear that way. He was suspected of being a drug dealer and breaking into people's homes. A simple search of the internet uncovers that. He was on a ten day school suspension when he was killed. Supposedly his second of the year. Of course, we don't know why, because his lawyers had the parent's seal the files immediately. Have to portray him as a little angel. I am not saying Zimmerman was in the right by ANY means, but don't think this kid wasn't a little punk. Read his Twitter messages and check out the real pics of him. When he wasn't ten.

[engage757]

Originally Posted by synrgy

Wow..

I humbly suggest you go back and read the first page.

To my knowledge, there's no evidence to support claims that he was a gang member. Claims that he was appear to be predicated on racial profiling.

Oh yeah, and now they are saying he took a swing at a school bus driver. Again, Black America needs to stop with the racist bullshit. EVERYTIME someone is killed by someone of another color, it isn't a race-fueled killing. They are acting like Zimmerman was in the KKK or something, off on the hunt for black people, and that simply doesn't appear to be the case.

[synrgy]

Read my post again. You're making accusations that aren't supported by any evidence. Hearsay is not evidence, and typical teen misbehavior ("typical" being relative to the density and social status of one's population) does not directly translate to gang activity.

My point isn't that the killing was racially motivated. My point that is calling the kid a gangster without any empirical evidence to support the claim is racially motivated.

[McKay]

Originally Posted by Randy

Your link. None of the witness statements mention anybody actually seeing Martin slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground. Infact, of the witnesses listed, the majority consensus of non-discredited accounts list Zimmerman as dominating the altercation.

You really are cherry picking.

As flint mentioned, there's just as much evidence that Zimmerman hit his head on the ground when he fell as there is to him having his head bounced off the ground... maybe more for the former. Also, being shot in the chest at close range can kill you.

It wasn't intentional cherry picking - the last time I followed the case that was what was mentioned. If it's not supported by the evidence available anymore then consider my opinion changed.

Yes, being shot in the chest can kill. I didn't claim otherwise, my intention was to play counterweight. A great deal of this discussion is pure conjecture, as I said much earlier, we don't know enough details about what happened to question Zimmerman's innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. It's amazing to me that people are saying things like 'he should go to jail anyway'.

[Randy]

Originally Posted by engage757

Black America

You lose all right to objectively "take the high road" on a race debate if you're throwing that kinda stuff around.

[Guitarman700]

Originally Posted by engage757

Oh yeah, and now they are saying he took a swing at a school bus driver. Again, Black America needs to stop with the racist bullshit. EVERYTIME someone is killed by someone of another color, it isn't a race-fueled killing. They are acting like Zimmerman was in the KKK or something, off on the hunt for black people, and that simply doesn't appear to be the case.

I think it would be best to stick to the marketplace section, unless you want to construct arguments not based entirely around weasel words and hearsay. "They" say a lot of things. Most of it untrue gossip fed through a rumor mill so large it distorts any semblance of fact.

[flint757]

Not only that, but you are saying they are racist, but then following that with their kids all growing up to be gang bangers. Way to remain neutral

Not all minorities can go to school for free and most scholarships are private so go claim white suppression elsewhere please.

[EDIT]

Also, not a single argument in hear has been he is white/hispanic so he must have done it. There is just as much potentially bogus info on Zimmerman in a negative light as there is on Trayvon. You can not claim to being race neutral and then bash an entire race for something that most don't participate in. Do me a huge favor and grow up.

[Waelstrum]

Originally Posted by engage757

It is my personal opinion that black America needs a leader with some balls.

I thought the leader of black America was also the leader of white America, hispanic America, Asian America, Jewish America, etc...

Is your view of America really one of such clearly defined segregation? I know that the great melting pot is taking a while to heat up, but I doubt that the various ethnicities really need/have their own leaders.

Whilst I'm sure you meant no racism in your post, can you see how it could be interpreted as being highly offensive?

[Explorer]

Just out of curiosity, and to get the opinions of logical members regardless of race... is there anyone who would argue, after Martin had walked away, that Zimmerman didn't go looking for a situation, secure in the knowledge he was armed?

