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Unread 02-04-2012, 07:32 AM   #76
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It's not something that I've encountered yet, coming from Australia.
...coming from Queensland I think you mean.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 09:26 AM   #77
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Ah, pronouns...

I've always used "they/them" when I don't know someone's gender, either because of internet anonymity or real-world androgyny/ambiguity. I'll continue to use "they/them" until I get a clarification. English is lucky to have a gender-neutral third-person plural pronoun like that. It's not perfect, but it's certainly worlds better than calling someone "it," which is a level of disrespect that I can barely comprehend. Spoken Chinese at least has the utterly neutral , but its written forms distinguish between male and female. "They/them" will have to do for now.

Gender-neutral titles are sorely lacking in this language, and indeed most languages I know. Japanese at least has the gender-neutral -san, but it's almost always attached to a name and so is redundant in a "yes, sir; no ma'am" context. Then again, my Japanese is rusty as hell. The few neutral titles that exist in English are tied to profession and education, which I'd be in no position to know unless they're in a white coat or military dress. However I've never been one for calling someone "sir" or "ma'am;" I feel I can express respect without resorting to such words.

Transphobia seems far more insidious than homophobia. Even otherwise intelligent people see to have a moment of "squick" at the thought of so-called "gender-bending." I hate it (the phobia, not trans people!). I always call people out on it. Prejudice against the contents of someone's underwear has to be one of the most idiotic forms of prejudice.

That's what it boils down to: presenting as a particular gender while not being the usual biological sex. Gender and sex, while intertwined, are not the same thing.



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Unread 02-04-2012, 09:59 AM   #78
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...coming from Queensland I think you mean.
Wait, what did I miss?

EDIT: Well, Queensland recently got civil partnerships, which is a step in the right direction, but it's still not quite there. There are still no states which have the full thing.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 01:31 PM   #79
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Ah, pronouns...

I've always used "they/them" when I don't know someone's gender, either because of internet anonymity or real-world androgyny/ambiguity. I'll continue to use "they/them" until I get a clarification. English is lucky to have a gender-neutral third-person plural pronoun like that. It's not perfect, but it's certainly worlds better than calling someone "it," which is a level of disrespect that I can barely comprehend. Spoken Chinese at least has the utterly neutral , but its written forms distinguish between male and female. "They/them" will have to do for now.

Gender-neutral titles are sorely lacking in this language, and indeed most languages I know. Japanese at least has the gender-neutral -san, but it's almost always attached to a name and so is redundant in a "yes, sir; no ma'am" context. Then again, my Japanese is rusty as hell. The few neutral titles that exist in English are tied to profession and education, which I'd be in no position to know unless they're in a white coat or military dress. However I've never been one for calling someone "sir" or "ma'am;" I feel I can express respect without resorting to such words.

Transphobia seems far more insidious than homophobia. Even otherwise intelligent people see to have a moment of "squick" at the thought of so-called "gender-bending." I hate it (the phobia, not trans people!). I always call people out on it. Prejudice against the contents of someone's underwear has to be one of the most idiotic forms of prejudice.

That's what it boils down to: presenting as a particular gender while not being the usual biological sex. Gender and sex, while intertwined, are not the same thing.
Eh, all people really need to do is get drunk and talk to a trans person. You might get a giant earful of TMI like I did but I'm not squeamish around trans people at all any more.

EDIT: And as far as what identifier to use, that really drives home how internalized the gender binary (male OR female, her OR him, etc.) really is. I'd just come straight out and ask them what they want to be identified as and risk looking a little bit ignorant because I just am. I figure it's fine to be curious as long as I'm treating them like a valid human being. The trans person I was talking to was biologically male*, but felt female so I referred to her as such. She wanted to get sex reassignment surgery but couldn't afford it. She was 50 I think, HIV positive, and worried about the police. Probably been through a lot of shit.












