Judge videotaped beating daughter with belt (NO VIDEO)

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

And beating your own parents for not dealing with you according to your standards is senseless violence. You can't claim spanking kids is wrong, yet actually say that violence should be combated with more violence.

The main issue is that we disagree and that's fine. I don't think I'm any more right than you are and vice versa..HOWEVER I wouldn't suggest that laws be passed to keep you from disciplining your child how you see fit regardless of whether or not I think it's wrong.

No, it is treating the parent how they treat you. In other words, retribution. Or perhaps prevention of damage being done to me. There is no reason a child should stand for being beaten, belted or smacked. Combating it with physical violence is a way to prevent damage being do to the child.

Yes, I'll agree to disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to differ in opinion. Just remember that everyone's opinion is valid, yours and mine. And if a law were to be passed stating smacking and belting are illegal, everyone would have to comply. Just like it is currently legal to belt and smack.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by NatG

No, it is treating the parent how they treat you. In other words, retribution. Or perhaps prevention of damage being done to me. There is no reason a child should stand for being beaten, belted or smacked. Combating it with physical violence is a way to prevent damage being do to the child.

Yes, I'll agree to disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to differ in opinion. Just remember that everyone's opinion is valid, yours and mine. And if a law were to be passed stating smacking and belting are illegal, everyone would have to comply. Just like it is currently legal to belt and smack.

Wouldn't make it right..and that is my point. How you feel is how you feel but that doesn't automatically cancel out people who feel spanking their kids is logical.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

Wouldn't make it right..and that is my point. How you feel is how you feel but that doesn't automatically cancel out people who feel spanking their kids is logical.

Well if I were to hypothetically belt my child I'd expect them to use physical violence toward me to resist the beating, because there's no reason they should put up with me doing such a thing.

If you were to beat your children then I believe you are doing something wrong, but you believe you're not doing anything wrong. Let us leave it at that

[kmanick]

I could only watch the first couple of minutes of this.
Anyone that hits a child like that (especially a girl) needs to have the shit kicked out of him (which he probably did by his father on a regular basis , hence he thinks this is 'OK').
I could not even begin to imagine doing anything like that to my daughter.
Violence breeds violence.
My old man used to use the belt on me and the only thing it did was piss me to
to the point that when I was big enough, I fought back.
needless to say we did not have a "good" relationship.
A parent that strikes their child is usually doing so out of their own frustration.
As far as I'm concerend if you feel that beating your child is "OK" you have no business being a parent.

[Daggorath]

Some of the posts in here make me feel a little queezy. Physical punishment for children is NEVER ok with me. Discipline is sometimes needed, but there are much better ways. Being stern with your children will make them fear you, but it wont make them agree with you. The best parents seen are those that push their children to think for themselves and nurture their critical capacities, via encouragement when they do good, and rational conversation when there's an issue. People make mistakes, you cannot reap from experience and grow if you're always terrified of making a mistake. Sure, repeatedly bad behaviour requires some form of action; but if you aren't creative enough, or don't understand your kids values adequately enough to devise an alternative punishment, then you've got a problem.

[ghostred7]

I grew up with belt and switch...NEVER feared my parents, only respected them, we had an outstanding relationship. They never belittled me, never cussed at me, never made me feel unsafe...but damn sure knew I shouldn't screw up and to respect their house and them. I was unruly, but never violent. In fact, I even shyed away from violence until well into adulthood (then I joined the Army and got plenty).

I also never belted/switched MY kids....never really needed to. I've worn their tails out before, but was with my hand, even then was on a rare occasion. They're now 14 & 12 and I haven't had to do more than fuss a little over the last 6yrs-ish. They're not scared of me, we have a friggin' awesome relationship.

Today's society has entered our homes entirely too much. By half the logic I see here, I'm being told that for a 2 y/o baby, it's better to grab their hand away from the stove and just simply tell them 'NO!' or to let them burn themselves to get the point across. .... that. Their little hand needs a smack to go with the "NO!" and they'll get the point (not saying it has to be hard, but enough to get the point across...especially can tell when they stop and look to see who's watching before they cry to get sympathy).

I wonder how many of the "don't-spank" people here are actual parents, especially parents of early teens or older. Even then, every child is an individual. I've seen tons of children that never got spanked and their parents followed the "nuture only, no spank" direction and those children are now in early 20s, and have been in jail or hooked on severe drugs.

