Illustrated rhetorical fallacies

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 04:18 PM

We are all internet people to varying degree on this board, and to internet people, especially on this sub-forum, arguments are bound to happen. There is a load of dishonest fallacies those inclined to can use, so I figure members who frequent P&CE might find this interesting.

They are also very pedagogically illustrated

Rhetorical fallacies.

ArkaneDemon · 03-31-2012, 04:35 PM

Great link, this kind of stuff needs to be kept in the back of one's head during any kind of rational discourse. I wish they would teach this kind of stuff earlier on in schools. At least in the area I've lived in, this kind of stuff isn't taught until first year university, in a course that is rarely taken anyways (critical thinking). Last term, I took it, and it was a class of roughly 100, with that class being the only section of the term. In a university with 26000 undergraduates...

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 04:43 PM

^I would love to take such a course (I have learned most of the stuff in the link myself though), might have to check if my university offers courses in logic or something similar...

ArkaneDemon · 03-31-2012, 04:46 PM

If your university has a philosophy department, it should definitely have logic, if not some other related courses. I'm taking an intro to formal logic next term, so I'm stoked.

Yeah I learned a majority of the critical thinking stuff outside of that course, but it did teach me a lot, and gave me the tools to see through the bullshit a lot easier

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 04:55 PM

We've got everything man, largest university in Scandinavia

You seem to be interested in this stuff, any chance you are involved with the skeptics movement?

ghstofperdition · 03-31-2012, 04:56 PM

Excellent post and admittedly I've done a few of these in the past. Would it be considered a fallacy in and of itself to show this link to someone that is making one of these kinds of arguments?

Randyrhoads123 · 03-31-2012, 04:57 PM

This is great! Most people are guilty of using these in their arguments, even myself, and it's nice to see them laid out in a pretty simple way so that most everyone can understand them.

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghstofperdition

Excellent post and admittedly I've done a few of these in the past. Would it be considered a fallacy in and of itself to show this link to someone that is making one of these kinds of arguments?

A weird appeal to authority maybe?

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randyrhoads123

This is great! Most people are guilty of using these in their arguments, even myself, and it's nice to see them laid out in a pretty simple way so that most everyone can understand them.

Agreed, some of these are pretty abstract, so having examples really help.

Explorer · 03-31-2012, 05:04 PM

It's not an appeal to authority to show how an argument doesn't actually address the matter at hand. Even if these fallacies are common enough to have a name, using a name for one, or explaining how one has gone wrong, doesn't rely upon any appeal to authority.

Since any claim which doesn't actually address a matter at hand can be shown to not affect the truth of that matter, showing how it doesn't address the matter doesn't rely upon any authority.

Ironic fallacy about calling out fallacies is ironic.

ArkaneDemon · 03-31-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

We've got everything man, largest university in Scandinavia

I want to live in Sweden

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

You seem to be interested in this stuff, any chance you are involved with the skeptics movement?

Alas, I'm not familiar with such a thing. Got any links or something to read, because Google isn't giving me anything definite about such a movement.

JamesM · 03-31-2012, 05:35 PM

It's been mentioned, but I'll just say this to everyone...

If you can (or haven't already...), take a Logic class.

It was awesome.

Jakke · 03-31-2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkaneDemon

I want to live in Sweden

Oldest as well, although it was mainly built so we could have a university before the danes (1477)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkaneDemon

Alas, I'm not familiar with such a thing. Got any links or something to read, because Google isn't giving me anything definite about such a movement.

It's mainly a fancy word for organized scientific skeptics, among the more famous are Penn and Teller, Carl Sagan, James Randi, Michael Shermer, and PZ Myers. A common event almost all over the world is "Skeptics in the pub", where we go out, drink and discuss pseudo-science etc.

There are usually groups in most larger cities if you are interested to know more, there are also a number of podcasts about skeptisism.

ArkaneDemon · 03-31-2012, 08:01 PM

Cool stuff. I knew what skepticism was, but I'll definitely have to check it out a bit more in depth and maybe grab some podcasts. The skeptics in the pub bit sounds interesting. At first I wasn't too convinced by it, but now it's more of a "well, why the .... not". Thanks for the info

Waelstrum · 04-01-2012, 02:05 AM

I approve of this. Many of these are pet peeves of mine, like when shampoo ads say that they contain natural ingredients. I always think that many kinds of acid occur naturally, but they probably won't be very good for your hair. Also the relativist fallacy was the bane of my existence my in senior english classes. They kept on talking about reality as though it's subjective, when IT'S ....ING NOT! YOU CAN DISCOVER UNIVERSAL TRUTHS IF YOU STUDY MATHS OR SCIENCE, MRS DAVIS! Sorry, but explaining the logical fallacies in the claims of my english teacher was a frustrating, fruitless, and thankless task. I'm angry again just remembering it.

