Transgender 'Miss Universe; Canada' Finalist Disqualified

[Pooluke41]

Originally Posted by pink freud

That "definition" exists because our society is masculine, thus "absence of penis" means "female.".

And an Abscence of a Vagina means Man...

[pink freud]

Originally Posted by Pooluke41

And an Abscence of a Vagina means Man...

Not in the subjective mindset of our culture. We're very male-oriented. Our language is masculine, referring to things as female is usually in the context of ownership. It creates a paradigm where maleness is the aspiration, and things that detract from it are lesser. It's not equal, as your post implies.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Gothic Headhunter

In some states, you're not even considered a person at that point and can be aborted. Saying every man used to be a woman is like saying every person used to be an ape. In therory, you're right, but we all know that people aren't apes and men aren't women. In essence, we're are all elements. Like carbon. But you wouldn't go up to someone and say "Hello, carbon" Because we're also made up of other things. Because we change over time. I wonder if people like you call Germany the Holy Roman Empire.

Sorry, but a mass of cells the size of a pea is not a person. If you are refering to late state abortions, my apologies.

It's not even correct on a technical level. A man is never a woman except purely on a visual level. At the moment of conception it is decided if the future child is going to be male or female, this canadian definition ignores how things really are, and puts up an arbitrary standard. It's really an example of what happens when layman politicans decide these things.

It's just as Pink Freud says (and I did laugh at the pun), absence of penis does not mean female by definition.

[matt397]

Originally Posted by Powermetalbass

And this is why Canada is better than America. Do some research. When concieved we are all concieved as women. Later a man is created by adding the proper bits. So in essence every man on earth is actually a woman, so if a man gets a sex change to a woman they are in the right and every hate mongerer is in the wrong.

Please don't tarnish the name of my beautiful maple syrup and beaver filled country with your ill-informed statements, it makes us all look bad.

[Gothic Headhunter]

Originally Posted by Jakke

Sorry, but a mass of cells the size of a pea is not a person. If you are refering to late state abortions, my apologies.

It's not even correct on a technical level. A man is never a woman except purely on a visual level. At the moment of conception it is decided if the future child is going to be male or female, this canadian definition ignores how things really are, and puts up an arbitrary standard. It's really an example of what happens when layman politicans decide these things.

It's just as Pink Freud says (and I did laugh at the pun), absence of penis does not mean female by definition.

I was stating that according to some people, the state of a fetus that he is talking about is not considered a person. I was not aware that gender was decided at the moment of conception, thanks for the info! I probably should've done more research before posting.

[flint757]

Originally Posted by Gothic Headhunter

I was stating that according to some people, the state of a fetus that he is talking about is not considered a person. I was not aware that gender was decided at the moment of conception, thanks for the info! I probably should've done more research before posting.

Well if he was a 100% right it wouldn't be possible to choose the sex of your child which it is. I don't know enough on the subject to say more and I'd end up sounding like an ass.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Gothic Headhunter

I was not aware that gender was decided at the moment of conception, thanks for the info! I probably should've done more research before posting.

No problem man

Well, to elaborate, if I may. A human egg and a sperm essentially contains one half set of chromosomes (we have a pair chromosomes of each type), because we do not "want" an unusual number of chromosomes, our bodies do not develop normally, and it can give defects like Down's syndrome (an extra chromosome of number 21 in that case).
As a man has one Y and one X chromosome, when the "proto-sperm" (I have forgotten the naturalistic name) splits into two half sets (two sperms), we get one sperm with a Y and one with an X. As a woman has two X, every egg will contain one X.
That means it depends on the sperm to give the sex of the baby, if a Y melds with the egg, it will become a boy, and if it's an X, it will become a girl.

Originally Posted by flint757

Well if he was a 100% right it wouldn't be possible to choose the sex of your child which it is. I don't know enough on the subject to say more and I'd end up sounding like an ass.

But then we're talking genetic manipulation, which is a completely different cup of tea. A very interesting cup nonetheless

[ilyti]

Originally Posted by Pooluke41

You know, I could say that that Squier is a Fender just because it's made by Fender, All I need to do is add some new parts then it will be just like a Fender.
But it's still not a Fender, it's an imitation, a replica, (That's not to say that i'm likening transgendered people to replicas... Don't hit me ghstofperdition.. )

IMHO, as much as you want to call that squier a fender, it's not a fender, even if you modify it, it's still a squier, so don't try to tell me it is a Fender USA Custom. It's a fender you modified. By all means tell people that it's a good strat and it plays well. But don't tell someone that it's something that it's not. (I mean this is the most least transphobic way possible...)