[groph]

Read through the thread, I'll point out a few things first to clarify

The biggest one being that I posted in anger, I watched the video and I had to stop at about 1:40 just from the way she was crying. Then I watched the rest of it and my blood was running hot and my heartbeat was up. If I was there in that room I probably would have strangled her father to death, I can NOT take watching a kid getting beaten like that. I get extremely angry when I see anybody getting beaten, especially in that atmosphere of total one-sided dominance; I think that's one of the worst things a human being can do to another.

- Yes, the mother intervened and there was a lot of debate on Reddit as to whether or not she was trying to placate the father or if she's just as twisted and deserving of punishment as he is.

- I know, 7 minutes of video doesn't tell the entire story.

- to reiterate, I posted in anger and now that my head is a bit more clear I can see other perspectives. This is sensationalized and this kind of abuse, unfortunately happens all the time and it's totally fine in other cultures.

The worst physical punishment I ever got was a smack on the knuckles with a pen. For some reason I remember that. Aside from that my parents would tell me what I did, I got lots of time outs, groundings, and things taken away but I was never hit. My mother suffered a period of abuse from her father and I understand that it is her opinion that one should never hit a child.

It's been my opinion that if you have to hit your kid to discipline them, you've failed as a parent somewhere. Of course, I've never had kids so my point of view is almost totally ignorant and pretty ideal. I've never had a belligerent little shit undermine my authority and damage my property with a smile on his face, for example. Realistically, I don't think I'd jump to conclusions and condemn a parent for giving a kid five across the eyes every now and then when they get completely out of line because this parent probably puts up with a lot of shit and they provide everything for the child. If they're otherwise a good parent then I guess the odd smack is excusable, it's not going to psychologically .... a person up THAT badly. I have no sympathy for alcoholic or drug addicted parents who are only parents in the biological sense who treat their kids like scum. None.

Also, I think the instance in the video sets some things apart. That's not discipline, that's a ....ing monster trying to establish a pecking order. He's hauling into her with that belt and the things he's saying to her are straight out of a rape porn. I interpret her silence at the end as her bottling away the damage because it's been visited on her many times. If that's what the pattern of her "discipline" has been like, then, in my opinion, yes she has definitely beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind suffered terrible physical abuse and her father should be punished to the fullest extent possible. One video probably isn't going to do much. Might make matters worse, his career might be tarnished and he could track her down with a vengeance. She never deserved to have gotten hit in the first place, and she doesn't deserve to be hit again.

As much as we romanticize childhood as some pure state of innocence, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a child (or spouse, anybody really) should have to come home to THAT kind of environment. An abusive father/husband is a cancer in a household. I'd imagine abusive mothers are similar.

EDIT: If I had to take a belt to a kid of mine, I'd give them a good whack across the legs. Not literally anywhere the belt happens to hit, and I wouldn't be cursing at them and saying things like "Turn over and take it" while I'm doing it. I also wouldn't be putting my back into it as if they were an animal I was trying to break. That's my point here, I really think this judge is going far, far beyond discipline and into the realm of "you are below me as a person, fear me."

EDIT EDIT: I'd never take a belt to a kid. I hope if I got that angry I'd remove myself from the situation for a while until I calmed down. I know I would scream my lungs off at them and probably break stuff around me because I can get violent when I'm angry enough but I haven't hit another human being since I was nine, and I did that as a dominance display, I remember the feeling.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by ghostred7

Today's society has entered our homes entirely too much. By half the logic I see here, I'm being told that for a 2 y/o baby, it's better to grab their hand away from the stove and just simply tell them 'NO!' or to let them burn themselves to get the point across. .... that. Their little hand needs a smack to go with the "NO!" and they'll get the point (not saying it has to be hard, but enough to get the point across...especially can tell when they stop and look to see who's watching before they cry to get sympathy).

Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by NatG

Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.

Not true. If hitting kids taught children that violence was fine, me and several others would be prize fighters by now. I haven't been in a real fight since I was a kid and I didn't initiate it..nor did I win.

I'm not a violent person, I've never hit anyone be it parents, lovers, whatever, nor do I think it's alright to resort to violence out of emotional distress.

What a child learns when they get their hand smacked is that when Mommy/Daddy says something, they mean it and there are consequences for going against it. Don't like the smack? Don't do it. It's pretty simple.