*even "biologically male" and "biologically female" is on a continuum. Genitalia develop out of the same embryonic tissue and some just differentiate more than others. The penis and clitoris are homologous parts (look at a clit and it basically looks like a tiny dick - eat that, homophobes). Some people are born with giant ass clitorises, micropenis, both sets, you name it. Most people are fertile, and for the most part there are, effectively, two sexes which are capable of reproduction with each other but it is absolutely, scientifically wrong to declare that there is a gender binary that is natural because it corresponds with two kinds of genitalia. There is enough variation out there, I think, to warrant not being all that surprised to hear of the existence of a person whose junk doesn't look like yours or your girlfriend's. You can also have a penis, be fertile, but have XX chromosomes and vice versa, along with many other chromosomal variations. I think you can be XXY and XXX too. How awesome would that be?
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Unread 02-04-2012, 02:45 PM   #80
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Homophobia ---> modern racism
(I hope somebody's posted since I did last, otherwise I guess it would be jim-dandy if a mod were to merge my posts or ban me)

Interesting point, homophobia and racism definitely seem to operate on some similar logics, especially at the individual level. I wouldn't say they're equivalent because homophobia doesn't have the same colonial background that racism in the West had/has, depending on how left you lean

Racism was used as an ideological tool to justify colonizing (exploiting is probably a better word, as "colonizing" probably could have worked out in a nicer, mutually beneficial way, but alas people are dicks sometimes) - it wasn't a horrific sin to enslave African people because they were godless savages and "natural" slaves so racism was sort of used to wash people's hands of feelings of prejudice, ironically enough. That's if I'm understanding myself correctly. I could be getting this totally ass-backwards and putting racism in an historical context like this is bound to make racism look much different depending on what perspective or political inclination you're using. Racism is still around, so no matter what you have to explain it somehow. It didn't end when slavery was abolished and blacks were let into the front of the bus, or when Obama was elected.

I don't think homophobia has had that same kind of history. From what I know, non-heterosexuality was always kind of a thing that lurked around in the shadows in Western society and was only really just implied, never explicitly mentioned or faced. In movies, homosexual men were implied with British accents and slightly feminine gestures, or certain leering facial expressions (Scar from the Lion King is gay, and gayness is equated with evil in some way, they hint at these things). A movie, for example won't come out and say that gayness is evil, but they'll just suggest it and over time the effect this has is internalization of negative attitudes towards non-heterosexuals. This isn't the sole responsibility of movies, by any stretch, it's just an example.

I think (I'll just say queerness) queerness has only really been "around" since the 80s? That's when the gay rights movement really seemed to take off. Society was pretty shitty to queers in the 80s, the sex liberation movement of the 60s and 70s left its mark, feminism was beginning to embrace queer identities and a men's movement was emerging out of psychoanalysis, feminism, feminist backlash (reactionary movement, look up men's rights activists), and its own devices so I guess around this point in history we really looked down our own pants and really questioned what we were seeing.

I'll go on my own experience here with both racism and homophobia as they were/still are to an extent internalized in me. I still feel a slight twinge of intimidation when I see a black guy of large stature, even more if he's dressed like a "gangsta" (I feel like a 40 year old when I say that) thanks to the media, music videos, the institution of masculinity (hypermasculinity in the case of black males - gay black males are EXTREMELY vulnerable to outside abuse). I don't hold my purse in tight or cross the street, but there is a part of me that is praying he doesn't get set off when I make brief eye contact with him because the image is that they ("giant black guys") are a bunch of volatile gorillas who will rage at you if you look at them. This is a pretty antiquated racist stereotype that has been around for decades and still persists. I'm sure some of your white friends have said "a huge black guy" several times, that's a microaggression (a subtle indication of internalized racism/sexism/whateverism). Homophobia is maintained through microaggressions, we call guys who are behaving in "unmasculine" ways "faggots," much of male privilege is practically rooted in homophobia; it's used to maintain this masculine front so your place in the group of guys you hang out with isn't compromised. Maybe back in the day racism functioned in a sort of similar way, if you were a "...... lover" then your friends would probably outcast you but not on the basis of compromised masculinity.