Analogy is spot-on..

OK, so this transwoman is now allowed to COMPETE in the pageant. But its only because this became a news item and generated controversy. They decided to rescind that rule so they don't look bigoted or prejudiced against transpeople. But she will never be in the top three or anything. It's just politics. Of course, I could be wrong, but I doubt I'll be watching the pageant to see the score.

[ghstofperdition]

I see a great deal of opinion in here on what being transgender is, yet nobody is providing fact. Allow me to rectify this (I'll even lay my own personal experience with this to the side for a moment so that this can be done as close to being non-biased as I can be):

Let's start with the definition of Gender Identity Disorder:
Gender identity | Define Gender identity at Dictionary.com

Definition

The psychological diagnosis gender identity disorder (GID) is used to describe a male or female that feels a strong identification with the opposite sex and experiences considerable distress because of their actual sex.

So what is all this mean? (from the same article):

Gender identity disorder can affect children, adolescents, and adults. Individuals with gender identity disorder have strong cross-gender identification. They believe that they are, or should be, the opposite sex. They are uncomfortable with their sexual role and organs and may express a desire to alter their bodies. While not all persons with GID are labeled as transsexuals, there are those who are determined to undergo sex change procedures or have done so, and, therefore, are classified as transsexual. They often attempt to pass socially as the opposite sex. Transsexuals alter their physical appearance cosmetically and hormonally, and may eventually undergo a sex-change operation.
Children with gender identity disorder refuse to dress and act in sex-stereotypical ways. It is important to remember that many emotionally healthy children experience fantasies about being a member of the opposite sex. The distinction between these children and gender identity disordered children is that the latter experience significant interference in functioning because of their cross-gender identification. They may become severely depressed, anxious, or socially withdrawn.

Sex and Gender are the same thing you say? Not according to medical professionals...:
Medscape: Medscape Access

Sex and gender

In the English language, the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably in the vernacular. However, in a medical and technically scientific sense, these words are not synonymous. Increasingly, the term gender is being accepted to define psychophysiologic processes involved in identity and social role. Therefore, it is not uncommon to hear references to "gender" by professionals from numerous disciplines, including medicine, psychology, anthropology, and social science. Gender comes from the Latin word genus, meaning kind or race. It is defined by one's own identification as male, female, or intersex; gender may also be based on legal status, social interactions, public persona, personal experiences, and psychologic setting.
Sex, from the Latin word sexus, is defined by the gonads, or potential gonads, either phenotypically or genotypically. It is generally assigned at birth by external genital appearance, due to the common assumption that this represents chromosomal or internal anatomic status. When an intersex condition is noted in a newborn, one sex is often chosen with the intention of simplifying social interactions and rearing.
A person's sex is a primary state of anatomic or physiologic parameters. A person's gender is a conclusion reached in a broad sense when individual gender identity and gender role are expressed. An often-used phrase to point out the difference, while an oversimplification, has some merit when dealing with these definitions: Sexual identity is in the perineum; gender identity is in the cerebrum. Increasingly, the more subjective sense of gender identity takes precedence in evaluating patients’ needs. In instances when a discrepancy exists between sex and gender, compassion and empathy are essential to foster better understanding and an appropriate relationship between the physician and the patient. Conceptually, professionals dealing with development may fairly state that sex is biologically determined, whereas gender is culturally determined.
Note that just as gender and sex are not interchangeable terms, neither are gender development and sexual development interchangeable. Physiologic sexual development progresses through distinct stages from the neonatal period through infancy, childhood, puberty and adolescence, and adulthood. Such physiologic change is distinguishable from gender-related behaviors during each of these stages. The sexual identity that emerges beyond childhood is very clearly a separate entity from gender identity. Aspects of physical sexual growth, eroticism, and eventual sexuality, although closely related to gender, should not necessarily be used to draw conclusions about a patient's gender definitions.

Also, who's to say that this contestant is not intersexed, since the article makes no mention of it. Let's read up on that shall we?:
Intersex: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

Intersex is a group of conditions where there is a discrepancy between the external genitals and the internal genitals (the testes and ovaries).
The older term for this condition, hermaphroditism, came from joining the names of a Greek god and goddess, Hermes and Aphrodite. Hermes was a god of male sexuality (among other things) and Aphrodite a goddess of female sexuality, love, and beauty.
Although the older terms are still included in this article for reference, they have been replaced by most experts (and patients and families) because they are misleading, confusing, and insensitive. Increasingly this group of conditions is being called disorders of sex development (DSDs).