That seems like the one consistent fact in this, that he was the one who provoked the situation.

It also seems that Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin... and to me it sounds like he told the 911 dispatcher that he wasn't following Martin, but was.

On the recording of the call, Zimmerman is heard commenting "these assholes, they always get away. ...When Zimmerman reported that Martin had started running the dispatcher asked him if he was following and he affirmed that he was. The dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman said "OK". Zimmerman said he couldn't tell the dispatcher the address of his current location, but tells him the numbers of his street address and then at 3:35 adds "Oh crap, I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is." Asked if he "wanted to meet with the officer" Zimmerman at first agreed to the dispatcher's suggestion that he meet the police by the mailboxes,then asked, "Actually, could you have him call me, and I'll tell him where I'm at?", to which the dispatcher replied, "no problem."

It also seems to me that Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and laid his hands on Martin.

According to Crump's statement, Martin's girlfriend said that he expressed concern about a strange man following him, and she advised him to run. She says she heard Martin say "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding "What are you doing here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing and that Martin's headset suddenly went silent, leading her to believe that he had been pushed. She attempted to call him back immediately, but was unable to reach him.

According to the reported times of the calls and the calls' lengths...

• 7:09 - Zimmerman starts his four-minute call with the 911 dispatcher.
• 7:12 - Martin's girlfriend called him, and learned of the situation.
• 7:13 - Zimmerman got off the phone with 911, after telling the dispatcher that he didn't know where Martin was, and then rather than staying on with 911, he asked if they could call him back.
• 7:13 - Martin's girlfriend heard the sound of pushing, and Martin's phone went dead.

Anyone have any comments about the interlocking chronologies? Since those time records aren't really in dispute, I figure they carry more weight than witness statements, which can be notoriously unreliable.

Also please notice, none of this had any mention of race. If you need to make the passage of time about black and latino timekeeping, you're probably on the wrong forum.

[TemjinStrife]

Originally Posted by engage757

I have to toss this in here.

I am going to preface this by saying that if you see a color at all, you are a racist. EVERYONE is a racist because of our world. In a hundred years, hopefully we won't notice different shades. Everyone has had a racist idea in their head at one point or another, and if they haven't then I am fairly sure they are lying.

That being said, I am going to try to say this as nicely as possible. I am not very Politically correct, but I will try.

The media shows us all sorts of pictures of an innocent little 10 year old poor black boy with his eyes set on getting his mama out of the ghetto and with dreams of college etc. They have not portrayed that this kid was a little gangster wannabe. A gangbanger. Despite his age. We will never know the entire situation, and I am not about to try to decode that.

But the big issue here in my opinion is Lily Burk.

Never heard of her have you? See, she was a 17 year old white girl that was killed by a black fellow. Was there rioting in the streets? Nope. Were white people screaming racism? Nope.

I am sorry, but the time has come for our society to make a major shift. It is my personal opinion that black America needs a leader with some balls. This kid was a gangster and he was killed by someone with a different skin color. Who ....ing cares? Yet, the Blacks are rioting in the streets screaming racism! How many white kids have been killed by black kids? Oh, but that isn't racism, it is just an unfortunate, sad event. Obama is not leading anything right now with his statements. Black people are promoting racism right now by rioting in the streets. Black America needs to wake up. They are promoting racism a hell of a lot for people who bitch about it constantly.

Look at the bigger picture. A Black kid can go to college for free in the USA, but I can't. Why? Racism. If I get fired, I got fired. If a Black person gets fired, he can claim racism. Racism.

Noun:

• The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
• Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.

Black America needs to stop worrying about racism and such travesties of injustice and raise their children to not be gangsters. Some of my close friends are black, but you know what? They understand that the reason there even IS racism is because people want a reason to be cared about more. Little bird syndrome. Everything is owed to me, I don't have to take responsibility for my actions. Oh wait, now my gangster kid is dead. Wow, let's go riot.

My point is that I don't care. One guy killed a gangster, nobody knows the whole story, and between the media and Black America, they are making this debaucle further increase the chasm of racism in this country.