That mimicks the real world. There are consequences for the wrong behavior and many of the consequences are painful. If you want to avoid said pain, you do what you're supposed to do.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

Not true. If hitting kids taught children that violence was fine, me and several others would be prize fighters by now. I haven't been in a real fight since I was a kid and I didn't initiate it..nor did I win.

I'm not a violent person, I've never hit anyone be it parents, lovers, whatever, nor do I think it's alright to resort to violence out of emotional distress.

What a child learns when they get their hand smacked is that when Mommy/Daddy says something, they mean it and there are consequences for going against it. Don't like the smack? Don't do it. It's pretty simple.

That mimicks the real world. There are consequences for the wrong behavior and many of the consequences are painful. If you want to avoid said pain, you do what you're supposed to do.

Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong.

What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear.

Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.

[Grand Moff Tim]

The spanking vs anti-spanking debate has always felt a little weird to me. My parents spanked me and I neither hold it against them nor feel that they failed as parents for having done it, and I also like to think that I turned out alright. However, I realize that that is purely anecdotal and that circumstances can vary widely.

As an aside, if someone in real life were to tell me that my parents were failures because they spanked me, I would consider it an unforgiveable offense and they would never again be welcome in my household.

[Rev2010]

Always this argument about hitting kids. It's been done since the dawn of time. Of course serious beatings are wrong, and unlawful, but a small spanking and such is not a huge deal and is sometimes necessary. I haven't seen this vid so I can't comment but it's sounds way overboard. However, you know those kids on the Nanny shows? You know, the one's that SPIT in the mothers face and hits the parent? 95% of the time those kids NEED a beating to break their habits and the reason they have those habits are because there's lack of a "policing" force. The parent takes away their game system as punishment they simply go and get it cause they know where it is. The parent makes them stand in the corner they simply walk the .... away. There's nothing preventing them from doing just what they want. And then they get mad and spit in the parents face and face no penalty whatsoever, or something they easily undo or don't go along with.

Just like the whole bullying thing. The greater majority of the time if you kick the bully's ass they will not bother you ever again. I had people start shit with me in elementary school because I was always one of the tallest in the class. The other kids would always start shit by saying, "Who do you think would win in a fight, Peter or xxxx??". As a result, I'd always have some dumbass challenging me to a fight. And I always kicked the kids ass and the funny thing was nearly every time they became a good friend afterward.

Believe it or not physical pain is an innate learning mechanism. Just like how as a little kid you touch a hot stove, get burned, and learn to never do that again. Of course talking to a kid is the best method to go with first, but what do you do when you talk to the kid, he pacify's you by promising it won't happen again and claiming to understand, then goes and does it again? Where do you go from there? Take away toys and all that shit, but then what if the kid keeps doing it? No matter what you try peacefully if the kid keeps doing wrong what do you do?

When I was a kid a friend of mine and I stole from some stores. We eventually got caught stealing at one store. His mother beat the living shit out of him in front of me. SHE took shit too far - she grabbed him by the hair and threw him around the living room punching him etc. My mother beat me with a wooden spoon, which I look back on as not all that bad. Did my friend or myself ever steal again? .... no! Not once. If instead my mother sat me down to a cup of tea and a talk and that's all that happened I probably would've taken the chance again because there was no risk of any worrisome punishment.

All this aside, people need to stop butting their nose into other people's business. If someone wants to spank their child as punishment that is their business unless they are going way too far. A spanking isn't anywhere near the same as punching a 2 year old square in the face for example. That would deserve the parent being locked up and the child going into another family member's custody. But saying no physical punishment whatsoever should be tolerated is Utopian and unrealistic.


Rev.

[groph]

Originally Posted by NatG

Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.

Yeah here's where I feel conflicted. I hate the idea of state influence interfering with private lives and telling people how they should be living or what they should be recycling, I just live in this dream world where everybody has a good head on their shoulders and thinks for a moment before they do something. Definitely not reality, kids and parents are different and yes obviously some kids live terrible lives at the hands of their parents. It just irks me to think that the bad parents have effects on the good parents by way of state interventions (like if a good parent hits a kid once and child services gets called in) but I guess I shouldn't be too worried about good parents.

In the specific example of a baby's hand and a hot stove, I'd intervene because i don't think it's worth having second degree burns on your kid's palm so you can prove a point. I'd pull the kid away and then show them how hot the burner is by lighting a small piece of paper on fire, or something like that. Then they'd realize that they're a ....ing idiot and I know better Also, why is the baby around a hot stove in the first place? There's also a good reason for those outlet plugs that prevent those idiot babies from electrocuting themselves. Until a kid is old enough to go to school, a parent's only job is to literally ensure their kid doesn't die.