Causes

Intersex can be divided into four categories:

• 46, XX Intersex
• 46, XY Intersex
• True Gonadal Intersex
• Complex or Undetermined Intersex

Each one is discussed in more detail below. Note: In many kids the cause of intersex may remain undetermined, even with modern diagnostic techniques.
46, XX Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This usually is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth. The labia ("lips" or folds of skin of the external female genitals) fuse, and the clitoris enlarges to appear like a penis. Usually this person has a normal uterus and Fallopian tubes. This condition is also called 46, XX with virilization. It used to be called female pseudohermaphroditism. There are several possible causes:

• Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (the most common cause).
• Male hormones (such as testosterone) taken or encountered by the mother during pregnancy.
• Male hormone-producing tumors in the mother. These are most often ovarian tumors. Mothers who have children with 46, XX intersex should be checked unless there is another clear cause.
• Aromatase deficiency. This one may not be noticeable until puberty. Aromatase is an enzyme that normally converts male hormones to female hormones. Too much aromatase activity can lead to excess estrogen (female hormone); too little to 46, XX intersex. At puberty these XX children, who had been raised as girls, may begin to take on male characteristics.

46, XY Intersex. The person has the chromosomes of a man, but the external genitals are incompletely formed, ambiguous, or clearly female. Internally, testes may be normal, malformed, or absent. This condition is also called 46, XY with undervirilization. It used to be called male pseudohermaphroditism. Forming normal male external genitals depends on the appropriate balance between male and female hormones; therefore, it requires the adequate production and function of male hormones. 46, XY intersex has many possible causes:

• Problems with the testes. The testes normally produce male hormones. If the testes do not form properly, it will lead to undervirilization. There are a number of possible causes for this, including XY pure gonadal dysgenesis.
• Problems with testosterone formation. Testosterone is formed through a series of steps where each requires a different enzyme. Deficiencies in any of these enzymes can result in inadequate testosterone and produce a different syndrome of 46, XY intersex. Different types of congenital adrenal hyperplasia can fall in this category.
• Problems with using testosterone. Some people have normal testes and make adequate amounts of testosterone, but still have 46, XY intersex.
  • 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. People with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency lack the enzyme needed to convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT). There are at least five different types of 5-alpha-reductase deficiency. Some of the babies have normal male genitalia, some have normal female genitalia, and many have something in between. Most change to external male genitalia around the time of puberty.
  • Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS). This is the most common cause of 46, XY intersex. Here the hormones are all normal, but the receptors to male hormones don't function properly. There are over 150 different defects that have been identified so far, and each causes a different type of AIS. AIS has also been called testicular feminization.

True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This might be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.
Complex or Undetermined Intersex Disorders of Sexual Development. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in an intersex condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.
Symptoms

The symptoms associated with intersex will depend on the underlying cause, but may include:

• Ambiguous genitalia at birth
• Micropenis
• Clitoromegaly (an enlarged clitoris)
• Partial labial fusion
• Apparently undescended testes (which may turn out to be ovaries) in boys
• Labial or inguinal (groin) masses -- which may turn out to be testes -- in girls
• Hypospadias (the opening of the penis is somewhere other than at the tip; in females, the urethra [urine canal] opens into the vagina)
• Otherwise unusual appearing genitalia at birth
• Electrolyte abnormalities
• Delayed or absent puberty
• Unexpected changes at puberty

Exams and Tests

• Chromosome analysis
• Hormone levels (for example, testosterone level)
• Hormone stimulation tests
• Electrolyte tests
• Specific molecular testing
• Endoscopic examination (to verify the absence or presence of a vagina or cervix)
• Ultrasound or MRI to evaluate whether internal sex organs are present (for example, a uterus)

