Second Class Citizens: The Gay Rights Documentary

[SenorDingDong]

First off, I am not gay. I was brought up to believe that we as humans are all equals, that no matter what our differences, we are all one.

This documentary is all about the struggle of gay men and women who have struggled over the years for equality. A struggle that is still going on in some places to this very day.



This is the trailer for the upcoming documentary:





First off, I thought the trailer was touching in and of itself. The pledge goal has already been reached, but there are links on the video if you would like to donate.

I personally have no part in the video or its creation, but I found it not only touching but somewhat enlightening as well. While it isn't meant to be a full explanation, it does get to the roots of some of the issues that the gay community have faced in the past years.

Give it a watch, speak your opinion. I believe this is something that we could all benefit from sharing. I only ask that the comments stay appropriate and non-hateful.

[leftyguitarjoe]

Homophobes are gay

[Explorer]

First off, this topic is definitely both about current events and politics. I reported it and requested it be moved to P&CE, to prevent trolling.

I know that a lot of people and websites are very upset about what they believe will be censorship from the Stop Online Piracy Act. I'm always surprised when there is a huge groundswell where people claim to be all about protecting everyone's rights, and yet an issue like this one, where there is a clear discrimination instead of some vague hypothetical, don't register for those same people.

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by Explorer

First off, this topic is definitely both about current events and politics. I reported it and requested it be moved to P&CE, to prevent trolling.

I know that a lot of people and websites are very upset about what they believe will be censorship from the Stop Online Piracy Act. I'm always surprised when there is a huge groundswell where people claim to be all about protecting everyone's rights, and yet an issue like this one, where there is a clear discrimination instead of some vague hypothetical, don't register for those same people.

Thanks,man. And I agree; People's mentality is pretty much "rights for those who I think deserve rights, everyone else is on their own and can suffer, no matter how unjust."

[Spaceman_Spiff]

This is very interesting, and I would love to see it.

I have always been a huge supporter of gay rights and always like to see something newsworthy that not only promotes tolerance, but also raises awareness about how unjustly they are treated in our very undecided society.

[signalgrey]

"It doesn't have ANY effect on your life. What do you care? People try to talk about it like it's a social issue. Like when you see someone stand up on a talk show and say 'How am I supposed to explain to my child that two men are getting married?' I dunno, it's your shitty kid, you ....in' tell 'em. Why is that anyone else's problem? Two guys are in LOVE but they can't get married because YOU don't want to talk to your ugly child for five ....in' minutes?" – Louis CK

My favorite argument is "...Whats next? people will want to start marrying their pets?!" What shocks me is that no one calls these people out on a very basic "slippery slope" logical fallacy. My elementary debate team here in Seoul, could call them out, verify and destroy a debater if they used something so blatant and ...well...retarded.

Its amazing how ignorant, unabashedly and blatantly hypocritical Americans can be sometimes. Land of the free...depending of course on your socio-economic class, and sexual identity.
Ok maybe thats being dramatic, but you know what I mean.

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by signalgrey

Its amazing how ignorant, unabashedly and blatantly hypocritical Americans can be sometimes. Land of the free...depending of course on your socio-economic class, and sexual identity.
Ok maybe thats being dramatic, but you know what I mean.

I don't think that is nearly as dramatic as you do. In fact, I think it is totally true; people are brought up to hate what they don't understand or what they fear. The problem is, it isn't their job to understand, and there should be no fear involved because it isn't their life. It affects them -10%.

[Iamasingularity]

Uhhh. This reminds me how this site has gotta go away one day:
Westboro Baptist Church Home Page

It amazes me how this church is around and how they have all the funds to go around the world picketing funerals and spreading their illogical beliefs. I just feel sad for the young children who are exposed to this kind of brainwashing.



Although some of you may not agree with Anonymous doings, don`t you think these Westboro people have stepped over the line?

[Explorer]

Why again with the Anonymous promotion and the talk about doing stuff to websites? That's two threads where you went there.

