Anyone seen Thrive - new documentary ?

[Overtone]

What I was saying is that when you consider it from a game theory perspective, if there was a cure from cancer, it would be impossible to get every player to collude and keep that cure from reaching the public. I wasn't using economics to support the conspiracy, I was saying that it's very unlikely. Are you trolling me or something? "Case against the cure for cancer conspiracy" should have made it clear what I was getting at.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by SirMyghin

Seems to have evaporated, must of been a large collusion by the energy market which kept the guy from getting anything done to get it available. Only logical conclusion of course, it is not as it if was a hoax or anything.

Exactly, the producers must have ganged together, I know that stuff happens, I've read it on the net.

Do they think we are blind or something? I am onto them!

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by Overtone

There is no one source of information that I deem to be absolutely dependable. The point I'm trying to make is that practitioners of different backgrounds have different perspectives and different biases (they make different simplifications), and for that reason it's useful to sample as many of them as possible. Acupuncture may not survive the scientific method when it's results are scrutinized, but it's possible that an acupuncturist can be correct in his/her knowledge about certain areas.

There's a saying with a useful corollary:

A stopped clock is correct twice a day.

But it's impossible to know exactly when those two moments occur.

So, if I could own one of three watches, I'd rank them in this order:

A watch which is as correct as possible
A watch which only looses a few minutes a day
A stopped watch (and I wouldn't even wear it)

The problem with saying, well, this person *might* be right about this one thing, even though this other stuff is wrong!, is that you're looking to winnow out what might be true and false at the outset.

It was probably buried in my previous avalanche of text (sorry, I'd blame the drugs but everyone knows it's just me), but you severely misunderstand how the scientific method works... including modern medicine.

The main goal of the scientific method is to winnow out empirical evidence, while avoiding bias on the part of the individuals doing the science.

That's why there are blinded tests. Using a medical example, if a group receiving nothing has members who claim miracle cures, or stomach aches, then they can look for a similar rate of non-related false results from those actually receiving the stuff. And, if something doesn't have a result above noise (placebo) level, then it's discarded.

And, if it works, it becomes part of medicine. I gave the ulcer/antibiotic example earlier, and mentioned Joseph Lister, but there are plenty of things which get incorporated over time.

Compare that to pseudoscience, including the things they study at the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Many practicioners will *never* abandon those things which have never been able to generate a jot of results in double blind tests, not one wit.

It's okay for you to make the choice that you'd rather look at a stopped clock or a slow/fast clock to determine how far off it might be, but most would rather look at a clock which is as accurate as possible... especially if it's a matter of their health. Some things are too risky to take chances on.

Which is why, although there are lots of CAM remedies out there, you only find CAM birth control on the very fringes. Most people don't take chances when there's a proven alternative, unless it doesn't really matter.

----

By the way, if you don't like the manner of the doctor you chose, why don't you change? My own doctors have all been great, and I can ask all the questions I want. If I want to try something else instead of what's recommended, the most I get is, Well, give that a shot, but let's monitor the results.

And then I get to look at the results. I get to see the chart showing my blood iron levels, my cholesterol levels, my weight, height, heart rate and blood pressure.

It's interesting how good medicine has gotten at looking for anomalies in blood tests and such, and combining those facts with other things in order to determine what might be wrong. You know how they do that? By putting together the facts for huge groups of people over the centuries, retaining what works... and getting rid of what doesn't.

[Overtone]

I tire of this.

[Overtone]

I'm sorry... not trying to be a dick, since you did go to the trouble of writing up a long post. But I feel like you are missing the point of what I've been saying and because I've already said everything I care to on the topic several times already I really don't feel like continuing the discussion. It seems like you have your agenda and you don't care what I post anyway. I understand what scientific research, stats, etc. is about and know how to do hypothesis testing and all that, but I feel like there is also something out there called the spice of life and that science fails to describe every single thing out there. It's great for an academic perspective, for a professional perspective, etc. but when it comes to living life you have to use intuition and tradition where they can help you.

Ultimately I would like to find a better doctor, and will be trying to find a more GP type doc since I've had bad luck with ENTs. If there is an issue with sugar, inflammation or anything like that it's important to get to the root of it. It just costs me a lot of money and time to find a good doctor.

[Explorer]

On the negative side, you guys are much faster at typing at this point than I am.

On the positive side for the rest of you, I'm normally buried in my work day at this point, so you don't have to read all my crap. *laugh*

Originally Posted by Overtone

I have no loyalty to science.