Treatment

Ideally, a team of health care professionals with expertise in intersex should work together to understand and treat the child with intersex -- and to understand, counsel, and support the entire family.
Parents should understand controversies and changes in treating intersex in recent years. In the past, the prevailing opinion was that it was generally best to assign a gender as quickly as possible, often based on the external genitals rather than the chromosomal gender, and to instruct the parents to have no ambiguity in their minds as to the gender of the child. Prompt surgery was often recommended. Ovarian or testicular tissue from the other gender would be removed. In general, it was considered easier to reconstruct female genitalia than functioning male genitalia, so if the "correct" choice was not clear, the child was often assigned to be a girl.
More recently, the opinion of many experts has shifted. Greater respect for the complexities of female sexual functioning has led them to conclude that suboptimal female genitalia may not be inherently better than suboptimal male genitalia, even if the reconstruction is "easier." In addition, other factors may be more important in gender satisfaction than functioning external genitals. Chromosomal, neural, hormonal, psychological, and behavioral factors can all influence gender identity.
Many experts now urge delaying definitive surgery for as long as healthy, and ideally involving the child in the gender decision.
Clearly, intersex is a complex issue, and its treatment has short- and long-term consequences. The best answer will depend on many factors, including the specific cause of the intersex. It is best to take the time to understand the issues before rushing into a decision. An intersex support group may help acquaint families with the latest research, and may provide a community of other families, children, and adult individuals who have faced the same issues.

Hmm..... sounds to me like the societal opinion of what a man and woman SHOULD be are pretty much b.s. when compared to what the medical community has discovered. It sounds to me that what men/women are and/or should be is rooted more in Judeo-Christian beliefs rather than in solid scientific fact.

Granted she may well have not be intersexed and could very well have been born completely anatomically male. That still doesn't make her male because gender has nothing to do with her anatomic sex. Gender is in the mind, and by all accounts she always identified as female.
More research needs to be done on this, but what I've presented is regarded as pretty much fact among medical professionals. Sorry to burst some religious bubbles here, but the male/female dichotomy isn't as rigid or black and white as some of you have been suggesting.

[rectifryer]

AAAAANNNNNDDDD we're back to semantics. Its inevitable.

If the definition of gender changes to identify with culture yet the term "sex" does not, then it simply proves a modern need to delineate the terms. Nothing more, nothing less.

The rest of your intersex argument is a RED HERRING until there info regarding the possibility that should be considered. Its plain irrelevant.

But I side with your notions that people should be more open minded. I just don't think that should be done by "beating around the bush". lol.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by ghstofperdition

I see a great deal of opinion in here on what being transgender is, yet nobody is providing fact. Allow me to rectify this (I'll even lay my own personal experience with this to the side for a moment so that this can be done as close to being non-biased as I can be):

Let's start with the definition of Gender Identity Disorder:
Gender identity | Define Gender identity at Dictionary.com

So what is all this mean? (from the same article):
Sex and Gender are the same thing you say? Not according to medical professionals...:
Medscape: Medscape Access
Also, who's to say that this contestant is not intersexed, since the article makes no mention of it. Let's read up on that shall we?:
Intersex: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia


Hmm..... sounds to me like the societal opinion of what a man and woman SHOULD be are pretty much b.s. when compared to what the medical community has discovered. It sounds to me that what men/women are and/or should be is rooted more in Judeo-Christian beliefs rather than in solid scientific fact.

Granted she may well have not be intersexed and could very well have been born completely anatomically male. That still doesn't make her male because gender has nothing to do with her anatomic sex. Gender is in the mind, and by all accounts she always identified as female.
More research needs to be done on this, but what I've presented is regarded as pretty much fact among medical professionals. Sorry to burst some religious bubbles here, but the male/female dichotomy isn't as rigid or black and white as some of you have been suggesting.

Why bring up intersexed if we don't know? From what we gather..she is a man...who looks like a woman. She COULD be intersexed..she COULD be a lot of things but what the articles pretty much state is that she's a trans woman..meaning a man, who through process resembles a woman. Who's bringing religion into this? If she was born a man..then she is a man..that's not really a religious thing, just a logic thing. A sex change doesn't mean she's a woman now..and as such a man competing in a competition originally meant for real women is seen by many as unfair and I agree. Plainly..it's a competition for women..the trans woman is not, in fact a woman.

[Hollowway]

Originally Posted by matt397

Please don't tarnish the name of my beautiful beaver filled country

Is it beaver filled? I thought that was the whole issue here.