Wow dude. Pot calling kettle, erm, ...black?

That's probably one of the more offensively ignorant posts I've read recently.

[engage757]

Originally Posted by synrgy

Read my post again. You're making accusations that aren't supported by any evidence. Here-say is not evidence, and typical teen misbehavior ("typical" being relative to the density and social status of one's population) does not directly translate to gang activity.

My point isn't that the killing was racially motivated. My point that is calling the kid a gangster without any empirical evidence to support the claim is racially motivated.

ok, and I agree, there is not any direct evidence that he was. But if you look at his lawyers sealing all his school and legal records, and then you look at the direction of their case, you can see that they are trying to paint the picture of an innocent little kid that was just minding his own business and killed for no apparent reason. Why else would they seal his records? If he was such an innocent little kid (hence the only pictures being circulated through the mainstream media) then why would they not allow the reasons for his second suspension from school this year alone and his police records to be public record? Like they are for most people in a highly publicized case?

Originally Posted by Randy

You lose all right to objectively "take the high road" on a race debate if you're throwing that kinda stuff around.

I did say I suck at being politically correct! Black America is actually the accepted vernacular currently. Here ya go:
Black America Web

It is NOT an unaccepted terminology.

Originally Posted by Guitarman700

I think it would be best to stick to the marketplace section, unless you want to construct arguments not based entirely around weasel words and hearsay. "They" say a lot of things. Most of it untrue gossip fed through a rumor mill so large it distorts any semblance of fact.

Which is all that this thread is. Speaking about a case based upon nothing but what you have heard from a source other than yourself. There is not a lot of factual evidence, hence why this has become such a huge case, that and the racial influence.

Originally Posted by flint757

Not only that, but you are saying they are racist, but then following that with their kids all growing up to be gang bangers. Way to remain neutral

Not all minorities can go to school for free and most scholarships are private so go claim white suppression elsewhere please.

[EDIT]

Also, not a single argument in hear has been he is white/hispanic so he must have done it. There is just as much potentially bogus info on Zimmerman in a negative light as there is on Trayvon. You can not claim to being race neutral and then bash an entire race for something that most don't participate in. Do me a huge favor and grow up.

Some of my very dear friends are Black american/African American, whatever phrase you choose to use to describe a given race of people. I totally agree that there is plenty of bogus info circulated on both sides of the case, and my personal opinion on this particular incident is that neither parties involved were angels. All that I meant by what I said that you addressed is the same thing my friends would agree to. And have! If you look at the people and the social setting that this kid was around, then you factor in all his issues at school and the legal issues they refuse to tell us about, it makes it fairly obvious (in my opinion) that this kid was not all about being sweet an innocent... Look at his Twitter Tweets (or whatever) that he used under the name "NO_LIMIT_NI$$A".

RT @ReesyyLaTootieB: Hahaha Hoe u got USED fa yo loose ass p*ssy.! Tighten up.! #Literally

RT @fukunurhoexxx: #youthetype of b*tch that give up your p*ssy for free and think its cool #p*ssyaintfree #fb

RT @TheSoleManSB: We in need of some trees … Wea tha weed man

RT @MisunderstoodC_: Get high to balance out the lows

RT @___xMaxDee: I got game for you young hoes, don’t grow to be a dumm hoe

RT @Bombshelll_: “@La_VidaBella: I’ll beat the pu**sy up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up up”

RT @iTeachSEXOLOGY: d*ck slipping out when you got her in doggy? Either u trying to long stroke wit a short d*ck or she need to arch tha …

RT @Mitchell_Garcia: I’ll slap a girl if she said suck my toes wtf, she must be giving some great dome
for some sh*t like that òÕ òÕ òÕ

RT @ThatBitchJenny_: A f*ck n*gga is FOREVER a f*ck n*gga! Fu*ck ‘em!

RT @iAmCartoonFYF: 6 Pound 7 Pound 8 Pound #KUSH

RT @GrandadJFreeman: You know you high AF when you stop at a stop sign and wait for it to turn green

U WANNA SEE SUM CASH? WELL LEMME SEE SUM ASS

RT @KissMeEndlessly: puss ass crackas .