I think the biggest risk of abuse coming from me would be in a situation where a kid doesn't respect my parental authority, but the way I see it now, that'd be my fault because I didn't instill the sense early on. Maybe the kid is just by nature an insubordinate little asshole. I'd have to show dominance SOMEHOW (I scoff whenever I hear a parent do "I'm going to count to three") without making idle threats or literally beating the piss out of the kid (risking him turning into an able bodied teenager who will be more than capable of kicking my geriatric ass when shit hits the fan). I'm just not the greatest at being angry. I don't really have a temper (that I know of) but I just don't handle anger very well and it scares me to think that I might lash out at a kid or wife/girlfriend. Spousal and child abuse breaks my heart, sad panda X 10 ^ 99999999999. Pretty much up there with genocide. The thought of me doing it scares me.

Ugh. I'm worrying too much about this debacle. I'm really not a violent person, I just break shit when I get mad and I'll probably be grown out of it by the time I'm old enough for kids.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by NatG

Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong.

What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear.

Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.

It's a child..you aren't a parent to be a child's buddy and be on the same level. You are NOT on the same level as your parents..they are your parents. They are to be respected..there is no "I demand respect from my parents". You don't demand anything, respect is earned by doing the right things. Obviously if your parent feels the need to tan your hide because they've told you something multiple times and you've decided to go against them, you haven't earned any respect because you've proven that left to your own devices you will make the wrong decisions. It's a parents job to stop that.

We all have a fear of pain and violence..anyone with sense has a fear of pain and violence. We learn through spankings that parents are not on our level and we don't get to override their authority. We learn that going against them causes negative outcome, and we learn later in life that they did it not just because they're evil, but because it kept us out of harm's way.

Don't think bad choices in the real world = pain? Pick a fight with a gang member, bad mouth a Biker gang's women, kill someone in a state where the death penalty exists, run with scissors and your shoes untied, taunt the neighbors angry pitbull, do something stupid and end up in as fresh meat in jail..preferably around shower time

Want emotional pain?
Quit your only job when you have bills to pay and mouths to feed, cheat on your wife and let her find out, be an ass and alienate yourself from everyone you love

You do these things and NO harm comes to you, you'd be a lucky man. When we do the wrong things, we get hurt. We learn that early on

[kmanick]

thee is quite a difference between "a spanking" and what the ....ing idiot in this video was doing.
I whole heartedly believe a well placed smack across the bottom will get the message across (My daughter knows where the line is that she cannot cross and she's only 9)
Swearing at your kid and maliciously whipping them like a ....ing mule is not the way to discipline a child, or to teach them what's right and wrong.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

It's a child..you aren't a parent to be a child's buddy and be on the same level. You are NOT on the same level as your parents..they are your parents. They are to be respected..there is no "I demand respect from my parents". You don't demand anything, respect is earned by doing the right things. Obviously if your parent feels the need to tan your hide because they've told you something multiple times and you've decided to go against them, you haven't earned any respect because you've proven that left to your own devices you will make the wrong decisions. It's a parents job to stop that.

We all have a fear of pain and violence..anyone with sense has a fear of pain and violence. We learn through spankings that parents are not on our level and we don't get to override their authority. We learn that going against them causes negative outcome, and we learn later in life that they did it not just because they're evil, but because it kept us out of harm's way.

Don't think bad choices in the real world = pain? Pick a fight with a gang member, bad mouth a Biker gang's women, kill someone in a state where the death penalty exists, run with scissors and your shoes untied, taunt the neighbors angry pitbull, do something stupid and end up in as fresh meat in jail..preferably around shower time

Want emotional pain?
Quit your only job when you have bills to pay and mouths to feed, cheat on your wife and let her find out, be an ass and alienate yourself from everyone you love

You do these things and NO harm comes to you, you'd be a lucky man. When we do the wrong things, we get hurt. We learn that early on

Only the law dictates that children are not equal to adults. That does not mean it isn't true that they are. There is no reason for a parent to belt their child, because if they did that to an adult they'd face consequences. Children should have equal rights to adults in terms of how they can be treated. I completely disagree with the way society views this matter. If a child is being physically or verbally abused then I fully support their overhauling of a parent's authority.