[ghstofperdition]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

Why bring up intersexed if we don't know? From what we gather..she is a man...who looks like a woman. She COULD be intersexed..she COULD be a lot of things but what the articles pretty much state is that she's a trans woman..meaning a man, who through process resembles a woman. Who's bringing religion into this? If she was born a man..then she is a man..that's not really a religious thing, just a logic thing. A sex change doesn't mean she's a woman now..and as such a man competing in a competition originally meant for real women is seen by many as unfair and I agree. Plainly..it's a competition for women..the trans woman is not, in fact a woman.

I'm not even concerned about the competition tbvh, I'm concerned with people posting things that are encroaching into transphobia territory. Yes, refusal to accept her gender identity is considered to be disrespectuful, and depending upon the degree of the statements made, transphobic. I've commented on this before in the "guitarist of Life of Agony wants to be a woman" thread. (long before I came out about it myself, so I feel bias has no place there)
If a person has a gender of female (i.e. personal gender identification) then they need to be addressed with the pronouns of their "current" gender. To refuse to do so is disrespectful, offensive, and pretty much transphobic.

She was born a woman, with male genitalia. I'm sorry to see that people are not reading what it is that I'm posting. Gender and sex are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!
Medical professionals have established this, so while I love you to pieces man, I'm gonna go with their professional opinion on this.
I can understand why people are so confused by this subject. Afaik, you're all lucky to have both your gender and biological sex match when you were born. I, among others, were not so lucky. We have a male anatomy, but our gender is that of the opposite sex. In fact, gender is actually very fluid (much like sexuality) and there is a sliding trans-scale on this. The woman in the OP is the furthers to the right on that scale (transsexual). I'm not that far on it. I'm a bit further to the left of that, but enough to the right of androgyny (directly in between male and female) that living as a girl is warranted.

As far as religion goes, I'm pointing out where (and this is entirely jmo, so ignore it as you see fit) I believe people are basing their black and white views on this subject, when science is telling them it is very much a grey area.

As for intersex, I bring that up because I attempt to look at things from all angles. People can be genetically intersexed, yet have only the genitalia of one sex or the other. It is pretty rare, but I feel that is worth looking into as a viable possibility.


So please allow me to write this again for the 1235235234523 time, gender is more heavily considered than anatomic sex in the medical community, and if people can't trust the word of the entire medical and scientific community on this, then it shows that people are allowing personal bias and prejudice to take precedence before solid fact. Kinda like how some people "believe" the earth is actually flat.


And I'm glad that she is competing. I consider it another victory towards equality between trans and cis persons.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by ghstofperdition

I'm not even concerned about the competition tbvh, I'm concerned with people posting things that are encroaching into transphobia territory. Yes, refusal to accept her gender identity is considered to be disrespectuful, and depending upon the degree of the statements made, transphobic. I've commented on this before in the "guitarist of Life of Agony wants to be a woman" thread. (long before I came out about it myself, so I feel bias has no place there)
If a person has a gender of female (i.e. personal gender identification) then they need to be addressed with the pronouns of their "current" gender. To refuse to do so is disrespectful, offensive, and pretty much transphobic.

She was born a woman, with male genitalia. I'm sorry to see that people are not reading what it is that I'm posting. Gender and sex are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!
Medical professionals have established this, so while I love you to pieces man, I'm gonna go with their professional opinion on this.
I can understand why people are so confused by this subject. Afaik, you're all lucky to have both your gender and biological sex match when you were born. I, among others, were not so lucky. We have a male anatomy, but our gender is that of the opposite sex. In fact, gender is actually very fluid (much like sexuality) and there is a sliding trans-scale on this. The woman in the OP is the furthers to the right on that scale (transsexual). I'm not that far on it. I'm a bit further to the left of that, but enough to the right of androgyny (directly in between male and female) that living as a girl is warranted.

As far as religion goes, I'm pointing out where (and this is entirely jmo, so ignore it as you see fit) I believe people are basing their black and white views on this subject, when science is telling them it is very much a grey area.

As for intersex, I bring that up because I attempt to look at things from all angles. People can be genetically intersexed, yet have only the genitalia of one sex or the other. It is pretty rare, but I feel that is worth looking into as a viable possibility.


So please allow me to write this again for the 1235235234523 time, gender is more heavily considered than anatomic sex in the medical community, and if people can't trust the word of the entire medical and scientific community on this, then it shows that people are allowing personal bias and prejudice to take precedence before solid fact. Kinda like how some people "believe" the earth is actually flat.


And I'm glad that she is competing. I consider it another victory towards equality between trans and cis persons.

