Frankly, I'm disgusted..

[Jakke]

Prayer can cure, churches tell those with HIV - Health News, Health & Families - The Independent


That is all

[vampiregenocide]

This is why I think we need to take a better look at the right to freedom of speech. This is dangerous stuff.

[Vostre Roy]

I do believe that it takes more than pills to cure any disease, you somehow have to believe that you'll be cured, it can either be a divine intervention or strong believing about your body's capacity to heal. Owever, it helps, but not as much as prescriptions drugs, especially in HIV or other really deadly deceases.

Those religious fanatics should be prosecuted for giving false "medical" advices to people who are weakened by their decease and that could easily lead to their death.

[Sephael]

Originally Posted by Vostre Roy

weakened by their decease

Freudian slip?

[urklvt]

Having grown up in and around all of that BS it's really nothing new to me, and in fact it's rather tame compared to some stuff I dealt with, especially in my own home.

One of these days I'm going to put it all in print (or the iBooks store) but for now, suffice it to say, I have renounced Christianity.

[chronocide]

Foo Fighters are in on this stuff too. Or at least they used to be and Nate Mendel definitely still is.

Well, sort of. He's a big proponent of the groups that claim "HIV isn't real, don't take your medication, you'll be fine!" Morons.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by chronocide

Foo Fighters are in on this stuff too. Or at least they used to be and Nate Mendel definitely still is.

Well, sort of. He's a big proponent of the groups that claim "HIV isn't real, don't take your medication, you'll be fine!" Morons.

Seriously? These guys did a gig against the WBC I would've thought they'd be more savvy when it comes to that sort of thing.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by urklvt

One of these days I'm going to put it all in print (or the iBooks store) but for now, suffice it to say, I have renounced Christianity.

I'd read that book

[BucketheadRules]

.... that.

This pretty much confirms my suspicions that basically all evangelists are ....ing stupid.

[chronocide]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

Seriously? These guys did a gig against the WBC I would've thought they'd be more savvy when it comes to that sort of thing.

HIV Dissidence Debate | Mother Jones

That's a response from Mendel after an article had slagged Foo Fighters off for being HIV denialists.

Note, the charity he supports, Alive and Well AIDS Alternatives, was founded by the now deceased (due to AIDS) Christine Maggiore, who tested HIV+ but refused treatment and also refused to have her daughter treated, also resulting in her death.

[Dvaienat]

The preachers who believe this are clearly suffering from delusion. Most likely due to indoctrination in young childhood. And the worst thing is that some more deluded people will take their claims seriously and stop taking medicines. In other words they are leading people to their graves.

Religion is a complete falsity made up by the powerful to control the people. I wish people would just wake up to that fact, and stop believing in things which are both illogical and have no proof. There is no sky fairy. We have to take responsibility for our actions here, on earth, in this life.

[Sephael]

Worse still, honestly, is that a lot of rural Africans believe that having sex with a young girl will cure the Aids

[Edika]

I am a bit confused, this is happening in Africa or in the UK?
If it happens in Africa I can accept that people can be misguided due to the state of most of the African countries, poverty, bad education and not easy access to information.
If it is happening in the UK then I am shocked that people would believe these kind of claims.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Edika

I am a bit confused, this is happening in Africa or in the UK?
If it happens in Africa I can accept that people can be misguided due to the state of most of the African countries, poverty, bad education and not easy access to information.
If it is happening in the UK then I am shocked that people would believe these kind of claims.

Happens in the UK and the US, probably in other places too

[Edika]

People or churches can claim whatever they want and I disagree even joking about freedom of speech. At these day and age we have all available information do make a decision. That of course requires good judgement and a critical mind. If these people believe that prayer will cure them and not medication for whatever reasons (despair, faith, outright stupidity) then it is their choice. They will be missed by their loved ones but not by me!

Now concerning the church itself there could be a legal case of exploitation of religious beliefs since there is no scientific proof that prayer cures HIV. This is false advertizing and endangerment of human lives. If church wants to provide moral support for these people ok but leave science to scientist and medical issues to MD's.

[Jakke]

Originally Posted by Edika

People or churches can claim whatever they want and I disagree even joking about freedom of speech. At these day and age we have all available information do make a decision. That of course requires good judgement and a critical mind. If these people believe that prayer will cure them and not medication for whatever reasons (despair, faith, outright stupidity) then it is their choice. They will be missed by their loved ones but not by me!

