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Unread 02-17-2012, 07:38 AM   #1
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Guitar Morality

Do any of you have moral reasons against buying guitars from places like Indonesia,China, ect...?

I imagine the conditions aren't as good as Japan or the United States. I'm sure some of you are more educated on the topic than I am, so please share your knowledge on guitar factories! It could greatly affect my next purchase for whatever reasons.

Try to keep civil.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 07:43 AM   #2
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Well, over half the stuff we use everyday comes from China... Sooo...

I just find it odd how people wouldn't mind at all wearing any MiC clothing or operate a MiC computer, but be wary about playing a MiC guitar for moral reasons.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 07:57 AM   #3
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Well, over half the stuff we use everyday comes from China... Sooo...

I just find it odd how people wouldn't mind at all wearing any MiC clothing or operate a MiC computer, but be wary about playing a MiC guitar for moral reasons.
True, but sometimes you don't have a choice when it comes to household items,electronics, ect...
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Unread 02-17-2012, 08:04 AM   #4
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Are you talking about buying guitars from smaller brands based in those countries, or any guitars made in those countries from well known brands or otherwise?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 08:16 AM   #5
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I'm a strong believer in purchasing goods manufactured in your country as often as possible but buying import is a "necessary evil" in my current situation, and yeah, it kinda weighs on my conscience.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 08:26 AM   #6
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Does anybody know what Korean factory conditions are like? A lot of cool guitars are being made there today(example: the new Whitechapel sigs).
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:03 AM   #7
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Cort Guitar Workers ACTION! might be of some interest.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:32 AM   #8
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I had owned a Korean-made ESP LTD JH-600, and I loved it. Some dude on YouTube actually compared it with his ESP M Custom Camo, and there were some qualities that the JH-600 had that actually made it better than his ESP. It really depends on the company, though. As for morality, it wasn't really on my mind at the time. It would be cool if we got factory footage, but the only one that I found on YouTube was Ibanez, which was kind of scary, I have to admit.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:37 AM   #9
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Unread 02-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #10
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i say guitars are guitars.
you think america is any better than the korean workers action that was listed above?
look into the history of kalamazoo and gibson. not the same thing, but fairly close.
at the same time, i do have a thing against buying american guitars simply because they
have such a large overhead. most of the times they cost far more than other guitars
isnt because of quality control or anything, but because the workers are making those
wages. i'm sure if we buy a chinese $200 dollar guitar, the american workers aren't
going to lose their $40 an hour, or however much they make.

i do admit that i am a lil skeptical when it comes to guitars from china more so than indonesia as i have seen a lot of flaws in them, more so than other country of origin guitars. however, as of late, china has been making AMAZING stuff. and as for indonesia, this is nothing new, but they have been making brilliant guitars for a really long time. and now that they have the premium line, their guitars are getting better and better still.



at the end of the day, i see that the world is an island that we all are stuck in. as such, there really is no difference in supporting some worker in indonesia that is making minimal in hourly wages, or an american worker who is making a decent amount in his wages. support humans regardless of where you are...

in the end, a good guitar is a good guitar regardless of where its being made. i'm sure we all have seen/played horrible guitars made by the greats like fender, gibson, dean , prs that are made in usa. but at the same time, we all have played crappy guitars made in japan like ibanez, esp etc, and korea/china/indonesia like agile, schecter, ltd, ibanez, bc rich etc...
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Unread 02-17-2012, 10:17 AM   #11
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^ yeah I think you're missing his point, though. He's saying that presumably the Chinese workers are mistreated and underpaid, as they are in the garment industry. And the question is whether it would be better to "boycott" those guitars in protest of the poor treatment, or just take advantage of the low prices. At least morally.

For myself, I do feel guilty, and where possible try to buy stuff from countries with good human rights, like USA, Japan, European countries, etc. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, it's not always possible.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 10:43 AM   #12
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Cort Guitar Workers ACTION! might be of some interest.
“(A worker says, while showing her right wrist) “Can you see the lump poking out of my wrist? This is from repeatedly making scooping motions with the sawing knife. The doctor said the joint fluid in my wrist has built up from the heavy workload. The fluid was extracted but this never stopped the lump from growing, and I have been suffering from this painful wrist problem ever since.”

That doesn't sound very pleasant. It could have happened anywhere of course, but I'm sure the conditions made it more probable.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 10:56 AM   #13
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I would expect they are "less than ideal" conditions and wages. Their guitars are a great value in comparison to domestic. A lot of it has to do with the Federal Bank loaning these countries credit to build infrastructure, but at crippling interest rates. When the countries can't pay the debt corporations move in, take natural resources, exploit the population and mire them in even more debt. It's been going on for years, most people don't care because they don't want to think about how they get something for almost nothing. Don't rock the boat, keep your eyes straight ahead, buy more shit...well that's how most people just don't see it. If you can shout "this system works!" louder than everyone else then it might as well be the truth.