Where I'm less skeptical is with remedies that are free or cost very little. There might not be science to back up the wild herbs my friend picks but I'm more than happy to make tea with them when he gives them to me. In fact his exact words were that he heard about the benefit of steam inhalation and the herbs are just his bit of whimsical folk medicine, so there was no effort to put that forth as science whatsoever. Those kind of things are the grey area.

Actually, you do maintain your "loyalty" to science (perhaps "reliance" is a better word) in matters where it matters to you. Using the example of you even being a member here, you clearly value the fruits of the scientific method when you want something to work. That's why you buy a computer, and appreciate the warranties and protections available.

It's possible you also buy a mouse which says it does one thing... but doesn't. It was cheap, so you don't worry about dropping a few bucks here and there on such things, in the same way you don't mind buying a pair of earphones which don't work.

I actually suspect you return those things, as they don't work as promised, as soon as it passes a threshold of money/importance/principle.

The problem with people giving creedence to "whimsical folk medicine" which has been unable to survive an actual test is that people then tend to give it creedence in bigger ways. The huge smokescreens thrown up by supplement and homeopathic remedy companies is one way in which bad medicine hurts people.

I have no doubt your friend is sincere, incidentally. I think you were making the case that you'd rather talk with someone pleasant, even if that person's advice is wrong.

I can understand.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Overtone

but I feel like there is also something out there called the spice of life

Hmmm, spice of life you say... What is the formula for that?

[Overtone]

You can't manufacture it in a lab, maaan! You have to feeeeel it!

[Jakke]

I don't believe you!

[Overtone]

When you play guitar, where do the notes come from? Is it simply the firing of neurons causing your muscles to contract leading to vibrations of a string? No... it comes from somewhere beyond. Can you prove that your music is more significant than monkeys randomly plucking strings?

[SirMyghin]

Actually it is the whole patterns of excitation and harmonic monvement of the string that make the note, quite literally. Where we place value has nothing to do with where the note comes from.

[Jakke]

That is a very good example of a harmonic oscillation, when you pluck the string, it vibrates and oscillates, making a difference in air pressure around it, causing a wave. If the string is longer, the slower it oscillates, you get a lower frequency (slower waves) and a lower note. The same, but reversed with a short string.

And anatomically:

The note actually comes from a specific frequency of sound that interacts with your eardrum, it is then transfered through nerves to your brain, that interpretes the vibration as a note.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by Overtone

When you play guitar, where do the notes come from? Is it simply the firing of neurons causing your muscles to contract leading to vibrations of a string? No... it comes from somewhere beyond. Can you prove that your music is more significant than monkeys randomly plucking strings?

Wait, are you making the case that music comes from beyond, or that music is random, or that, in order to prove you wrong, someone has to prove their music is significant?

However, if you're genuinely interested in music, and why humans perceive it the way they do, you might enjoy reading Music, the Brain, and Ecstasy: How Music Captures Our Imagination by Robert Jourdain. It's a good book with good science and research behind it.

Oh, wait! I get it! You're saying that, because you can't imagine music (and our enjoyment of it) arising from our brains, it must be something from beyond! Of course!

Nope. Read the book.

That's what's amazing about research. One never knows what science might look into, or just uncover through pure serendipity.

----

Related to your attempted point, there are those who feel that words have power apart from as a means of communication. There's a fascinating science-based book, though, which talks about the brain's ability to learn language, The Language Instinct by Stephen Pinker.

----

Don't feel bad about reaching for the "from beyond" thing. I hear this kind of thing all the time, even when my coworkers were talking about a chocolate cake being "Heavenly!" and "Divine!" *laugh*

However, don't expect others to have the same religious/mystical view that music comes from beyond....

And, if you need something to feel bad about, why not feel bad about reaching for a bad example to justify pseudoscience?

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by Jakke

Hmmm, spice of life you say... What is the formula for that?

It cannot be synthesized, it can only be mined on Arrakis.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by eaeolian

It cannot be synthesized, it can only be mined on Arrakis.

Hmmm, I think we are onto something here...

[Overtone]

Explorer I think you took my post a little too seriously. It was a tongue in cheek comment alluding to the eternal debate between science and spirituality, and the notion of the soul.

Spice of life.

[Explorer]

It was hard to tell if you were espousing that the way you espoused th... Ah!

I get it.

You're making the point that if a source is unreliable in one way, it's difficult to distinguish when it can be relied upon, and therefore should be abandoned when better sources are available.

I couldn't have made a better case myself. Well done!

[tuneinrecords]

Originally Posted by Fiction

This is getting ridiculous.. You're just throwing conspiracy after conspiracy.