I guess what you're saying is that homophobia (I prefer homonegativity but I always just say phobia) is kind of the prejudice of our day? You definitely seem to hear more about homophobic sorts of stories in the news - racist hate crimes are still around but homophobia seems to be a bit more common, and by that I mean it's reported more. It's also been incorporated into public schools, in high school I was seeing these posters with anti-homophobic messages, and now there's this whole "it gets better" thing which is kind of a crock of shit, there's SlutWalk (the picture of the androgynous looking swoopy red haired kid holding up the sign that says "this is what I wore when I was raped, I dare you to ask me if I was asking for it is a gay male, everyone including me thought it was a girl because "only heterosexual women are raped," making rape very much a gay issue as well, and a male issue for that matter esp. since the overwhelming majority of rapists are male), schools have GSA's, universities have pride events, there are all kinds of things out there that advocate on behalf of queer people, and there are of course the reactionary conservative groups (and some crooked liberals as well, even some feminists aren't accepting towards trans people) who are fighting against them for some ....ing reason so homophobia is very much a common topic of discussion today.



tl;dr - as far as current topics of discussion goes, yeah homophobia is like the new racism, but racism is still around and it has a much different history than homophobia.
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Unread 02-04-2012, 08:52 PM   #81
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Groph, you said it all dude!

And yes there are those with chromosone variations of XXX, XXY, XYX, etc. This is known in the trans community as intersex. It is very rare, but does happen. I think people know them better by the term hermaphrodite, but not all intersex persons actually have both gentalia.

It's pretty interesting stuff to look into. Be forewarned, it will devastate your concept of gender binary forever.....


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Unread 02-05-2012, 04:14 PM   #82
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I'm posting this for the reason of relavence to society's perception of the subject and because I just seen outakes from the video on the super bowl pregame show.

What do you guys/girls think?
Should this be considered fair game for humor or not?
I for one just don't find it that funny, but I also am not offended but can understand some being.
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Unread 02-05-2012, 05:20 PM   #83
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I actually found that kinda funny. I have a similar appetite as Yvonne.


Sure there's more stereotyping, but in this case I feel it's more aimed at crap tv than the trans community. I can't speak for other's but I wasn't offended at all.


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Unread 02-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #84
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Not every stereotype is necessarily negative. I don't mind when girls who don't know me well yet know I'm gay ask about my opinion on clothing. They're usually surprised I know jackshit about that, decoration, and pretty much any other "gay-related" stuff for that matter. It's not a statement of inferiority, just a commonly observed situation.

I'd think it's the same when people relate black people to "big, strong, and ferocious". Of course, saying all blacks are potential psychopaths is one thing; saying "don't .... with that guy or he's gonna kick your ass" is somewhat different. Of course, I'm not black myself; I wouldn't know how they feel... besides, although racism does exist in here, it's not as proeminent a problem as it seems to be in US.

But I derail.

There's something in Groph's post I find particularly accurate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by groph
Homophobia is maintained through microaggressions, we call guys who are behaving in "unmasculine" ways "faggots," much of male privilege is practically rooted in homophobia; it's used to maintain this masculine front so your place in the group of guys you hang out with isn't compromised.
I've always seen homophobia as an extend of misogyny. Homosexual men are viewed as inferior because they're renouncing their higher status of men to become more of a woman; homosexual women, as insolent, for daring to act like more than what they really are (mere women).

I do not know if these concepts necessarily walk hand in hand, or maybe if it's just a coincidence (and tolerant people are tolerant). Be it as it may, religious extremists' views on both subjects (feminism and LGBT rights) are quite similar, and countries where gender equality is not only enforced, but also socially internalized (Scandinavia in particular) are also the most tolerant regarding LGBT.
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Unread 02-06-2012, 02:10 PM   #85
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^ I rather enjoy the "big dick" stereotype. It's gotten me laid many many times. Curiosity slayed the slut...
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Unread 02-06-2012, 02:33 PM   #86
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Not every stereotype is necessarily negative. I don't mind when girls who don't know me well yet know I'm gay ask about my opinion on clothing. They're usually surprised I know jackshit about that, decoration, and pretty much any other "gay-related" stuff for that matter. It's not a statement of inferiority, just a commonly observed situation.

I'd think it's the same when people relate black people to "big, strong, and ferocious". Of course, saying all blacks are potential psychopaths is one thing; saying "don't .... with that guy or he's gonna kick your ass" is somewhat different. Of course, I'm not black myself; I wouldn't know how they feel... besides, although racism does exist in here, it's not as proeminent a problem as it seems to be in US.

But I derail.

There's something in Groph's post I find particularly accurate:



I've always seen homophobia as an extend of misogyny. Homosexual men are viewed as inferior because they're renouncing their higher status of men to become more of a woman; homosexual women, as insolent, for daring to act like more than what they really are (mere women).

