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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:44 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by ghstofperdition View Post
I learned a lot from tnis thread, and most of what I've learned has little to do with the OP. It's a stern reminder that transpeople have many more dark days ahead. It's good to have a bit more clarity on where people stand; not just in this forum but in general. I see victories like what this girl achieved be blackened by hate, narrow-mindedness and just plain mean-spiritedness. It's like watching old footage of the civil rights protests all over again. Same hate, just repackaged and relabeled. It's like the old saying goes: "Those that do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it." Well after gays and transgenders win their equal rights, I can't help but wonder who's gonna be America's scapegoat and punching bag next. Midgets? Senior citizens? I know Muslims are getting some pretty good flak from the right-wingers. Most likely them.

Murrica. .... yeah.
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Comparing everything to the civil rights movement does not, in fact, make it so. I'm sorry that everyone is not born a beige hermaphrodite, so that we can all be equally the same exact person, but it's just not the case. You may see hate, narrow mindedness, and mean spiritedness, but I, at the same time, do not see this as a victory of any sort, for anyone. I wish, for at least a little while, we could all get beyond trying to be exactly the same and beyond trying to cram every square peg into a round hole and enjoy and appreciate the ways that we are different. Does that sound like I'm looking for a scapegoat to you? I'd have a lot more respect for this woman if she did not use deceit and lies to achieve what you view as a "victory."

None of this... NONE OF IT... means I have slightly less than the utmost respect for how you choose to live your life, or how anyone else chooses to live their lives.
Once again he speaks the truth..

And secondly..I cannot STAND when gays etc compare their issue with the civil rights movement. It is NOT the same and it's insulting to even suggest it. If you're honestly going to compare a man not being allowed to be in a woman's pageant to relatives as recent as in my mother and grandmother's lifetime being lynched and killed in front of their families, and own boyfriend watching a cross burning on his lawn as a child just because he's biracial..then you have SERIOUSLY missed out on the issue.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:39 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by ghstofperdition View Post
I learned a lot from tnis thread, and most of what I've learned has little to do with the OP. It's a stern reminder that transpeople have many more dark days ahead. It's good to have a bit more clarity on where people stand; not just in this forum but in general. I see victories like what this girl achieved be blackened by hate, narrow-mindedness and just plain mean-spiritedness. It's like watching old footage of the civil rights protests all over again. Same hate, just repackaged and relabeled. It's like the old saying goes: "Those that do not learn from their history are doomed to repeat it." Well after gays and transgenders win their equal rights, I can't help but wonder who's gonna be America's scapegoat and punching bag next. Midgets? Senior citizens? I know Muslims are getting some pretty good flak from the right-wingers. Most likely them.

Murrica. .... yeah.
What rights do I (even though I am a foreigner, but we'll say I'm american) have that a transperson don't have?




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Unread 04-16-2012, 09:04 AM   #203
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People don't make comparisons to the Civil Rights movement just out of whimsy. While transpeople, Jakke, legally have the right to get married in most states in America, run-of-the-mill gay people don't, so I suppose transpeople don't have any rights you wouldn't.

I think the main message of the Civil Rights movement went beyond a simple wish to reform laws. It was for the most part a desire to be treated as equals in every sense of the word, beyond the legal ramifications. Separate, but equal, does that ring a bell? So when people from the LGBT community make those comparisons, they actually aren't just making .... up. Hate crimes against LGBT people exist, Drak. It may not be as widespread as the institutionalized, centuries-old evil that black people here faced, but then again, their numbers are fewer and they've got the benefit of this somehow hated political correctness behind them. Hatred, intolerance, and discrimination against them exists. Why should they not liken their experience to one that's both relevant and recent in America's cultural heritage?

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Unread 04-16-2012, 10:13 AM   #204
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No one's rights were infringed upon. I Really dont understand why everyone is so up in arms about this.

HE (yes HE) was in a competition for women. Thatd be like a male stripper applying to a female strip club and getting mad for not being hired.