You were just arguing that and now you turn to blame education, whilst still holding your stance on doctors not wanting to cure everyone. I'm on a phone so I really can't be bothered to type up an argument, but you need to hold your stance or accept that you're wrong. You can't just keep bringing in some wacky new theory of yours that is still hard to believe.

BTW - you butchered my quote - actually changed the words and meaning. Go back and see the original. Again I NEVER STATED THAT DRS DON'T WANT TO CURE PEOPLE. Geeez! I am holding my stance and I am not accepting that I'm wrong on this one. Get off the phone!

All these "conspiracies" are all part of the same ball of wax. That's why I'm bringing them up. That's all.

[Hemi-Powered Drone]

Originally Posted by Overtone

Explorer I think you took my post a little too seriously. It was a tongue in cheek comment alluding to the eternal debate between science and spirituality, and the notion of the soul.

Spice of life.

Can it really be considered a debate? Spirituality has no proof and science has all the proof. A debate implies that both sides can back up their arguments intelligently, something that spirituality and holistics cannot.

That's how it is, unless you can give me legitimate proof.

[tuneinrecords]

Originally Posted by Explorer

Bullshit. Here's why.
But you don't get it, and probably never will. It's sad, really.

Who's not "getting it" is a matter of debate. Sorry you're feeling sad too.

Please watch these videos and let me know what you think. Just some info about cancer cure suppression. I'll post more info later on. Gotta get some dinner. BRB.


fast forward in 1.5 minutes to avoid opening credits.

[tuneinrecords]

Regarding chem trails -

- The chemtrail program is also known as "Project Cloverleaf", and it is very compartmentalized. Even the pilots themselves have no real idea of why they are actually spraying.

- Chemtrails are a sub-program of the US Navy's Radio Frequency Mission Planner (RFMP) program called the Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation (VTRPE) - a system for creating 3D battlefield imaging that the US military has been using in Iraq and Afghanistan

- Some of the chemtrail contents are biological in nature such as BCTP - an anti-anthrax inoculation that was tested on US populations

- Clifford Carnicom has identified many of the very harmful biologicals coming out of chemtrails.

preview

full length

Even History Channel covered the topic.


weatherman talks about it on the evening news in California

[tuneinrecords]

Also to my dear Explorer -

You insist on putting words in my mouth so please refrain. You said it yourself - your responses are quite long, but you're twisting my words. I give you credit for your enthusiasm. It's all good.

You ask why wouldn't one DR or one person in the military step up and say something about the "conspiracies?" (see the last chem trail vid for example in previous post) There have been whistle blowers and people continually stand up and speak out. Do you think they're gonna interview them on the news which is run by the very same people they'd be rallying against?

It's no joke. People get murdered for speaking out. I'll get you a list of some ASAP. Dinner is ready. Stay tuned.

[Fiction]

I read your post wrong, i'm sorry for that..

If you had said;

So anyway, I do believe DR's want to cure everyone.

Instead of;

So anyway, no I don't believe DR's don't want to cure everyone.

That + Lack Of Sleep = Confused Fiction

[Overtone]

Originally Posted by dragonblade629

Can it really be considered a debate? Spirituality has no proof and science has all the proof. A debate implies that both sides can back up their arguments intelligently, something that spirituality and holistics cannot.

That's how it is, unless you can give me legitimate proof.

Fun is just NOT in your vocabulary is it?

[tuneinrecords]

OK Explorer you're in the brackets and quotes below and my responses are not. Trying to address each of your comments here. No shaky ground here, only lack of research by others who are simply uninformed and unwilling to accept an outside point because of a lifetime of indoctrination with a particular world view. It happens. I didn't find a lot of this info until the internet made researching and sharing information so much easier.

--------------
"The reason you don't think there's been any intelligent comments to ponder is that you appear impervious to them."
----------

Ok, I'm sorry there are some wonderfully intelligent comments on here. I retract that. I should have used a different word. How about this?
I'm looking for more informed comments. A lot of these seem uninformed and very slanted due to that ol' particular world view. People have largely been groomed to think a certain way. Who designed the education system to be the way it is? There's little room for free thought and creativity. It's shovel the shit in, get tested on it and become a good little worker bee. It takes a good 12 years to break a kid down.

I've been into this stuff for a while and checked into it. I'm convinced on a lot of things (not all) but I doubt a lot of people have looked that deeply into these matters and rather just blow them off as ridiculous because a lot of it is some pretty out there info. It disturbs that carefully crafted world view.