You can't force people to agree..the facts are that her genetic makeup makes her a man..despite what she feels..she's a man..NO ONE has to acknowledge her as a woman if they don't feel it comfortable because they do have an extremely valid point...considering she was born a male. NOTHING will change that. Transphobia isn't someone detailing the obvious facts. No one has to "accept" her as female because that's forcing them to go along with what's contrary to their beliefs...based on FACT. She is a biological man..with the chromosomes to back up the story..and she was born with male genitalia..for all intents and purposes we see her as a man..and as such she was not allowed to enter a competition for women who were born female. Thems the rules.

I can say I'm really a white person in a black person's body, and undergo surgeries and treatments to make myself look white..but my DNA doesn't lie and my genetic makeup will tell the truth. I'm all for people making their outsides match their insides, but not to the point of self delusion..much like when transwomen swear up and down that (after surgery) they are heterosexual women because they are "women" who are attracted to men, not bothering to let the men they're with know that they are in FACT in a homosexual relationship with a man who looks like a woman. Self deceit becomes dangerous, ESPECIALLY when it starts to push upon what other people feel based on an entire lifetime of sex/gender definition.

[Powermetalbass]

My previous comments may have been out of line and out of pure rage at people. but here is some food for thought.

Think about all the women you've ever been with, had a crush on, dreamt about. Can you ever be 100% sure they were a woman when they were born? did you even think to ask or look of documentation? Probably not! If there is one transgendered person (originally a man who changed to a woman), there is probably more then one.

To all the haters, and anyone else. Are you secure enough in your sexuality to know that there is the possibility you'v slept with or fantasized about a woman that may have been a man? (cause without documentation...you never know)

[rectifryer]

Where are you going with that PMB? You may or may not have unintentionally done alot of things in your life. Thats still irrelevant to the original topic.


Its like this, what if you slept with a woman that used to be a man that used to be a woman that had surgery in china to make her taller so she wasn't a midget anymore but it turns out she was just born with no asshole?

Your argument as I interpret it is just talking in circles. This can go on and on and on......

[The Reverend]

Originally Posted by rectifryer

Where are you going with that PMB? You may or may not have unintentionally done alot of things in your life. Thats still irrelevant to the original topic.


Its like this, what if you slept with a woman that used to be a man that used to be a woman that had surgery in china to make her taller so she wasn't a midget anymore but it turns out she was just born with no asshole?

Your argument as I interpret it is just talking in circles. This can go on and on and on......

He's clearly pointing towards a definition of womanhood that relies more on societal markers. If a genetic man never tells you he's transgendered, and you still get nasty with him, all the while you think he's a woman, doesn't that make her a woman?

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by rectifryer

Where are you going with that PMB? You may or may not have unintentionally done alot of things in your life. Thats still irrelevant to the original topic.


Its like this, what if you slept with a woman that used to be a man that used to be a woman that had surgery in china to make her taller so she wasn't a midget anymore but it turns out she was just born with no asshole?

Your argument as I interpret it is just talking in circles. This can go on and on and on......

Logic saves the day

Originally Posted by The Reverend

He's clearly pointing towards a definition of womanhood that relies more on societal markers. If a genetic man never tells you he's transgendered, and you still get nasty with him, all the while you think he's a woman, doesn't that make her a woman?

No...it means you just had sex with a man..that's what that means

If you have sex with a 16 year old under the impression that she was 20..does that make her legal age?

[The Reverend]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

No...it means you just had sex with a man..that's what that means

If you have sex with a 16 year old under the impression that she was 20..does that make her legal age?

To your perceptions at the time... yes.

I'm not arguing that transgendered people are in a purely technical sense men or women. I'm saying that for all intents and purposes, somebody truly does become their 'preferred' gender by inhabiting that role, especially when they've undergone surgery. Are you incapable of seeing that point, or just unwilling?

[flint757]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

You can't force people to agree..the facts are that her genetic makeup makes her a man..despite what she feels..she's a man..NO ONE has to acknowledge her as a woman if they don't feel it comfortable because they do have an extremely valid point...considering she was born a male. NOTHING will change that. Transphobia isn't someone detailing the obvious facts. No one has to "accept" her as female because that's forcing them to go along with what's contrary to their beliefs...based on FACT. She is a biological man..with the chromosomes to back up the story..and she was born with male genitalia..for all intents and purposes we see her as a man..and as such she was not allowed to enter a competition for women who were born female. Thems the rules.