However, did anyone else find it weird that the appeal to ignorance example was "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." It looks a bit like a shifting of the burden of proof, which they have an example of further down the page. I know that it isn't really, but it looks that way. If it said that the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." is false, and therefore there is a god, it would certainly be a burden of proof issue. I guess they're advocating the withholdment of judgement until definitive proof is given, which can lead to the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is nothing to lead me to believe there is a god.", which some would consider to mean the same as the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." In fact, I thought that if you just added a qualifying word or phrase to a couple of the examples of fallacies they would be perfectly fine statements. I guess that whoever wrote this must have been quite the pedant. (Ironic ad hominem ftw.) This probably doesn't matter, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

Oldest as well

Nice appeal to authority

Jakke · 04-01-2012, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArkaneDemon

Cool stuff. I knew what skepticism was, but I'll definitely have to check it out a bit more in depth and maybe grab some podcasts. The skeptics in the pub bit sounds interesting. At first I wasn't too convinced by it, but now it's more of a "well, why the .... not". Thanks for the info

I think it was either scottish or canadian skeptics who came up with the concept of skeptics in the pub...
Wel,, anyway, you're welcome. I have enjoyed consorting with skeptics very much, they are usually very nice people

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

I approve of this. Many of these are pet peeves of mine, like when shampoo ads say that they contain natural ingredients. I always think that many kinds of acid occur naturally but they probably won't be very good for your hair.

Arsenic is also very natural, as is mercury

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

However, did anyone else find it weird that the appeal to ignorance example was "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." It looks a bit like a shifting of the burden of proof, which they have an example of further down the page. I know that it isn't really, but it looks that way. If it said that the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." is false, and therefore there is a god, it would certainly be a burden of proof issue. I guess they're advocating the withholdment of judgement until definitive proof is given, which can lead to the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is nothing to lead me to believe there is a god.", which some would consider to mean the same as the statement "Nobody has proved to me there is a god. Therefore there is no god." In fact, I thought that if you just added a qualifying word or phrase to a couple of the examples of fallacies they would be perfectly fine statements. I guess that whoever wrote this must have been quite the pedant. (Ironic ad hominem ftw.) This probably doesn't matter, though.

You are absolutely correct, claiming that there is no god subjects you to the same burden of proof as someone who claims there is a god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

Nice appeal to authority

Did I say it was good because it was old?

Waelstrum · 04-01-2012, 06:53 AM

^ I originally typed arsenic, but I don't know what it would do to hair (it's probably of little consequence either way) so I changed it to acid.

Also, when these are taken together, it seems like you're at least implying that the oldest is the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

We've got everything man, largest university in Scandinavia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakke

Oldest as well

But I'm just being cheeky now.

Jakke · 04-01-2012, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

^ I originally typed arsenic, but I don't know what it would do to hair (it's probably of little consequence either way) so I changed it to acid.

Arsenic poisoning can cause hair loss, at least according to wiki...
But I wager acid is even more no good for hair

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

Also, when these are taken together, it seems like you're at least implying that the oldest is the best.

Impying eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

But I'm just being cheeky now.

I am not sure I like your tone young man

KingAenarion · 04-01-2012, 10:28 AM

The Appeal to Novelty just reminded me of the How I met your Mother thing where Barney goes on about how new is always better and Ted keeps showing him how he's wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

I approve of this. Many of these are pet peeves of mine, like when shampoo ads say that they contain natural ingredients. I always think that many kinds of acid occur naturally, but they probably won't be very good for your hair. Also the relativist fallacy was the bane of my existence my in senior english classes. They kept on talking about reality as though it's subjective, when IT'S ....ING NOT! YOU CAN DISCOVER UNIVERSAL TRUTHS IF YOU STUDY MATHS OR SCIENCE, MRS DAVIS! Sorry, but explaining the logical fallacies in the claims of my english teacher was a frustrating, fruitless, and thankless task. I'm angry again just remembering it.

The perfect response to that kind of relativism I feel is to show them the circular nature of their own pluralist argument.

It tends to go like this.

You: So you believe that reality and truth are subjective?
Them: Yes.
You: So there is no singular truth for anything?
Them: Yes.
You: You're sure you believe this?
Them: Yes.
You: So the truth is, there is no singular truth? That's a self cancelling argument isn't it?