Now concerning the church itself there could be a legal case of exploitation of religious beliefs since there is no scientific proof that prayer cures HIV. This is false advertizing and endangerment of human lives. If church wants to provide moral support for these people ok but leave science to scientist and medical issues to MD's.

I think we should round them all up for false advertising... After all, they are selling a product that can't be measured, quantified, or percieved in any kind of way. How is that different from a con-man selling boxes of air to little old ladies?

-We promise it'll be worth your while...

Well, I promise that if you invest 5000$ in my business, it'll be worth five times as much in 500 years. How do I know that? I know it in my heart, and it says it's true in this book I've written myself. And if you don't believe me and give me the money, I will have punish you, sorry about that, it's all out of my hands, but take comfort in that I love you and all humanity anyway.
Ok, you can make the check out to J-a-k-o-b....

[Waelstrum]

Originally Posted by Edika

I disagree even joking about freedom of speech.

Basically, I agree. The great thing about freedom of speech is that when you don't like what someone is saying, you can use your own speech to counter it. I do, however, think that distributing potentially fatally bad medical advice should have legal ramifications. If a doctor knowingly prescribes the wrong medicine then it's murder, but if a church does it's faith.

[Fred the Shred]

And then people say I have a peculiar faith because I don't believe God has anything to do with nature's course. Pray if it strengthens you, but please, PLEASE take the darn medicine!

[Edika]

Originally Posted by Jakke

I think we should round them all up for false advertising... After all, they are selling a product that can't be measured, quantified, or percieved in any kind of way. How is that different from a con-man selling boxes of air to little old ladies?

-We promise it'll be worth your while...

Well, I promise that if you invest 5000$ in my business, it'll be worth five times as much in 500 years. How do I know that? I know it in my heart, and it says it's true in this book I've written myself. And if you don't believe me and give me the money, I will have punish you, sorry about that, it's all out of my hands, but take comfort in that I love you and all humanity anyway.
Ok, you can make the check out to J-a-k-o-b....

Hahahaha so true! I have thought countless of times at how easy it would be to run a scam like this seeing how gullible are most people. Unfortunately for my pocket and fortunately as a person and my fellow humans I have a conscience and could not live with myself. But really it seems almost effortless to trick people to give you money!

[Nimgoble]

Originally Posted by Vostre Roy

I do believe that it takes more than pills to cure any disease, you somehow have to believe that you'll be cured, it can either be a divine intervention or strong believing about your body's capacity to heal. Owever, it helps, but not as much as prescriptions drugs, especially in HIV or other really deadly deceases.

While I'm not denying the effectiveness of holistic treatments, I think it's kind of a stretch to say that it takes more than pills to cure any disease. If I have a minor bacterial infection of some sort, am given an antibiotic and am otherwise healthy, no matter how much I'm convinced I'm not going to get better, that medicine is still going to do its job.

Originally Posted by Edika

People or churches can claim whatever they want and I disagree even joking about freedom of speech. At these day and age we have all available information do make a decision. That of course requires good judgement and a critical mind. If these people believe that prayer will cure them and not medication for whatever reasons (despair, faith, outright stupidity) then it is their choice. They will be missed by their loved ones but not by me!

This.

Now concerning the church itself there could be a legal case of exploitation of religious beliefs since there is no scientific proof that prayer cures HIV. This is false advertizing and endangerment of human lives. If church wants to provide moral support for these people ok but leave science to scientist and medical issues to MD's.

The thing is, they aren't claiming there is any scientific proof, so it isn't false advertising. Is it dangerous to listen to this advice? Sure is! But, as you said above, people should KNOW this already. The information is out there. It's time for people to stop believing whatever is spoon-fed to them and do some research. If they still choose to listen, then the consequences are on their heads. The churches aren't forcing anyone to refrain from seeking medical attention.

[Fred the Shred]

Originally Posted by Nimgoble

The thing is, they aren't claiming there is any scientific proof, so it isn't false advertising. Is it dangerous to listen to this advice? Sure is! But, as you said above, people should KNOW this already. The information is out there. It's time for people to stop believing whatever is spoon-fed to them and do some research. If they still choose to listen, then the consequences are on their heads. The churches aren't forcing anyone to refrain from seeking medical attention.