I can say I'm really a white person in a black person's body, and undergo surgeries and treatments to make myself look white..but my DNA doesn't lie and my genetic makeup will tell the truth. I'm all for people making their outsides match their insides, but not to the point of self delusion..much like when transwomen swear up and down that (after surgery) they are heterosexual women because they are "women" who are attracted to men, not bothering to let the men they're with know that they are in FACT in a homosexual relationship with a man who looks like a woman. Self deceit becomes dangerous, ESPECIALLY when it starts to push upon what other people feel based on an entire lifetime of sex/gender definition.

I agree with the second part. There should be full disclosure. ]

For the first part honestly if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm going to call it a duck. She (the OT transexual) "looks" like a woman and if I saw her on the street would be none the wiser. However, if you could tell then I suppose it is within your right to be an ass although I'd frown upon it (but hey I'm a nice guy). Either way if I can't tell I'm not asking. Good reason to honestly. There are plenty of natural women out there with male feature and you'd be a huge dick to point that out to them, if you can't look at it from the tran side then you should at least look at it from the side of the feminine men and masculine women (in societal terms) who could in fact be in their "correct" gender.

Originally Posted by Powermetalbass

My previous comments may have been out of line and out of pure rage at people. but here is some food for thought.

Think about all the women you've ever been with, had a crush on, dreamt about. Can you ever be 100% sure they were a woman when they were born? did you even think to ask or look of documentation? Probably not! If there is one transgendered person (originally a man who changed to a woman), there is probably more then one.

To all the haters, and anyone else. Are you secure enough in your sexuality to know that there is the possibility you'v slept with or fantasized about a woman that may have been a man? (cause without documentation...you never know)

I get the point...

The point is unless you get a full work up you wouldn't necessarily know. I don't know the genetic makeup of any of my ex's and that was his point (although I'm going to assume they were all female in body and genetics). All this talk about genetics sounds more like people expecting trans people to were golden stars.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by The Reverend

To your perceptions at the time... yes.

I'm not arguing that transgendered people are in a purely technical sense men or women. I'm saying that for all intents and purposes, somebody truly does become their 'preferred' gender by inhabiting that role, especially when they've undergone surgery. Are you incapable of seeing that point, or just unwilling?

..what would the law say? The sex offender registry is full of people who "thought she was legal"...it doesn't matter what you THINK..it matters what is. I'd rather deal with reality, not just what I kinda-sorta believe at the time. Same as if I were with a man who used to be a woman..then I would have had sex with a woman..not a man because that's what happened.

Originally Posted by flint757

I agree with the second part. There should be full disclosure. ]

For the first part honestly if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm going to call it a duck. She (the OT transexual) "looks" like a woman and if I saw her on the street would be none the wiser. However, if you could tell then I suppose it is within your right to be an ass although I'd frown upon it (but hey I'm a nice guy). Either way if I can't tell I'm not asking. Good reason to honestly. There are plenty of natural women out there with male feature and you'd be a huge dick to point that out to them, if you can't look at it from the tran side then you should at least look at it from the side of the feminine men and masculine women (in societal terms) who could in fact be in their "correct" gender.

Well obviously "looks like quacks like" clearly doesn't apply for many things..this being one..because it's not a duck..despite it's best efforts to look like all the other ducks. As for whether or not to refer to her as female, if that's what she wants to be called then sure..I can call her that but of course I know full well she isn't. I'm more concerned with the sex of a person because that's pretty definite except in some cases. She was born a man..therefore her sex is male..she's a man. Her "gender" may be female but gender is always a touchy subject that can go multiple ways but a persons sex is pretty concrete (except in some cases obviously). I wouldn't go out of my way to tell a trans person they aren't the gender they think they are, however I'm certainly not going to pretend that it's "whatever they want to be" because that's not the case based on pure logic. If you were born a man, it doesn't matter what you do to your appearance..you're a man. Much like the people who undergo procedures and surgeries to resemble animals, monsters, other races, etc..at the end of it all they are STILL what they were when they were born and surgery doesn't change that and it would be foolish to pretend that a surgery completely changes someone's genetic makeup.