Nope, I don't agree with anonymously breaking the law to make a point. The Quakers went to jail for their beliefs as one example of having the courage of one's convictions, and those who just want to snipe without consequences for their criminal acts are worse than those who, like Westboro, are willing to stand publicly for their beliefs. Nice way to try to propagandize, though.

(I can't believe I just found something positive about the WBC. *laugh*)

Back to topic!

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by Iamasingularity

Uhhh. This reminds me how this site has gotta go away one day:


It amazes me how this church is around and how they have all the funds to go around the world picketing funerals and spreading their illogical beliefs. I just feel sad for the young children who are exposed to this kind of brainwashing.



Although some of you may not agree with Anonymous doings, don`t you think these Westboro people have stepped over the line?

Because that's their religion and as nuts as they are, they are entitled to it. STOP giving them free promotion. I do NOT understand why people love posting their stuff all over the internet for them. STOP DOING THEIR WORK.

[Explorer]

DT, what's going on is, he's trying to portray Anonymous in a positive light. I asked in another thread, where he was wishing he could hack a few websites with Anonymous because he didn't like how a law might be passed against online piracy, why he didn't worry about rights for those who are definitely being denied them.

His response? Clearly not in favor of laws, or getting out the vote, or education, but again wanting a criminal act to punish those with whom he doesn't agree.

Intolerance... how does it work?

Pretty well, apparently.

[Iamasingularity]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

Because that's their religion and as nuts as they are, they are entitled to it. STOP giving them free promotion. I do NOT understand why people love posting their stuff all over the internet for them. STOP DOING THEIR WORK.

The adults may do whatever asshatery they wish, but I consider bringing their children up in such conditions as ABUSE. Do you really think thats what kids are suppossed to be brought up like? Their parents are restricting their children`s future and rights in their own backyard. And its not free promotion. Its called showcasing the truth. The truth is that we got organizations like Westboro preaching such meaningless hate and here you are telling me how I`m giving them promotion... If you don`t want to agree with me, fine. The whole point of the video was to showcase "these beliefs that are so worth protecting" while we all fail to uphold laws to protect and give the rights to those who need it. How shameful.

[TRENCHLORD]

I don't think there will ever be total equality for gays.
Humans by nature herd together and have a strong tendency to pick on the other herd members that are different than the majority.

No passing of laws or gaining of suggested social acceptence will change the way they're treated when no one is looking and the world isn't watching.

I strongly oppose the gay marriage, and I strongly oppose the hetro-marriage as legal recognitions.

Since when in the hell does the government have the right or duty to make claims or denials in regards to personal relationships.

I haven't a problem at all with people (couples, triples, singles w/ animals(lol on that one) making agreements/commitments with each other, their families or their churches in consimation of the partnership.

[Explorer]

@Trenchlord - The question isn't about whether to abolish marriage, but whether two consenting adults can have their marriage recognized as are other marriages between two consenting adults. It was fairly recently in our history when marriage wasn't recognized between negroes and whites, as well as a lack of other civil and employment rights for those same negroes. They were second class citizens.

(Yes, I chose that word "negro" specifically as it reflects those times.)

So, given that the question isn't about abolishing governmental recognition of marriage, I ask you: As the government does recognizes marriages, should it exclude one particular marriage between two consenting adults?

----

I saw that there was going to be a public debate in Seattle between those who are in favor of marriage equality, and those who have actively opposed it. I was hoping to see a webcast of the debate, but all the religious leaders who had agreed to take part backed out at the last moment. Again, it's interesting to see those who are willing to talk and to act... until there's a chance that others will witness what they're doing. I guess it's one thing to lecture from the pulpit, and another to have to present your views where you're not preaching to a complacent flock....