They have transgender pageants. sHE should go do one of them, because sHE would win all of them.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 10:40 AM   #205
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It took me 9 pages to come up with something witty...

Why ban her if the rest of the girls are just as fake? Fake ...., fake butts, fake faces, etc..

huzzah!

I'm going byebye now

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Unread 04-16-2012, 10:41 AM   #206
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People don't make comparisons to the Civil Rights movement just out of whimsy. While transpeople, Jakke, legally have the right to get married in most states in America, run-of-the-mill gay people don't, so I suppose transpeople don't have any rights you wouldn't.

I think the main message of the Civil Rights movement went beyond a simple wish to reform laws. It was for the most part a desire to be treated as equals in every sense of the word, beyond the legal ramifications. Separate, but equal, does that ring a bell? So when people from the LGBT community make those comparisons, they actually aren't just making .... up. Hate crimes against LGBT people exist, Drak. It may not be as widespread as the institutionalized, centuries-old evil that black people here faced, but then again, their numbers are fewer and they've got the benefit of this somehow hated political correctness behind them. Hatred, intolerance, and discrimination against them exists. Why should they not liken their experience to one that's both relevant and recent in America's cultural heritage?
Because most of the people who try to liken them are people who haven't dealt with racism. As a gay black person..the first thing people notice is my race. Being gay is something people don't have to know if I choose not to tell them, but being black is something I can't hide and it's something many of my relatives have died for. A gay person has many opportunities, especially if they're white that a straight black person still doesn't have. Do you think all the very financially successful gays, gay power couples, etc are living the "struggle" that black people faced? To even imply such a thing is ignorant at best. I understand that gay people have it difficult in some aspects, but there are alternatives and things that can be done..however you can't do anything about being black..just ask all the people who were castrated, lynched, raped, beaten, humiliated, terrorized, and killed..I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate well-to-do white gay guys claiming they have it just as hard.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:36 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis View Post
Because most of the people who try to liken them are people who haven't dealt with racism. As a gay black person..the first thing people notice is my race. Being gay is something people don't have to know if I choose not to tell them, but being black is something I can't hide and it's something many of my relatives have died for. A gay person has many opportunities, especially if they're white that a straight black person still doesn't have. Do you think all the very financially successful gays, gay power couples, etc are living the "struggle" that black people faced? To even imply such a thing is ignorant at best. I understand that gay people have it difficult in some aspects, but there are alternatives and things that can be done..however you can't do anything about being black..just ask all the people who were castrated, lynched, raped, beaten, humiliated, terrorized, and killed..I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate well-to-do white gay guys claiming they have it just as hard.
This actually matches a post I said earlier where a comparison/analogy leads to an emotional response dude. And even though you are right for sure that black people had it bad for a very long time, comparing yourself to their cause is just as insulting because things are not nearly as bad today as it was back then either.

I know people who couldn't be hired if they found out they were gay and there are instance of people getting the .... kicked out of them for being gay or any other form of LGBT so I disagree with you. Just because it is smaller numbers does not mean it isn't similar. You in fact are disgracing another culture just because you think it is worse. Yes someone can hide being gay, but that is ridiculous logic to say it just doesn't matter as much as someone else's struggles.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:37 PM   #208
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No one's rights were infringed upon. I Really dont understand why everyone is so up in arms about this.

HE (yes HE) was in a competition for women. Thatd be like a male stripper applying to a female strip club and getting mad for not being hired.

They have transgender pageants. sHE should go do one of them, because sHE would win all of them.
The topic now has kind of transcended past this pageant and onto social issues and definitions, etc. of similar topic.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:50 PM   #209
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Can't be bothered to dig through this whole thread but all the HE talk is really disheartening.

I've known people who were transgender before and (at least the few I've been acquainted with) considered themselves to be the gender they migrated to. Their mindset was there and they just felt like they were born in the wrong body or at least born with the wrong plumbing or whatever. Now, it may not have been what Nimgoble was referring to but what I gathered from his arguments earlier (which I thought were some of the strongest in this thread), there are a LOT of things that factor into what "makes you a boy or a girl" and I, personally, find all of the "HE" this and "HE" that stuff to be pretty offensive.