RT @TheyHATEShAHeED: Its crazy how i was jus pissed off,snappin…then i smoked..now im happy ha

RT @stillblazingtho: If you don’t like #weed. #YoureNotMyType

RT @SheIs_UNdefined: & When Im On That SMOKE, Im Going Super-HAM!

Its a new year lets make some changes…… f*ck dat wea da weedman at??

RT @KimmyBtchhh: Some of y’all need a Blunt!

RT @stillblazingtho: R E T W E E T If you smoke #weed.

RT @PrettyMeStarr: White People’(s) Call Police , Black People’(s) Call There Cousin


Here is the website that released them for reference:
20 Of Trayvon Martin’s Tweets That Stand Out (Language Warning) | Right Wing News


Despite the websites name, it can be found on many websites!

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

I thought the leader of black America was also the leader of white America, hispanic America, Asian America, Jewish America, etc...

Is your view of America really one of such clearly defined segregation? I know that the great melting pot is taking a while to heat up, but I doubt that the various ethnicities really need/have their own leaders.

Whilst I'm sure you meant no racism in your post, can you see how it could be interpreted as being highly offensive?

Not really man honestly. Segregation is still very much a part of life. Racial bigotry is seen in everyday life. It may not be as bad as it was years ago, but I live in the South. I watched a group of several African Americans stop traffic in front of a local business because there was a Rebel flag in the window. About two-three weeks ago. There most definitely are leaders in Black society, people that are incredibly influential for their race, like Rev. Al Sharpton etc.

Originally Posted by TemjinStrife

Wow dude. Pot calling kettle, erm, ...black?

That's probably one of the more offensively ignorant posts I've read recently.

I could direct you to far worse.




My basic point is that the MEDIA has made this a racial circus. Another Rodney King-esqe situation. It has become VERY racially charged. At this point, it isn't about one man killing another. It is about the white guy shooting black guy. Which is a shame. Not to mention, the racism from the very beginning. Listen to the 911 call. The Dispatcher asks if the guy is Black or Hispanic. Terribly racist from the start. That is all I was trying to say, it shouldn't MATTER what the colors of the people involved were, but because of the media coverage, it HAS become a racial thing.

[flint757]

I agree color should be irrelevant to the case and I'm very much against the term hate crime for similar reasons, but honestly lets say he was a thug; do people who commit crimes go around doing so 24/7? Not usually so even if he was this terrible person it doesn't make Zimmerman's credibility any better. As per what has been reported Trayvon wasn't doing anything and was then hassled, harassed or whatever term you'd like to use by Zimmerman. If you thought someone was dangerous and then approached them you were asking for trouble. The only logical reason he had the balls to do so under any circumstances is he had a gun on him and new he could use it. Vigalante justice even in the right circumstances is looked at in a poor light in our society and IMO should be kept in a poor light. Like the dispatch said (essentially) leave it to the police. He didn't want to though because as he himself said they always get away which means (since he has no mean to restrain an unarmed citizen) he had intent to kill.

[engage757]

Originally Posted by flint757

I agree color should be irrelevant to the case and I'm very much against the term hate crime for similar reasons, but honestly lets say he was a thug; do people who commit crimes go around doing so 24/7? Not usually so even if he was this terrible person it doesn't make Zimmerman's credibility any better. As per what has been reported Trayvon wasn't doing anything and was then hassled, harassed or whatever term you'd like to use by Zimmerman. If you thought someone was dangerous and then approached them you were asking for trouble. The only logical reason he had the balls to do so under any circumstances is he had a gun on him and new he could use it. Vigalante justice even in the right circumstances is looked at in a poor light in our society and IMO should be kept in a poor light. Like the dispatch said (essentially) leave it to the police. He didn't want to though because as he himself said they always get away which means (since he has no mean to restrain an unarmed citizen) he had intent to kill.

I actually totally agree with this post. He was out of line from the moment dispatch said to stop following him.