Them: Yes... wait no... wait... I mean... wait... NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!

Jakke · 04-01-2012, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingAenarion

It tends to go like this.

You: So you believe that reality and truth are subjective?
Them: Yes.
You: So there is no singular truth for anything?
Them: Yes.
You: You're sure you believe this?
Them: Yes.
You: So the truth is, there is no singular truth? That's a self cancelling argument isn't it?

Them: Yes... wait no... wait... I mean... wait... NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!

Damn humanities...

Actually every humanist I have met have not understood the concept of absolute truth, this is not prejudice, but actually fact, I have not met a single one who could understand this. They have always gone "Well, that's your opinion, it might be true for somebody else.."

Bullshit. There are absolute truths, and my mother, for example, is terrible at understanding this fact. This was the source of some very heated discussions when I still lived at my parents' house.

Treeunit212 · 04-01-2012, 01:10 PM

Although I already have a somewhat well trained ear for logical fallacies, I still want to memorize this list for every time my co-workers' Ron Pauling husband tries to educate me about the New World Order and the progress of Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio's birth certificate investigation.

Nice find.

Varcolac · 04-01-2012, 01:23 PM

I like that the "Ad Hoc Rescue" category uses a Monty Python quote as the example.

Otherwise, good stuff, Captain. The logic is infallible.

ilyti · 04-01-2012, 08:57 PM

^ Damn, beat me to it!

Jakke · 04-02-2012, 06:17 PM

Ther is an excellent documentary released free on youtube called Here Be Dragons (anyone else get vibes of Terry Pratchett?), and it's about logical fallacies and critical thinking, I recommend anyone interested to check it out

groph · 04-05-2012, 12:35 PM

I don't think I saw a reductio ad hitlerum anywhere in there. This list is incomplete. Therefore Hitler, I lose.

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03-31-2012, 04:18 PM	#1
Jakke Alex Jones plz Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,473 Thanked: 90 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Illustrated rhetorical fallacies We are all internet people to varying degree on this board, and to internet people, especially on this sub-forum, arguments are bound to happen. There is a load of dishonest fallacies those inclined to can use, so I figure members who frequent P&CE might find this interesting. They are also very pedagogically illustrated Rhetorical fallacies. Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

03-31-2012, 04:35 PM	#2
ArkaneDemon SS.org Regular Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Frozen Wastelands of the North Posts: 814 Thanked: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Great link, this kind of stuff needs to be kept in the back of one's head during any kind of rational discourse. I wish they would teach this kind of stuff earlier on in schools. At least in the area I've lived in, this kind of stuff isn't taught until first year university, in a course that is rarely taken anyways (critical thinking). Last term, I took it, and it was a class of roughly 100, with that class being the only section of the term. In a university with 26000 undergraduates... ghstofperdition likes this. On a side note the whole idea of cheating in music is absurd in my opinion. It's impossible to cheat in an artform that has no rules. - Durero Check out some of my stuff: (a bit of EDM, EP coming in May or June)http://soundcloud.com/volumevlad

03-31-2012, 04:43 PM	#3
Jakke Alex Jones plz Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,473 Thanked: 90 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^I would love to take such a course (I have learned most of the stuff in the link myself though), might have to check if my university offers courses in logic or something similar... Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

03-31-2012, 04:46 PM	#4
ArkaneDemon SS.org Regular Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Frozen Wastelands of the North Posts: 814 Thanked: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	If your university has a philosophy department, it should definitely have logic, if not some other related courses. I'm taking an intro to formal logic next term, so I'm stoked. Yeah I learned a majority of the critical thinking stuff outside of that course, but it did teach me a lot, and gave me the tools to see through the bullshit a lot easier On a side note the whole idea of cheating in music is absurd in my opinion. It's impossible to cheat in an artform that has no rules. - Durero Check out some of my stuff: (a bit of EDM, EP coming in May or June)http://soundcloud.com/volumevlad

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03-31-2012, 04:55 PM	#5
Jakke Alex Jones plz Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,473 Thanked: 90 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	We've got everything man, largest university in Scandinavia You seem to be interested in this stuff, any chance you are involved with the skeptics movement? Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

03-31-2012, 04:56 PM	#6
ghstofperdition One sexy bitch Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lancaster, CA Posts: 3,611 Thanked: 54 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	Excellent post and admittedly I've done a few of these in the past. Would it be considered a fallacy in and of itself to show this link to someone that is making one of these kinds of arguments? Not sure how to interact with transgendered people? Read this: http://tranifesto.com/transgender-fa...-trans-people/ Oh and if you wanna hear some super horrible recordings and mixes, check out my soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/jessica-macarthur "You can .... anything....how do you think evolution happened?" - mcd

03-31-2012, 04:57 PM	#7
Randyrhoads123 Got a 7 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Overland Park, KS Posts: 440 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	This is great! Most people are guilty of using these in their arguments, even myself, and it's nice to see them laid out in a pretty simple way so that most everyone can understand them.