[bhakan]

So just to start off, I mean no offense in anything I say, so if anyone considers something I say offensive, its due to bad word choice, not bad intentions

Originally Posted by ghstofperdition

gender is more heavily considered than anatomic sex in the medical community

Maybe I missed this in your articles, but where does it say one is considered more important than the other. As you say, they are different terms, and if a doctor is performing a surgery on a woman who feels like a man, he still has to avoid cutting into the ovaries, because wanting to not have ovaries will not make them magically disappear, so in that case sex is more important, but from a psychological perspective, gender is more important. The terms are apples and oranges, as you have said, so neither can be more important.

The gender vs. sex is what this argument is about. Nobody is saying that she doesn't feel like a woman (so they are not saying her gender is not female) but they are saying her sex is still, to a degree, male.

[ghstofperdition]

Originally Posted by bhakan

Maybe I missed this in your articles, but where does it say one is considered more important than the other. As you say, they are different terms, and if a doctor is performing a surgery on a woman who feels like a man, he still has to avoid cutting into the ovaries, because wanting to not have ovaries will not make them magically disappear, so in that case sex is more important, but from a psychological perspective, gender is more important. The terms are apples and oranges, as you have said, so neither can be more important.

Okay, I concede that I have nothing to back this, since this statement was made by my Psychology professor in class, and I have no record of it. I will state (and this is jmo, since I have nothing to prove it at this time) that gender or a sense of gender has a larger impact on a person's life because it is the definition of their very being. A person's sex has no immediate life/death impact on them (discounting things like cancer) and unless you just reach down and grab whatever was there Crocodile Dundee-style, you'd never know what it truly was to begin with. (tbvh, I think it's this fear of the unknown that has people so worked up on the issue. They feel like they have to admit to themselves that they got a boner over someone that has a penis, so they think they're gay now and that doesn't sit well with them. It forces people to question themselves and that's the last thing a lot of people want to do.)

Gender on the other hand, it's everything about you. It's your residual self image, it's how the world perceives you, it is a determining factor of who you are and what you can do/be in life. It determines your interactions with society and is a factor in determining your place within it. People will know you for the rest of your life by your gender as it's right there in their face. It's hard to not see a person's gender. I believe that transpeople have it the hardest out of the whole LGBT community because it's far too easy to hide being bi, and while hard, you can hide being gay/lesbian from people. But trans? It's right there in people's faces all the time. You can't hide that from people.


(semi-offtopic, but still somewhat on topic since I believe the woman in the OP had similar intentions regarding this contest)
I supposed I made the mistake of being far too open about my sex/gender with others (much like the woman in the OP), but I did so because 1.) I don't like lying to people. I'm 100% up front with others because I'd expect the same in return and 2.) I had hoped that by being visible, it could help improve things for people like me and cispeople can see that we're not the crazy freaks that movies (like Silence of the Lambs) and society has painted us to be. People get so hung up on what's between a person's legs, who they sleep with, or the pigmentation color of their skin that they forget to look into what's in a person heart, mind and soul. Those should be the only things that ever matter to a person. Not age, gender, race, creed, sexual orientation, or disability.

[Jakke]

But Buffalo Bill is not transsexual, they even remark so in the movie...

I'm a Hannibal purist

[ghstofperdition]

Originally Posted by Jakke

But Buffalo Bill is not transsexual, they even remark so in the movie...

I'm a Hannibal purist

I'm not a transsexual either. (look up the work transgenderist. You'll find that's me to the letter) Doesn't stop people from reminding me that I'm a freak on a daily basis though, nor does it stop people from relegating me and the woman in the OP from being a human being to a something less than that because of what we may or may not have in our pants.

As Necris has astutely pointed out (and I really must +rep him for this), this woman had gone from a human being with struggles of her own to being a sex object in this thread. It's humiliating and degrading. It does nothing but bolster my belief that another root cause of the transphobic posting I've seen in here is rooted largely in misogyny. That mtf transgenders are heretics for "relinquishing" their male status which is somehow seen as being higher than female. How dare we consort with the enemy? We should be receiving the sandwiches, not making them...

Here's a thought....
Let go and let God/Buddah/Allah/Science/Christopher Hitchens/Whatever you believe or don't believe in...
Meaning let people live their lives as they see fit provided they don't infringe on the lives of others. I have the right to do as I please with my own body, as does the woman in the OP. She has the right to compete as a woman because she is a woman. As in when I look at her picture I see a woman. That's good enough for me. She's not robbing a bank, she's not committing heinous crimes, she just wants to look pretty and be recognized for her beauty. How the hell can this possibly be wrong? Because you might get a stiffy over it? That's your problem for not having control over you dick, and that is not her fault.