[McKay]

Originally Posted by flint757

he himself said they always get away which means (since he has no mean to restrain an unarmed citizen) he had intent to kill

Good lord.

[flint757]

^^Amazing comeback

The rest of my quote wasn't that long...

[EDIT]

To add he saw this kid who is taller and bigger than him, he is untrained, smaller and has no clue when the cops will be there, in fact he told the cop to call and ask where he was so if he got into a scuffle nobody would know the exact location. So the only factor, other than sheer stupidity, is the gun. It isn't far reaching to say, since he has no handcuffs, that he fully intended to kill someone. The only other option is he is a moron and based on what he did to his lawyers I may lean more in that direction.

[The Uncreator]

Originally Posted by TemjinStrife

Wow dude. Pot calling kettle, erm, ...black?

That's probably one of the more offensively ignorant posts I've read recently.

Actually its not all that ignorant. Typically what he is saying is unfortunately the case a lot time, its a sad truth that has been observed enough in recent decades to create a pattern of unintentional "promotion of racism".

I do feel that there are many instances where people of a color other than white (not just black) tend to play that race card a bit carelessly.

But on topic, there is not a single reason why this case should get any national attention. There is quite literally nothing exceptional about this, far worse cases of injustice exist than this.

[McKay]

Originally Posted by flint757

^^Amazing comeback

The rest of my quote wasn't that long...

[EDIT]

To add he saw this kid who is taller and bigger than him, he is untrained, smaller and has no clue when the cops will be there, in fact he told the cop to call and ask where he was so if he got into a scuffle nobody would know the exact location. So the only factor, other than sheer stupidity, is the gun. It isn't far reaching to say, since he has no handcuffs, that he fully intended to kill someone. The only other option is he is a moron and based on what he did to his lawyers I may lean more in that direction.

Again, devil's advocate but he had a CCW, I highly doubt he was brandishing the gun around or even considering using it as a first resort. I've been chased by people for the same reasons he cites before, I highly doubt I was intended harm, they just thought I was a threat and wanted to protect themselves/their property.

I've even been restrained by a pub owner and brought in front of two police cars because he thought I'd stolen his sign (I hadn't). He didn't hurt me, he just restrained me (without a firearm - it's not actually that hard). It feels like the people who treat this like Zimmerman had serious intent to hurt Trayvon have never been in that kind of situation, on either side. Then again I'm looking at this from the perspective of a British dude, I'd imagine in America any violent situation always carries the threat of armed confrontation.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by McKay

Again, devil's advocate but he had a CCW, I highly doubt he was brandishing the gun around or even considering using it as a first resort. I've been chased by people for the same reasons he cites before, I highly doubt I was intended harm, they just thought I was a threat and wanted to protect themselves/their property.

I've even been restrained by a pub owner and brought in front of two police cars because he thought I'd stolen his sign (I hadn't). He didn't hurt me, he just restrained me (without a firearm - it's not actually that hard). It feels like the people who treat this like Zimmerman had serious intent to hurt Trayvon have never been in that kind of situation, on either side. Then again I'm looking at this from the perspective of a British dude, I'd imagine in America any violent situation always carries the threat of armed confrontation.

I don't know if you read my previous post about the chronology of the two phone calls (Zimmerman with 911, Martin's girlfriend calling him), but your case is much different. Your guy wanted to get you to the police. Zimmerman hung up with 911 so the police wouldn't know what he was about to do.

And, given the timing of the two calls, Zimmerman hung up right before starting a physical altercation with Martin... after the cops had told him to stop following Martin.

There is every indication that Zimmerman was looking to start physical shit, and was attempting to hide that from the police. His hiding his continued pursuit of Martin from the police is evidence of premeditation of his intending to start something. If not, there would have been no reason for him to hide his actions and his location from the police, and to tell police to go to a different location to meet him.

Sorry, but I don't see your "pub owner taking someone to police" and Zimmerman's "hide his own actions from the police" as the same thing.