Irrespective of the debate over the contest (which is now moot anyway), if somebody feels like a certain sex on the inside and they go through that much trouble to coordinate that appearance on the outside, they deserve a little more respect.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:20 PM   #210
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Can't be bothered to dig through this whole thread but all the HE talk is really disheartening.

I've known people who were transgender before and (at least the few I've been acquainted with) considered themselves to be the gender they migrated to. Their mindset was there and they just felt like they were born in the wrong body or at least born with the wrong plumbing or whatever. Now, it may not have been what Nimgoble was referring to but what I gathered from his arguments earlier (which I thought were some of the strongest in this thread), there are a LOT of things that factor into what "makes you a boy or a girl" and I, personally, find all of the "HE" this and "HE" that stuff to be pretty offensive.

Irrespective of the debate over the contest (which is now moot anyway), if somebody feels like a certain sex on the inside and they go through that much trouble to coordinate that appearance on the outside, they deserve a little more respect.
There's actually surprisingly little "he" talk, considering the topic and venue. Most people, even those of us who disagree with her being in the pageant or her methods to do so, seem pretty accepting of the fact that she's living her life as a woman.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:32 PM   #211
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Depends how you define "surprisingly little". I prefaced with "can't be bothered to dig through this whole thread" just to cover my ass on some specifics I might've missed but I've been keeping tabs on this one and had the opposite opinion... I'm actually surprised at the very thinly veiled bigotry TBH.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:01 PM   #212
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Depends how you define "surprisingly little". I prefaced with "can't be bothered to dig through this whole thread" just to cover my ass on some specifics I might've missed but I've been keeping tabs on this one and had the opposite opinion... I'm actually surprised at the very thinly veiled bigotry TBH.
Ya it is about half and half I'd say. Although in the middle of the thread it really wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is now if my memory serves well.

In terms of the thinly veiled bigotry it feels more like hypocrisy to me which is just as bad. Some of the rebuttals feel like when someone says, "because you live in a first world country you have nothing to complain about", in style like the civil rights stuff. Just because someone had it worse at a point in time does not mean someone else should be ignored.

As a counter argument to something mentioned earlier when it was said that someone can hide being gay, what if someone back in the 60's said you could just put on a coat of white skin so don't worry about us being racist (if that were possible). You'd be offended and find that that is indeed not a fix for the problem, it is barely a band aid (not at all really). Sounds ridiculous doesn't it, but that is what some are basically suggesting for LGBT people.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:19 PM   #213
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As a counter argument to something mentioned earlier when it was said that someone can hide being gay, what if someone back in the 60's said you could just put on a coat of white skin so don't worry about us being racist (if that were possible).
I don't think that they meant that you can hide it. eg: stay in the closet.
I think they meant that it's not a notable trait that you can see. Unless you are told that that person is gay you wouldn't know it. While being black is something you can't hide.

EDIT: I wrote the wrong thing..... Just noticed it this morning..



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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:20 PM   #214
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Thats not what drakkar was saying at all. He was just saying you cant compare discrimination blacks faced with discrimination lgbt peeps do today.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:24 PM   #215
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Thats not what drakkar was saying at all. He was just saying you cant compare discrimination blacks faced with discrimination lgbt peeps do today.
And my point is that doesn't diminish the problem in the slightest...