I demand respect from any person, because I give them respect. It is about reciprocation. Likewise if I am not respected, then I will not show the disrespector any respect whatsoever. I wouldn't expect any respect from my kid if I didn't respect them.

As for whipping/belting... it is just barbaric and unneccessary. In the case of the news article presented in this thread... it was for what? Breaking a minor rule. It requires a stern talking, if that! The Judge is twisted, sadistic and sick.

The pain in terms of brutal violence you talk of are also things which I strongly disagree with happening.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by NatG

Only the law dictates that children are not equal to adults. That does not mean it isn't true that they are. There is no reason for a parent to belt their child, because if they did that to an adult they'd face consequences. Children should have equal rights to adults in terms of how they can be treated. I completely disagree with the way society views this matter.

I demand respect from any person, because I give them respect. It is about reciprocation. Likewise if I am not respected, then I will not show the disrespector any respect whatsoever. I wouldn't expect any respect from my kid if I didn't respect them.

As for whipping/belting... it is just barbaric and unneccessary. In the case of the news article presented in this thread... it was for what? Breaking a minor rule. It requires a stern talking, if that!

You do realize that you're making broad generalizations on what all children need, right? Do you have kids? You seem very passionate about not hitting kids. Some kids don't need it. Different discipline styles for different kids. Don't like hitting them? Don't do it, but when you try to lecture other or correct others on why they think spanking is necessary, you've already lost. The issue is that people can deal with their kids how they see fit.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

You do realize that you're making broad generalizations on what all children need, right? Do you have kids? You seem very passionate about not hitting kids. Some kids don't need it. Different discipline styles for different kids. Don't like hitting them? Don't do it, but when you try to lecture other or correct others on why they think spanking is necessary, you've already lost. The issue is that people can deal with their kids how they see fit.

I think that just sums your mentality up. I find it completely appalling.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by NatG

Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong.

What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear.

Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.

What a jaded view of the world you have NatG. Ive listened to your opinion silently now for a while and honestly what proof do you have to back up these statements? Your phrase earlier "If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out!" makes you sound like a silly little child. No you wouldn't have punched his lights out, becase A) you were and for all i know probably are still a child and B) you'd still have shown your father respect. Because that is what children are supposed to do. Show respect to elders and take heed of their words and teachings. You obviously have no children and you don;t know what its like when you can't reason or verbally discipline one so don't pass judgement.

Lets look at some facts here. In the past decade in Britain smacking has been a taboo subject and as a result of which many parents stopped doing it. This generation of children are in uni, college and late schooling. What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays?



Did we have this 20 years ago? NO. Children had respect for adults because they knew if they misbehaved they would get a clip round the ear or a spanking.

Fast forward back to today, people such as yourself find smacking to be totally wrong because you grew up without it. Sure your home life might have turned out fine, but for thousands of others without any form of physical punishment theyve turned into kids without any real direction in life who think they can do anything and get away with it. The same COULD be said about her home life. What if she had carried on downloading music (which her father had repeadedly told her not to do previously, as shown in the video) and got caught? Her fathers career would have been over, she would have had a ridiculous fine and she would have suffered for the rest of her life.

The girl in question was beaten with a belt yes. But lets look at how she turned out, shes seems to be a rather normal young lady with a talent for playing the piano, and she's obviously very bitter at her father. I don't see her stabbing old women for change on street corners.... Yes i am generalizing but what i am saying is correct.

Obviously by teaching children no form of physical discipline at all many think its ok to go round loitering on street corners, scaring the general public and generally being a pain in the ass. Respect in society isn't learnt through respectful behaviour. Many people are simply too stupid for that. Respect is learnt primairly through fear and obedience. That is the whole point of the child/parent relationship. You see it in nature all the time.

Let me make this clear. What the father did in this instance was a little extreme yes. But at the same time what else can you do when a child simply will not listen? We don't know the full story, and probably never will.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by Dan

What a jaded view of the world you have NatG. Ive listened to your opinion silently now for a while and honestly what proof do you have to back up these statements? Your phrase earlier "If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out!" makes you sound like a silly little child. No you wouldn't have punched his lights out, becase A) you were and for all i know probably are still a child and B) you'd still have shown your father respect. Because that is what children are supposed to do. Show respect to elders and take heed of their words and teachings.