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by Iamasingularity

The adults may do whatever asshatery they wish, but I consider bringing their children up in such conditions as ABUSE. Do you really think thats what kids are suppossed to be brought up like? Their parents are restricting their children`s future and rights in their own backyard. And its not free promotion. Its called showcasing the truth. The truth is that we got organizations like Westboro preaching such meaningless hate and here you are telling me how I`m giving them promotion... If you don`t want to agree with me, fine. The whole point of the video was to showcase "these beliefs that are so worth protecting" while we all fail to uphold laws to protect and give the rights to those who need it. How shameful.

Yeah everyone says they have good reasons but for every time someone posts something from them, it's an opportunity to get their name out to people who didn't know they existed..and for someone to check the vid out and go "Ya know..they make sense". Anytime you post something of theirs you are spreading their word, regardless of whether or not you agree with the message. Unfortunately they aren't "harming" their children in a way the laws recognize as illegal. Many religions teach their kids a sheltered world view, some moreso than others..not a whole lot you can do.

[Iamasingularity]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

Yeah everyone says they have good reasons but for every time someone posts something from them, it's an opportunity to get their name out to people who didn't know they existed..and for someone to check the vid out and go "Ya know..they make sense". Anytime you post something of theirs you are spreading their word, regardless of whether or not you agree with the message. Unfortunately they aren't "harming" their children in a way the laws recognize as illegal. Many religions teach their kids a sheltered world view, some moreso than others..not a whole lot you can do.

I get what you are saying, sure there are people out there who will take their message in, but its really best for people to know such idiocracy exists. Shunning it will not be of much help. Its like the bible to me. Being an athiest although I wouldn`t press people to read the Bible, I won`t act like its something not to consider reading. After reading that book It strengthned my disbilief in its teachings and may be of help in people who are going through the athiest experience. This form of sheltered view is very hard to escape from. Hopefully some of the kids will realize that later that this hate leads to nothing. There`s always something we can do.

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Explorer

@Trenchlord - The question isn't about whether to abolish marriage, but whether two consenting adults can have their marriage recognized as are other marriages between two consenting adults. It was fairly recently in our history when marriage wasn't recognized between negroes and whites, as well as a lack of other civil and employment rights for those same negroes. They were second class citizens.

(Yes, I chose that word "negro" specifically as it reflects those times.)

So, given that the question isn't about abolishing governmental recognition of marriage, I ask you: As the government does recognizes marriages, should it exclude one particular marriage between two consenting adults?

Yes, because that puts us half-way to having the government out of marriage altogether.

The way I see it, the gays are the lucky ones for not having big brother involved in their unions.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

Yes, because that puts us half-way to having the government out of marriage altogether.

The way I see it, the gays are the lucky ones for not having big brother involved in their unions.

Here's what's scary: There were a lot of people who felt that slaves were lucky to not have to find jobs. Of course, those were people on the outside who felt that way, not the slaves.

However, since the push for two consenting adults being allowed to marry is coming from within the gay community, it's clear they don't think of themselves as lucky. Your point is irrelevant, as you are clearly not speaking for them, and clearly don't understand why people want to get married. That's okay to have your own viewpoint, but don't impose it on someone else.

And, there isn't a push from society asking for the abolition of marriage, so that's a non-starter. However, I'm sure you can gauge response to it if you want to discuss it in a topic devoted to it.

Back to topic!

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Explorer

Here's what's scary: There were a lot of people who felt that slaves were lucky to not have to find jobs. Of course, those were people on the outside who felt that way, not the slaves.

However, since the push for two consenting adults being allowed to marry is coming from within the gay community, it's clear they don't think of themselves as lucky. Your point is irrelevant, as you are clearly not speaking for them, and clearly don't understand why people want to get married. That's okay to have your own viewpoint, but don't impose it on someone else.

And, there isn't a push from society asking for the abolition of marriage, so that's a non-starter. However, I'm sure you can gauge response to it if you want to discuss it in a topic devoted to it.

Back to topic!

I know what you're saying really, and it's true that things won't ever change in the way that i'd like. That being so, I'd think it wrong for anyone to stand in the way of love .