[flint757]

Originally Posted by McKay

Again, devil's advocate but he had a CCW, I highly doubt he was brandishing the gun around or even considering using it as a first resort. I've been chased by people for the same reasons he cites before, I highly doubt I was intended harm, they just thought I was a threat and wanted to protect themselves/their property.

I've even been restrained by a pub owner and brought in front of two police cars because he thought I'd stolen his sign (I hadn't). He didn't hurt me, he just restrained me (without a firearm - it's not actually that hard). It feels like the people who treat this like Zimmerman had serious intent to hurt Trayvon have never been in that kind of situation, on either side. Then again I'm looking at this from the perspective of a British dude, I'd imagine in America any violent situation always carries the threat of armed confrontation.

Have you tried restraining someone bigger and taller than you? Not easy and as far as I know he hasn't bee trained in any way to do so. Plus he chased him down because he thought he was there to steal which means he considered him dangerous/threatening. So what you are confirming is that Zimmerman wasn't intending to kill him, just incredibly stupid.

It's like I said especially since he took the police out of the equation that he either was being dumb and not thinking his decisions through or he intended to kill him. A gun can make you pretty brave. In your mind it is a last resort, but if the dude has a physical advantage and you aren't trained in hand-to-hand combat or restraint training what are you really going to do other than get yourself in physical danger where your only option is to use the gun.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by engage757

Look at his Twitter Tweets

Have you listened to kids these days? I hear far worse screaming into my ear when playing COD or Halo on XBox.

[TemjinStrife]

Originally Posted by The Uncreator

But on topic, there is not a single reason why this case should get any national attention. There is quite literally nothing exceptional about this, far worse cases of injustice exist than this.

There's not a single reason why this case should get national attention? How about the fact that a kid was shot dead by a "self-appointed neighborhood watchman" who initiated a confrontation despite being told not to. And, he wasn't arrested until weeks later.

I don't understand why cases like this don't get national attention more often, frankly. They're a lot more important to hear about than what restaurant Romney ate at or what Justin Bieber is doing with his chromed supercar.

[flint757]

^^my guess is the uncreator feels the same about beib's and Romney though

I don't know I kind of agree at largest scope it is a Florida problem just like the Castle law case in Texas are only a Texas problem; someone in California shouldn't care because they don't know anyone involved (probably) and the result of this case will have no affect on their politics. No matter what happens in this case nothing will come of it at a national level.

Me personally I just enjoy talking about these things. I enjoy talking politics so I'm certainly not upset that it garnered enough attention to start this thread.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by flint757

^^my guess is the uncreator feels the same about beib's and Romney though

I don't know I kind of agree at largest scope it is a Florida problem just like the Castle law case in Texas are only a Texas problem; someone in California shouldn't care because they don't know anyone involved (probably) and the result of this case will have no affect on their politics. No matter what happens in this case nothing will come of it at a national level.

The outcome will have effects beyond the borders and laws in the states in which they took place. To not think so is a little short sighted.

The success and failure of laws in one state helps or hurts similar laws when other states look to pass legislation. Just because the states are separate doesn't mean they're in bubbles.

When WI was looking into Concealed Carry Laws, they based much of their legislation on other states' existing laws. Both sides cited cases based on previous crimes in other states, some being favorable, and others not so much.

[TemjinStrife]

^ Exactly. There are other states looking at passing "Stand Your Ground" laws right now. What happens in Florida will affect their decisions.

[flint757]

All I'm saying is Castle law in Texas will remain no matter what (probably) and California and New York will remain buttoned up with their gun laws. I suppose for teetering states it will have more weight so I partially take back what I said.

I was just looking from where he is coming from in terms of the who cares factor. Me personally I don't care in terms of new law legislation because like I said it will have little to no effect on gun legislation in Texas where I live, but I do care from a justice and curiosity perspective. I can say the national attention forces the judiciary branch in whatever state these events occur to actually do there job well and honorably. When the spot light is off a lot of the local judges in my experience could really care less about upholding the law. In a lot of cases they have a set opinion form past cases for all future cases the lower the profile and severity something is. (From my experience/knowledge base obviously)