[EDIT]
That'd also be like saying Jews have suffered far more than black people so that didn't matter either though as another comparisons. Which again would be absolutely ridiculous. When this come to people being treated worse/less than human it does not change the fact that someone is being treated unfairly and perhaps violently abused in many cases.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:27 PM   #216
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Yeah, its just an offensive thing to say is all.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:32 PM   #217
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Yeah, its just an offensive thing to say is all.
Touchy subjects always come across as offensive on both sides usually.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #218
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Depends how you define "surprisingly little". I prefaced with "can't be bothered to dig through this whole thread" just to cover my ass on some specifics I might've missed but I've been keeping tabs on this one and had the opposite opinion... I'm actually surprised at the very thinly veiled bigotry TBH.
I'd be interested is knowing what you're considering to be thinly veiled bigotry.
For the most part, the only statements I've seen bigotry in have been contributed by people who've hopped into the thread, trolled some closed minded crap, then ran.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 06:15 PM   #219
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I'd be interested is knowing what you're considering to be thinly veiled bigotry.
For the most part, the only statements I've seen bigotry in have been contributed by people who've hopped into the thread, trolled some closed minded crap, then ran.
Ya that is the bulk of it

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Unread 04-16-2012, 06:41 PM   #220
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...I see victories like what this girl achieved be blackened by hate, narrow-mindedness and just plain mean-spiritedness...
I don't think there has really been that much hate in this thread. There have definitely been some insensitive posts (and I in no way condone them), but most people have worded their posts nicely. Saying it in a negative way such as saying " transgender people are freaks and will never in any way be male/female" is hateful and terrible, or saying something with no backing whatsoever (even nicely) is hate, like if someone says "I don't believe black people are as intelligent as white people," but nicely stating that even after a sex change a transgender person still has his/her original chromosomes is not really hateful and the people generally mean well.

EDIT: just realized the same topic was addressed in the posts directly above mine. If you were only referring to the couple of posts that were blatantly hateful then we are on the same page, so this would be invalid.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 07:24 PM   #221
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This actually matches a post I said earlier where a comparison/analogy leads to an emotional response dude. And even though you are right for sure that black people had it bad for a very long time, comparing yourself to their cause is just as insulting because things are not nearly as bad today as it was back then either.

I know people who couldn't be hired if they found out they were gay and there are instance of people getting the .... kicked out of them for being gay or any other form of LGBT so I disagree with you. Just because it is smaller numbers does not mean it isn't similar. You in fact are disgracing another culture just because you think it is worse. Yes someone can hide being gay, but that is ridiculous logic to say it just doesn't matter as much as someone else's struggles.
Similar in some ways..yes..but trying to pretend they're on the same level is an out and out lie. I'm not comparing myself to anything..as I've had a pretty good life on both fronts, however my close relatives were actually around during those times and they had it a lot worse. Getting into a fight for being gay is nowhere on the same level.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 08:34 PM   #222
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Similar in some ways..yes..but trying to pretend they're on the same level is an out and out lie. I'm not comparing myself to anything..as I've had a pretty good life on both fronts, however my close relatives were actually around during those times and they had it a lot worse. Getting into a fight for being gay is nowhere on the same level.
That is fair

By no means do I think they are the same either just that the smaller size doesn't make it any less bad.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 10:08 PM   #223
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Guys, I wish we could all agree that Drak's view on the matter (that it's silly to comparing this issue to the civil rights movement) is completely right. If a gay black man has an opinion on whether being black or being gay is more of a challenge, take it from him. He has first hand experience with both, so his opinion should carry more weight with everyone. :2cents:
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Unread 04-17-2012, 09:21 PM   #224
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they can't let them compete because if straight men don't feel safe jerking off while looking at pictures of the contestants, then the entire thing serves no real purpose. FYI, I would probably take her out to dinner and see where it goes from there
This is part of the point I've been trying to make. It's an image contest. It's a celebration or a public spectacle of a beauty standard, of a commodified, plastered-on-billboards-everywhere-image-used-to-sell-products representation of an idealized female form. It has, in my mind and in this sense, NOTHING to do with anything "natural" about being a woman or "natural" femininity or anything of the sort. There are no men in the contest much as there are no matronly looking large women you'd see in the Ukraine mashing potatoes (I'm sure this is an accurate stereotype , Ukranians feel free to pelt me with rotten produce). Going by this logic, it doesn't matter in the least what the rules are, or whether or not a private organization has the right to set its own rules (I think one should, but don't consider things in a vacuum), or anything like that since it's really just about an outward appearance.