Lets look at some facts here. In the past decade in Britain smacking has been a taboo subject and as a result of which many parents stopped doing it. This generation of children are in uni, college and late schooling. What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays?

Did we have this 20 years ago? NO. Children had respect for adults because they knew if they misbehaved they would get a clip round the ear or a spanking.

Fast forward back to today, people such as yourself find smacking to be totally wrong because you grew up without it. Sure your home life might have turned out fine, but for thousands of others without any form of physical punishment theyve turned into kids without any real direction in life who think they can do anything and get away with it. The same COULD be said about her home life. What if she had carried on downloading music (which her father had repeadedly told her not to do previously, as shown in the video) and got caught? Her fathers career would have been over, she would have had a ridiculous fine and she would have suffered for the rest of her life.

The girl in question was beaten with a belt yes. But lets look at how she turned out, shes seems to be a rather normal young lady with a talent for playing the piano, and she's obviously very bitter at her father. I don't see her stabbing old women for change on street corners.... Yes i am generalizing but what i am saying is correct.

Obviously by teaching children no form of physical discipline at all many think its ok to go round loitering on street corners, scaring the general public and generally being a pain in the ass. Respect in society isn't learnt through respectful behaviour. Many people are simply too stupid for that. Respect is learnt primairly through fear and obedience. That is the whole point of the child/parent relationship. You see it in nature all the time.

Let me make this clear. What the father did in this instance was a little extreme yes. But at the same time what else can you do when a child simply will not listen? We don't know the full story, and probably never will.

If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted.

The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing.

If I'd been reared with smacking/beating, I'd have most likely rebelled. Because that isn't the way I nor any other child should be treated.

He didn't have to belt his daughter. He could've sat and had a chat with her about why ilegally downloading music is wrong, and thus preventing damage to his career.

[Mordacain]

I got spanked all of once in my life when I was 8; I had disobeyed them after they warned me not to swing a stick inside, I broke a glass pane in a light fixture and dropped broken glass around me. My dad never talked to me while doing it, he hit me hard enough to make my ass numb in 1 hit. I got hit not for disobeying them, but because I could have really hurt myself for disobeying them. He let the hurt sink in for a half hour or so and then came to tell me that. Disrespect, disobedience did not earn beatings in my house. In fact, my dad would challenge me as I got older to put-up or shut-up. The idea was that if I wanted to stand toe to toe with my old man, then I would be an equal. I didn't get verbal abuse, though I might get told the truth of how I was acting at the time. Personally, I think that's how physical discipline should be done. Just a random beating doesn't instill a lesson other than to perhaps fear your parent's temper. Physical discipline has to be done in response to something where pain would be the natural outcome for it to mean something, like smacking a kids' hand when they reach for a burner instead of letting them learn "oh, that's ....ing hot" by letting them burn themselves.

Obviously, I think this punishment was not only above the line but useless, obviously the girl realized the behavior was wrong. What really bugs me about this is the verbal assault, the beating is pointless and stupid, but the words are what really hurt me. Placing myself in the girls shoes, hearing that from my parents would make me like a worthless piece of shit - and no parent should do that to their kids.

MY

[Dan]

Originally Posted by NatG

If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted.

How can you say you wouldn't show your father respect if he had done that? You haven't lived that life so you have no idea what you would have done. You simply imply that you wouldn't respect him based on how you were actually brought up.

My father used phyical punishment on me and i respect and love him more than ever. I will do it to my children if they need to be phyically disciplined because it will teach them never to do it again. Smacking hurts, and used as a deterrent it can be extremely effective againt a child who will not listen to their parents.

Originally Posted by NatG

The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing.

That's a completely ridiculous and stupid assumption to make. Many troubled children come from perfectly normal families. Most of which don't condone disciplining their child when they do something wrong. Prime FACTUAL example, my bands previous drummer stole our singers phone and was according to the police a serial offender. His parents were perfectly normal individuals, not theifs or sccumbags like their son.

Also by your reasoning i should be going round beating people, but i should also be a doctor and should drink sherry. Those are my parents, not me. Everyone has their own mind, but if they arn't taught respect somehow then they will never use it in the future.

Originally Posted by NatG

If I'd been reared with smacking/beating, I'd have most likely rebelled. Because that isn't the way I nor any other child should be treated.

He didn't have to belt his daughter. He could've sat and had a chat with her about why ilegally downloading music is wrong, and thus preventing damage to his career.