There is however a push from society to abolish marriage altogether.
Of coarse that push is an extreme minority, just like the push for gay marriage is from an extreme minority.

If the gays want total equality, then they'll have to man-up (p.i.) and make it happen through civil disobediance in the same way blacks did.
Martin Luther King inspired many blacks yes, but it was the riots that forced the change.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

There is however a push from society to abolish marriage altogether.
Of coarse that push is an extreme minority, just like the push for gay marriage is from an extreme minority.

If the gays want total equality, then they'll have to man-up (p.i.) and make it happen through civil disobediance in the same way blacks did.
Martin Luther King inspired many blacks yes, but it was the riots that forced the change.

I'm going to disagree that it was the riots which forced the change. It was a slow and steady progress. However, if you look at the history of that change, you'll see that most riots were the whites, and that federal troops and police were mobilized to stop them. The violence got them nowhere.

Civil Rights Movement Timeline (14th Amendment, 1964 Act, Human Rights Law) — Infoplease.com

I'm sorry that history isn't in line with your theory, but sometimes that happens.

There isn't really a push from society to abolish marriage, any more than there is a push from society to support the neo-Nazis. If it's a tiny minority, saying it's society in general is a complete misstatement.

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Explorer

There isn't really a push from society to abolish marriage, any more than there is a push from society to support the neo-Nazis. If it's a tiny minority, saying it's society in general is a complete misstatement.

I'm not going to take time to quote statistics because statistics by their very nature are very manipulatible, but your implying that those seeking full equality (including the right for gay couples to adopt) are any more than a tiny minority is just inaccurate.

It's easy to see how society is led to believe that there is this huge outcry for gay rights. The modern leftist media pushes that false notion along with many other lies.

When they have gay rights activist demonstrations up in Champaign IL near the U of I campus there isn't more than a couple hundred of them show up. And that's in an area of a few hundred thousand people.

Hell, the Tea Party meetings totaly trump them on attendence, yet the leftist media makes the tea partiers out to be a small fringe group of radicals while totaly embracing the gays.

This nation is just fortunate now to have FOX NEWS to set the record straight (no p.i.).

[Waelstrum]

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

This nation is just fortunate now to have FOX NEWS to set the record straight (no p.i.).

It's probably not fair that I laugh at this, (as I only see Fox news through the lense of an outsider, and as such, only see Fox News when it's being biased) but I will anyway. I'm sure most of the time it really is fair and balanced.

Here is a link to some info. I know you've already said that you don't like statistics, and this is from Wikipedia (and therefore to be taken with a cup of salt), but it does give a pretty good indication that the public opinion on gay marriage has been move more and more in favour of it each year. In 2011, it finally tipped the scales into being more than half in favour of gay marriage. I would say that's significantly more than a tiny minority.

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

It's probably not fair that I laugh at this, (as I only see Fox news through the lense of an outsider, and as such, only see Fox News when it's being biased) but I will anyway. I'm sure most of the time it really is fair and balanced.

Here is a link to some info. I know you've already said that you don't like statistics, and this is from Wikipedia (and therefore to be taken with a cup of salt), but it does give a pretty good indication that the public opinion on gay marriage has been move more and more in favour of it each year. In 2011, it finally tipped the scales into being more than half in favour of gay marriage. I would say that's significantly more than a tiny minority.

Yes, but that's gay marriage.
I specifically cited full gay rights (those including gay couple adoption) in my proclaiming of those in favor being a tiny minority.

That's where the gay movement loses it's footing.
There's just still too many people who can't accept the right of gays to adopt.
If I'm wrong on this, then why is it still illegal?

[Iamasingularity]

[TRENCHLORD]

Did it pass in Iowa?

edit; just checked, it's been legal there for 3yrs now, but are the gay man couples allowed to adopt? I'll see if I can find the Iowa laws on it.

http://family.findlaw.com/adoption/l...-adoption.html