"People should know" is an assumption. Assumption is, by proven experience, the mother of all ....ups. As such, assuming that people will possess the knowledge to take said advice with a grain of salt and distinguish religious faith from scientific facts, thus engaging in both prayer AND the medical treatment is not going to end well - freedom of speech is fine and dandy, yet this is clearly misinformation, which has the added bonus of said church being able to allege that the HIV infected dude died because "his faith faltered, God bless his soul" or "his prayers didn't have enough devotion to them". Slippery slope, that one.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by Waelstrum

Basically, I agree. The great thing about freedom of speech is that when you don't like what someone is saying, you can use your own speech to counter it. I do, however, think that distributing potentially fatally bad medical advice should have legal ramifications. If a doctor knowingly prescribes the wrong medicine then it's murder, but if a church does it's faith.

Words can be dangerous. They can be a poison that corrupts people and I think that needs to be addressed. There are libel/slander laws to punish someone for saying something about you that has no proof, and there should be laws against making potentially damaging statements like this. Freedom of speech shouldn't be abused.

[Nimgoble]

Originally Posted by Fred the Shred

"People should know" is an assumption. Assumption is, by proven experience, the mother of all ....ups.

I think, in the world we live in today, with us possessing the means to come by this information with little effort, it's a fair assumption to make.

As such, assuming that people will possess the knowledge to take said advice with a grain of salt and distinguish religious faith from scientific facts, thus engaging in both prayer AND the medical treatment is not going to end well

To be completely honest, I'm only worried about those of us smart enough to know to take that stuff with a grain of salt. Anyone who is told that "You don't have to take medicine for your ailments because god will cure them for you if you just believe." and doesn't immediately ask: "...what medicine?" is not someone I lament losing. I think that those who listen without questioning become a victim of natural selection. And I don't have a problem with that.

Then again, I'm looking making some assumptions. Allow me to point out some potential flaws/discrepancies in my own argument:

-I'm making the assumption that said victims aren't children, who are just listening to their idiotic, but trusted, parents.

-I'm making the assumption that this isn't happening in a third world country, where (current) information is hard to come by.

I, honestly, don't know what to do about these cases, or if there is any cause to do anything. For the former, if the children were to survive, they'd probably grow up to be indoctrinated clones of their parents. Not too appealing. For the latter, I don't live in a third-world country. What happens in them is really none of my concern. I'm worried about me and mine.

- freedom of speech is fine and dandy, yet this is clearly misinformation, which has the added bonus of said church being able to allege that the HIV infected dude died because "his faith faltered, God bless his soul" or "his prayers didn't have enough devotion to them". Slippery slope, that one.

Devil's advocate here: This does not qualify as misinformation because we can't, in fact, prove that they are wrong.

...Because we can't find their god. Furthermore, we're expected to NOT look because, when we do fail to find said god after searching, the questions we ask are an insult to their faith, which is to be respected, for some reason.

It comes down to the issue of misinformation and the spreading thereof. What qualifies as misinformation? What do we do about this practice? Do we allow it with certain stipulations? For example, do we allow it unless it's harmful? If so, what's harmful? Let's say this group decided to switch tactics and say: "You don't need medication, period. If you do use it, you're going to Hell." Who is to say dying here on Earth is more harmful than burning in Hell for eternity? If we decide that, because there is no basis for that claim, it is harmful, then what do we do about religion, period? Religions, themselves, make a bunch of supernatural and unfounded claims. Is misinformation not a bad thing, period? Do we censor religions? Ban them?

[Edika]

[QUOTE/ For the latter, I don't live in a third-world country. What happens in them is really none of my concern. I'm worried about me and mine. /QUOTE]

Only statement I don't agree with the above post. It's a discussion for another thread so I will not comment further not to derail the thread but for the rest I agree with you.

[Nimgoble]

Originally Posted by Edika

[QUOTE/ For the latter, I don't live in a third-world country. What happens in them is really none of my concern. I'm worried about me and mine. /QUOTE]

Only statement I don't agree with the above post. It's a discussion for another thread so I will not comment further not to derail the thread but for the rest I agree with you.

I understand and I figured a vast majority WOULD disagree with that. But, I feel that understanding a person's priorities is beneficial when having a discussion with them.