I do not know if these concepts necessarily walk hand in hand, or maybe if it's just a coincidence (and tolerant people are tolerant). Be it as it may, religious extremists' views on both subjects (feminism and LGBT rights) are quite similar, and countries where gender equality is not only enforced, but also socially internalized (Scandinavia in particular) are also the most tolerant regarding LGBT.
Homophobia and misogyny are absolutely related and they do work together to enforce a binary or male privilege or what have you.

Gay men can still be closeted and maintain a level of privilege but once you're out and open some of it is gone. You still have maleness in common so you're not the shit at the bottom of the barrel - at least not to all men, some will kill you just the same (Matthew Sheppard) but there probably is some privilege lost. Your straight friends will probably say that they don't see you any differently but who knows, maybe when you guys go out for a night on the town, would they be cool with you bringing a guy back to their place, as cool as they would have been if you were straight and brought a girl back, would they still high-five you? Probably not. I think gay men still feel a need to censor themselves around straight men, even if everybody knows they're gay. Straight guys just aren't comfortable with gay sex (and I mean teh buttsecks and all that "raunchy shit" you fabulous gays are up to) I guess.

EDIT: And Konfyouzd, allow me to be the white guy who will explain your own prejudice to you (sorry) but isn't the "big dick" thing rooted in some old notion that black men are hypersexual and way more rapist-y than the average (white) man? Large dicks are glorified today yes, but back in the day it wasn't at all meant as a compliment? I know in ancient Greek culture large penises were associated with barbarians while small ones were the well cultured citizens and they were considered more aesthetically pleasing. As far as actual studies go, there doesn't seem to be a huge correlation between size and race, at least not a big exaggerated one like porn and the boastings of black rappers would have you believe. I'm just glad I'm not Asian. True or not, the Asian = tiny (not just small, TINY) penis thing is pervasive.
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Unread 02-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #87
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Unread 02-06-2012, 02:38 PM   #88
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Unread 02-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #89
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Simple question...

The Declaration of Independence seems to suggest we have these things we call rights... Rights that are supposedly inalienable. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

We've reserved the right to suspend said rights as a means of legal reprimand...

Does letting two men who are in love fall under "the pursuit of happiness" (or even the other two for that matter)?

Seems so to me and they've done nothing illegal in finding each other to be beautiful individuals.



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Unread 02-06-2012, 08:15 PM   #90
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Wait, what did I miss?

EDIT: Well, Queensland recently got civil partnerships, which is a step in the right direction, but it's still not quite there. There are still no states which have the full thing.
I was just making a childish reference to Bob Katter's pronouncement that there were 'no poofs in Kennedy' and that he'd walk backwards from Bourke to Brisbane if one was ever found. Then his brother came out...

I wonder if he's ever given any thought to how many of the rural suicides he's always banging on about being blokes who were just sick and tired of having to 'visit relatives in the city' every month?
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Unread 02-06-2012, 08:31 PM   #91
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^ It's almost like if you tell someone you play EMGs or a guitar that only has 6 strings around here...
Yeah that's me as well lol

As far as the other stereotyping mentioned by you above;
I always tell women that; I might look white,
I might hate rap, but I'm 100% black from the waist down .
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Unread 02-06-2012, 09:14 PM   #92
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@Konfyouzd - I'm not sure if you're asking a leading question because the correct answer would then be obvious, but...

Women and blacks didn't have the vote for a long time. The majority of blacks didn't even have freedom.

It's only as we have more and more protections from the majority that these laws come to be enforced for even the weakest or least powerful in society.

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 02-07-2012, 08:10 AM   #93
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I've missed out on a lot of this discussion (although I've read most), but I'll just say that I believe in a separation of church and state.

Marriage is a religious ceremony.

It shouldn't be the state's job to step in and say, "hey, you can't get married," because, well, that's the church's decision, isn't it? And by the state doing so, they are stepping into religious boundaries which, quite blatantly, is jointing church and state. If the state would abide by the separation, there would be no need for the federal government to get involved in the first place.

If they want to step in and grab the reigns for the church so badly, what are their defenses as to why they won't stop the Westboro Baptists or other religious-type cults? I mean, if you can cross the line once, why can't you cross it again when the rationalization is, in most eyes, blatant?