03-31-2012, 05:04 PM	#10
Explorer He seldomly knows... Join Date: May 2009 Location: Formerly from Cucaramacatacatirimilcote... Posts: 3,695 Thanked: 40 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	It's not an appeal to authority to show how an argument doesn't actually address the matter at hand. Even if these fallacies are common enough to have a name, using a name for one, or explaining how one has gone wrong, doesn't rely upon any appeal to authority. Since any claim which doesn't actually address a matter at hand can be shown to not affect the truth of that matter, showing how it doesn't address the matter doesn't rely upon any authority. Ironic fallacy about calling out fallacies is ironic. ArkaneDemon and Jakke like this. If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more? "Pay no attention to his long winded posts... (Explorer) seldomly knows what he's talking about." Adam Of Angels "Actual knowledge and a google bookmark are very different things." Anonymous neg-repper

03-31-2012, 05:35 PM	#12
JamesM The Armada Join Date: May 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 6,925 Thanked: 86 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	It's been mentioned, but I'll just say this to everyone... If you can (or haven't already...), take a Logic class. It was awesome. Cloudyhead. Facebook//Twitter//Bandcamp Watch:1,2,3,4,5 Debut Album, Abstraction out now!

03-31-2012, 08:01 PM	#14
ArkaneDemon SS.org Regular Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Frozen Wastelands of the North Posts: 814 Thanked: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Cool stuff. I knew what skepticism was, but I'll definitely have to check it out a bit more in depth and maybe grab some podcasts. The skeptics in the pub bit sounds interesting. At first I wasn't too convinced by it, but now it's more of a "well, why the .... not". Thanks for the info On a side note the whole idea of cheating in music is absurd in my opinion. It's impossible to cheat in an artform that has no rules. - Durero Check out some of my stuff: (a bit of EDM, EP coming in May or June)http://soundcloud.com/volumevlad

04-01-2012, 01:10 PM	#21
Treeunit212 Not your bro, bro. Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Traverse City, MI Posts: 481 Thanked: 11 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Although I already have a somewhat well trained ear for logical fallacies, I still want to memorize this list for every time my co-workers' Ron Pauling husband tries to educate me about the New World Order and the progress of Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio's birth certificate investigation. Nice find. "Far best is he who knows all things himself; Good, he that hearkens when men counsel right; But he who neither knows, nor lays to heart another's wisdom, is a useless wight." -Aristotle http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bury-T...app_2405167945 http://www.reverbnation.com/burythecreator

04-01-2012, 01:23 PM	#22
Varcolac Frets? What frets? Join Date: May 2009 Location: London Posts: 1,505 Thanked: 13 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I like that the "Ad Hoc Rescue" category uses a Monty Python quote as the example. Otherwise, good stuff, Captain. The logic is infallible. ilyti likes this. Carpathia : progressive extreme metal from London. Free track! Click here! SchecterWhore: "Development, phase four. Beethoven takes you for a ride through space in his Pontiac Trans Am."

04-01-2012, 08:57 PM	#23
ilyti Lazy Ryebread Viking Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,580 Thanked: 17 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^ Damn, beat me to it!

04-02-2012, 06:17 PM	#24
Jakke Alex Jones plz Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In a van... DOWN' BY THE RIVER! Posts: 3,473 Thanked: 90 $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Jakke is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Ther is an excellent documentary released free on youtube called Here Be Dragons (anyone else get vibes of Terry Pratchett?), and it's about logical fallacies and critical thinking, I recommend anyone interested to check it out Treeunit212 likes this. Member of the Injustice League with Pooluke41, -42 and BrainArt I am Dr. Disappointinator, after an accident with a radioactive school teacher I now possess the ability to instantly crush all hopes and desires of any individual at any given time Emotions are for women, and gay children Forumites against lazy neg-reps: If you are going to neg me, don't be a lazy asshole. I want to hear what kind of idiot I've been in all the glorious details

04-05-2012, 12:35 PM	#25
groph surrounded by chairs Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 2,398 Thanked: 57 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I don't think I saw a reductio ad hitlerum anywhere in there. This list is incomplete. Therefore Hitler, I lose.

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