This is all predicated on the assumption that these outsourced factories fall in line with the traditional american business model, I could be wrong, that's how and why it would be that way though.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 11:28 AM   #14
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A necessary evil, manufacturing jobs are usually the best job a former farmer can hope to get.
We do not have to like it, but before jumping the shark and painting with broad strokes about work conditions, I caution you to think it through. Yes, conditions are bad compared to a european or US factory, but that job is usually all they have, and that salary makes it possible for them to survive.
Please remember that before Europe had its wealth, most jobs available were these kinds of jobs as well.

That does of course not mean that work shouldn't be put in to help workers get better conditions, but this is not such a black and white issue. What you consider an unacceptable pay feeds a family in China. Frankly, I see trading with China more regretable from a political perspective.

I would not, if I were a South Korean, appreciate being lumped together manufacturing-wise with China, just sayin'..


P.S. Such occurances as the ones within the Apple factory is unacceptable, and should be fought in any way possible.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 12:19 PM   #15
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Well is it beneficial to them to not buy their exports or to buy their exports and perpetuate the necessary evil? Former farmers used to feed their families just fine because it used to grow out of the ground where they built the factories and strip mined thousands of acres in an attempt to be competent in a global market. I'm torn on the issue now honestly all the same, things are the way things are- that said is it really the right thing to deny these people your business because they're getting treated unfairly? Those farmers are workers now, regardless of how or why, a boycott doesn't seem like the ideal situation for their current economic niche if I were in their shoes...oh wait.

Seriously though, would boycotting be the best course of action morally? I don't know personally.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 12:21 PM   #16
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My two cents, it's not my job or responsibility to solve the issue of their worker rights and working/living conditions but that doesn't mean I need to contribute to their system either.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 12:33 PM   #17
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My two cents, it's not my job or responsibility to solve the issue of their worker rights and working/living conditions but that doesn't mean I need to contribute to their system either.
You could remove yourself from the situation basically?
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Unread 02-17-2012, 12:35 PM   #18
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Well is it beneficial to them to not buy their exports or to buy their exports and perpetuate the necessary evil? Former farmers used to feed their families just fine because it used to grow out of the ground where they built the factories and strip mined thousands of acres in an attempt to be competent in a global market. I'm torn on the issue now honestly all the same, things are the way things are- that said is it really the right thing to deny these people your business because they're getting treated unfairly? Those farmers are workers now, regardless of how or why, a boycott doesn't seem like the ideal situation for their current economic niche if I were in their shoes...oh wait.

Seriously though, would boycotting be the best course of action morally? I don't know personally.
The problem is that the factory jobs pay better than farming, it is also, believe it or not, less work to work on a factory than owning a farm.

I would not say that boycott would work, because if factories earn less money, are they going to pay workers? Hell no! They will lay them off instead, and then the workers are starving.




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Unread 02-17-2012, 01:13 PM   #19
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FWIW, boycotting is a valuable tool but other measures need to be taken. The workers need to speak up and fight for better wages and conditions, just like needed to be done here. The 800 pound gorilla in the room here is that the majority of the companies being represented over there are foreign companies that went there specifically to exploit the divide between wages and the value of the products they're producing.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 03:04 PM   #20
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Personally, I don't think that me not buying a guitar made in China is going to change anything.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 03:32 PM   #21
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Personally, I don't think that me not buying a guitar made in China is going to change anything.
Of course not.

This is a moral debate.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 03:37 PM   #22
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Irony: Nearly everyone these days complains that so many of our products are made in China, when the only reason this country exists as we know it today is because European explorers wanted to set up trade with China (because their goods were superior to their own).

Double Irony: For years, businesses and consumers alike fought tariffs and other foreign trade limitations, but today the consumers go out of their way to buy U.S. made things after mercantilism is gone.

Triple Irony: The U.S.'s economy used to rely very heavily on the use and trade of slaves, long after the use and trade of slaves was stopped and made illegal in other countries. Factory work was not uncommon for children, either; now those in the U.S. are shocked and appalled that other countries could have the nerve to have less than perfect working conditions.
Moreover, neither is justified, but both are bad, but neither of the countries being compared would be what they are today without it.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 04:49 PM   #23
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Guys, I doubt your silent boycott for human rights would really help the factory workers. If the guitars can't sell -> they are out of a job. Congrats you have done a great thing!

And how the hell do you know which factories in China and other third world Asian countries have shitty work condition? How can you pinpoint specific companies and factories? Will your boycott really achieve any betterment of moral value or human rights?

I'm from Asia. We tend to have shitty pay yes, but people appreciate that they do have an alternative to working in a farm, you know. And the working class relies on these mundane factory jobs to save up and send their kids to school. The industrial base is how our middle-class were born. Thanks for being concerned about factory conditions and all, but to not buy stuff because of such issues seem like wishful thinking to me.

......
On the other hand, my moral compass actually tells me not to buy cheap guitars because those crappy tone woods are better off being trees. It's better for people who can afford it to buy a few nice guitars and not buy crappy gear for the love of conserving natural resource.

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Unread 02-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #24
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^ Thanks for your input! Try not to make any personal attacks here though.
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Unread 02-17-2012, 05:17 PM   #25
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^Personal attacks?




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