-----------------
"For example, you stated that there was a conspiracy to suppress a cancer cure. I broke down all the things which would have to be true for your conspiracy to succeed."
----------

You didn't really break things down that well. You did say a lot but there are flaws to your comments. Let's break them down. See below;

-------
"You came back with something which basically ignored the shaky ground upon which your conspiracy rests, and how only one doctor, anywhere in the world, could end it... while still talking about profit."
------------

There are a lot of comments on this thread and I don't have all day to reply to every comment. I'll do my best to address each one as I feel I can provide links to back this stuff up. Proof is different for a lot of people, I understand that, but like I said after spending so much time around this kind of information you are more qualified to make a judgement and decide for yourself.

-------------------
"Here's a few more ideas, which hopefully will make sense.

Have you ever met a doctor who wanted to help his or her patients?

I have

I have a friend who is a pediatric oncologist. We do kung fu together, and don't talk about her job often, but sometimes we do talk about things when she's had a hard day, and when she's been particularly affected by the death of a young patient.

Now, you're basically saying that she doesn't really want to cure these kids because she wants to profit from their suffering. I call bullshit on that.

I also have friends who go to the worst ....ing places as workers for Doctors without Borders. They risk death to help, and it's not about the money... although your conspiracy theory would require such a thing, to prevent there being a doctor willing to do something purely because they're a doctor.

All it would take is one doctor to break your proposed conspiracy, one doctor in the entire world.

Just one. "
-----------------------------

I actually said nothing about your friend Dr. not wanting to cure kids and profit from their suffering. You said that yourself and that's your story. That situation does nothing to change the fact that information control in the schools where the doctors learn limits them and along with certain laws which also limits them in treating patients. I never questioned the intentions of the doctors. I've said that before. They have the best intentions but are limited in what they can do as doctors and often times are indoctrinated to prescribe pills a lot. Not everyone is aware of other treatments. Watch some of those videos

And about your ONE MAGICAL DOCTOR TO SAVE THE WORLD THEORY -
there have been in fact more than one doctor who has had tried to make a difference and bring about cures and info. Watch the videos I posted. Check into it. Really. Again, people are in jail and are dead because of this stuff. Info is suppressed. I will provide more links if you don't want to look it up on your own. It's easy to find.

-------------------------------
"And, according to your premise, the conspiracy manages to suppress any single doctor who tries, no matter what country.

-------------------------------

I'm sure there are dr.'s who are not affected, but in the US there are laws and institutions in place to keep that good ol' status quo. Everyone play nice and don't rock the boat if you want to keep your reputation and career.

----------------------
Dude, can you really not smell what you're shoveling?"
------------------------------

Yes! It's the sweet smell of freedom and liberation! I'm shoveling honest to goodness helpful and insightful information. It's OK that some people don't appreciate it and disagree with it. It's a free country right? Sorta? Not so much anymore? Yeah, things are messed up.

----------------------------
"Incidentally, are you seriously claiming there's no information on disease prevention available? Or are you saying that the simple basic rules for living healthier require more literature to outweigh the highly technical writings on, say, how to kill a tumor without killing the person with the tumor?"
-------------------------------

There is info available, but there's an awful lot that isn't. A lot now is because of the internet of course, but people like you just think of it as quackery anyway. There's also health products and proven cures that are banned in the US (Americans travel for treatments to Mexico and Canada and Europe). Literature and things that get published all depends on whether it's in the interests in keeping with the status quo. Change never comes easy. It's been that way all through history. The powers that be don't like to be challenged.

--------------------
"I suspect that when/if you finally get to university study, you'd do well taking a few basic science courses, in order to gain at least a basic clue as to the scientific method."
-------------------------------

FYI I graduated cum laude from University in 1999 and have a continued love for education and learning that gets better with every year of my life. I do have respect for science but as I stated earlier it is not immune to the affects of private interests, corporations, greed, corruption, etc.....

----------------------------
"[B]Short version: How do you think the vast cancer cure suppression conspiracy manages to control every doctor in every country? Money wouldn't work in the case of my friend, so come up with an alternate mechanism. Let's hear your intelligent thoughts on this, as opposed to, It just does!"
-----------------------------

I hope by now there's enough info that I'm not saying "it just does." I've had nothing but intelligent thoughts all along. Intelligent thoughts though they may be disagreed with are not as others may deem "off" or whatever.

Every country? Ever hear of multinational corporations? And no not all countries have the same restrictions on what you can do to treat a patient and no i'm not talking about things that are barbaric or whatever, but things that really work. Things that have been proven. Oh, there's that ugly word. The system won't prove what it's trying to suppress. Pull your nose back from the page a bit and look more at the big picture. Again check out the videos if you have not already.