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It's odd how she went from being a woman to some sort of fetish object so quickly in this thread.
Perceptive post is perceptive.

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You mean 100% freak.

Scary part is he had a dick, then chopped it off and tried to make himself into a girl. But he will never be a real woman. So that is the scary part.
Gonna call this one out. Blatant transphobia. Go ahead and have the opinion, but I hope you're aware that calling someone a "freak" isn't a good way to respect someone else's humanity and dignity.

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It's a man. No amount of surgery, chemicals or makeup will change that. We coddle people far too much. This person needs therapy, not a ....... Do not mistake transgender with homosexuality. There is huge differences there.

No, the buck should stop within the rules.
Now, I guess one could say that I shouldn't make an example out of Ms. Talackova in the sense that a spectacle was made (in some people's eyes, not mine) out of the Montreal Massacre as a rallying cry for feminism - we shouldn't use Talackova as a "poster boy" for transgendered oppression/repression/disadvantaging/whatever, but this is an example of such oppression. This is the background leading up to this statement, and I apologize if I am putting words in your mouth, if I am then consider this to just be a thinking point: does "coddling" = advocating for oppressed people? IE - are we coddling black people through affirmative action, making sure their lives are cushy and cozy and they're guaranteed a job? That's closer to a description of white people (at least in better economic times, yeah it's harder to find a job now no matter who you are) if anything.


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I'd like to say one more thing about this: She could have competed in a trans pageant. But she decided to misrepresent herself in the application forms for this pageant, and then this media storm happened, eventually leading to her reinstatement to the competition.

What is the prevailing view of this situation of the women who compete in trans pageants? Wouldn't they be pissed off that they weren't given the chance first? That this noob came in and manipulated the circumstances to make sure she's the FIRST TRANS IN MISS UNIVERSE!! Again, whether she wins or not, she's basically exactly like Neil Armstrong.
Did she misrepresent herself if there wasn't an option for anything other than male or female in the registration process? I don't think she was being intentionally deceitful - "HAHA, I'M GOING TO GET A SEX CHANGE AND COMPETE IN A BEAUTY PAGEANT JUST TO TROLL THOSE SUCKERS!" I'd think she was being genuine, she identifies as a woman, she got the surgery to look like a woman, she even went as far as to look like the kind of woman who would be in such a pageant; I don't think she was misrepresenting herself. So could a cisperson participate in a trans pageant? Well I guess not, and that's an interesting thing to think about.

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Which, in my opinion, should be the case. I'm sorry, I'm incredibly open minded, but to pretend that a transgendered woman is going to appeal to the general audience of this is ludicrous. It's simply not the right venue. Again, this ideal that everyone has a right to be included in whatever they want is utterly silly, in my opinion. I'm a huge proponent of individuals' rights to live their lives as they choose, but what's next? A furry attempting to take part in the Westminster dog show? People who are into pony play trying to get a slot at horse races? Sorry, the universe is not all inclusive and, frankly, that's okay.
First bolded line - yeah and that's the problem. People are going to be repulsed by a trans person and that's what advocates, trans people and their allies are trying to combat

Second line - yes it is silly, but we're talking about a human body that gives off every impression that it is a female, and one that conforms to the established order of "what men and women find attractive" so in this case it's not an incidence of a beluga whale suing NASA because it can't be a rocket scientist. Your statement sounds like an appeal to slippery slopes. It's not silly for people to want to be included in things on reasonable grounds, now where you draw that line is up for debate, yes.

Third line - that IS a slippery slope, and it also calls into question my objection with the first bolded point. I know these were just examples, but a furry wanting to enter in a dog competition would be met with scorn because everybody thinks furries are ....ing weirdos where in reality their sexual practice harms nobody as long as its consensual. No, the universe isn't all inclusive but that's no excuse to be bigoted towards each other over things that are largely beyond the control of individuals in question.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 09:39 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by groph View Post
a beluga whale suing NASA because it can't be a rocket scientist.

I'm curious, did you just think of that?


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