I was smacked and belted. I never rebelled, why would you have done differently? Ohh yes thats right because everyone has their own mind and opinion. You can't say for certain you would have. That a preposterous statement to make. Your opinion is that no child should ever be smacked or given phyical discipline. When you have children i cant wait to see that opinion strained.

No he didn't have to belt his daughter. But the previous conversations he had with her about the issue obviously didn't give any effect to the situation so he tried a different approach. Granted he went too far with it but what he did was overall a logical solution.

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by NatG

If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted.

The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing.

If I'd been reared with smacking/beating, I'd have most likely rebelled. Because that isn't the way I nor any other child should be treated.

He didn't have to belt his daughter. He could've sat and had a chat with her about why ilegally downloading music is wrong, and thus preventing damage to his career.

You haven't answered the question..do you have kids? How old are they? What has worked with them. And how old are you? I'm honestly not asking to badger but to make a point (and no..not the point that you don't know anything because you have no kids..not my point)

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by Dan

How can you say you wouldn't show your father respect if he had done that? You haven't lived that life so you have no idea what you would have done. You simply imply that you wouldn't respect him based on how you were actually brought up.

My father used phyical punishment on me and i respect and love him more than ever. I will do it to my children if they need to be phyically disciplined because it will teach them never to do it again. Smacking hurts, and used as a deterrent it can be extremely effective againt a child who will not listen to their parents.

That's a completely ridiculous and stupid assumption to make. Many troubled children come from perfectly normal families. Most of which don't condone disciplining their child when they do something wrong. Prime FACTUAL example, my bands previous drummer stole our singers phone and was according to the police a serial offender. His parents were perfectly normal individuals, not theifs or sccumbags like their son.

Also by your reasoning i should be going round beating people, but i should also be a doctor and should drink sherry. Those are my parents, not me. Everyone has their own mind, but if they arn't taught respect somehow then they will never use it in the future.

I was smacked and belted. I never rebelled, why would you have done differently? Ohh yes thats right because everyone has their own mind and opinion. You can't say for certain you would have. That a preposterous statement to make. Your opinion is that no child should ever be smacked or given phyical discipline. When you have children i cant wait to see that opinion strained.

No he didn't have to belt his daughter. But the previous conversations he had with her about the issue obviously didn't give any effect to the situation so he tried a different approach. Granted he went too far with it but what he did was overall a logical solution.

With regards to the person I am, that is exactly what I'd have done. If I'd been reared with smacking/belting, I doubt it'd have been different. Though obviously I can't prove that to you. 'kmanick' stated earlier in this thread that he was belted, and when he was able to he fought back. He obviously wasn't respecting his dad's authority, because he believed it to be wrong. As would I in that situation. I never said I can say for certain, but I'm 99.999% sure.

Your parents smacked you, and yes, you were fine with it. But you've also learned from their example that you can go ahead and smack your children. The downsides to it you're ignorant of.

'Troubled children' almost always come from disturbing backgrounds or were influenced by what they were experienced and what they saw. Take the lads in the photo earlier. They live on what looks like a council flat estate. Throughout their life they'll have experienced poverty and perhaps a low brow father who didn't instill moral values upon them at a young age. Thus, they turn to crime and violence for money and perhaps kicks. They think that is fine because they haven't had a good example set to them.

On the other side of the coin, take myself. I was raised by my mother on a 'middle class' estate. My mother brought me up with understanding of right and wrong, kindness and encouragement. I've turned out the complete opposite of those lads. Perhaps if I'd been raised like them it'd have been different.

Using violence on his daughter like that was completely unneccessary. Perhaps he could've prevented her from access to the internet if she hadn't behaved. But no, because he is sadistic he decided to whip her with a belt.

Originally Posted by DrakkarTyrannis

You haven't answered the question..do you have kids? How old are they? What has worked with them. And how old are you? I'm honestly not asking to badger but to make a point (and no..not the point that you don't know anything because you have no kids..not my point)

He didn't ask a direct question. I've no kids, just understanding of what worked with me. I am 18.

[Mordacain]

Originally Posted by Dan

What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays?



Did we have this 20 years ago? NO. Children had respect for adults because they knew if they misbehaved they would get a clip round the ear or a spanking.

And before that we had:



I get what you're saying, but hoodlums and miscreants are nothing new and I seriously doubt its due to a lack of physical discipline throughout the ages.