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Unread 02-07-2012, 08:18 AM   #94
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@Konfyouzd - I'm not sure if you're asking a leading question because the correct answer would then be obvious, but...

Women and blacks didn't have the vote for a long time. The majority of blacks didn't even have freedom.

It's only as we have more and more protections from the majority that these laws come to be enforced for even the weakest or least powerful in society.
I was just stating an observation really. I've noticed that a lot of the time when someone is trying to push some personal agenda they'll talk about the ideals up on which the country was founded in some half assed attempt at guilting you into agreeing with them via pseudo-patriotism.

But then obvious shit like that seems to get swept under the rug. 'Tis all.

And I realize that there is more or less always going to be a majority of some kind, but I'm kind of disgusted at how the "majority" tends to behave.



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Unread 02-07-2012, 08:50 AM   #95
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I was just making a childish reference to Bob Katter's pronouncement that there were 'no poofs in Kennedy' and that he'd walk backwards from Bourke to Brisbane if one was ever found. Then his brother came out...

I wonder if he's ever given any thought to how many of the rural suicides he's always banging on about being blokes who were just sick and tired of having to 'visit relatives in the city' every month?
Oh, I forgot he said that. I remember at the time thinking that the effort, money and time he must have spent in establishing the sexual orientation of every single person could have been used for more important things.

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Marriage is a religious ceremony.
It is not only a religious ceremony, as atheists can get married too. (Please excuse the smartarsery.) Also, if I'm not mistaken, there is some misinformation coming from the anti-gay movement that if gay marriage is legalised, it will force churches to perform marriage services for homosexual couples. (However, (AFAIK) this has never been proposed, as churches have the right to discriminate against couples for any reason. For example, a church can refuse to perform a wedding ceremony for a mixed faith couple.) Thus this argument can go either way, depending on your preconceptions.

EDIT: Also, while some may benefit from it, I don't believe that positive stereotypes are good. (Certainly they're almost all better than negative stereotypes.) For example, if you're a small dicked African American, it will seem even smaller when compared to how big the dick was expected to be. Similarly, and Asian that can't do maths will seem even dumber than a similarly maths illiterate white person. It also belittles the achievements of people who live up to the stereotypes, as they are meeting expectations, rather than demonstrating a level beyond the norm.
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Unread 02-07-2012, 08:53 AM   #96
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^ Any of the arguments suggesting that allowing gays to be open about what they've always done "corrupting the rest of us" in any way shape or form always sounds like someone in the closet to me.

And church officials have been known to touch little boys. Not just the Catholic ones either. At least I can let a homosexual babysit my child with little to no worries (most gay men I know are very respectful of others' preferences--imagine that). But I can't even let them go to Sunday school... What a world.



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Unread 02-07-2012, 09:02 AM   #97
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Hey, first post here. I've been lurking for awhile, but hadn't gotten around to posting yet.

Anyway, I can back that up with respect to marriage being a religious ceremony. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ceremony has no legal standing by itself in the US. That's why you often see couples signing the marriage license during the wedding. That's when the wedding legally happens. You can get married without going anywhere near a church, so the whole "Churches will have to marry gay people" argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Unread 02-07-2012, 09:04 AM   #98
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^This...

A lot of people sign their marriage license well before the ceremony even takes place. It's just traditional to have said ceremony and 9/10 times your woman will more or less make you do it.



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Unread 02-07-2012, 09:10 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Konfyouzd View Post
^ Any of the arguments suggesting that allowing gays to be open about what they've always done "corrupting the rest of us" in any way shape or form always sounds like someone in the closet to me.

The specific thing I was referring to isn't necessarily the old "standing near tall people makes you tall" argument, I was actually referring to this argument: (WARNING: MASSIVE DOUCHE CONTENT)

at around 1:17

(Aside: I was watching a few of this guy's videos because I thought he was being a straw man, like Colbert, until I realised he was serious. )
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Unread 02-07-2012, 09:14 AM   #100
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^ Whoa... What a cluster....... I get what you mean now, though. They were never "forced" to marry anyone else, so why would homosexuals be anything different? Seems like an excuse to just say no like that dude's mom who said she didn't trust Rondo's website.

EDIT: You were right. That guy IS a massive douche. Seems intelligent but everything he says has a very pretentious vibe to it.



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