Mother bear kills cub and then itself

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

How about you act like an adult and explain how the things he pointed out aren't exactly like what's being done to the bears instead of nonsense personal attacks and stereotypes.

Because, I'm entitled to my opinion.

If you don't like my opinion, please, leave me negative anonymous rep. It makes me laugh.

[BigPhi84]

Aww, NatG and Nimgoble.

From here on out, you guys can call me "Dr. Phi-L."

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

Because, I'm entitled to my opinion.

If you don't like my opinion, please, leave me negative anonymous rep. It makes me laugh.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you're actually trying to contribute anything, it's best to actually use logic and have any idea of how refuting someone is supposed to work, as opposed to throwing out stereotypes and insulting people to try and prove your point.

, sincerely.

[highlordmugfug]

I was watching Brad Neely videos and I thought it was funny what he brings up about chickens and lobsters since this thread just happened.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Aww, NatG and Nimgoble.

Drak, look what you did to my friends, you big goofy gay. Next we'll be talking about pelvis parties.






No, I don't know what that means either.

[sol niger 333]

Unfortunately the only people who can be legitimately outraged without a cloud of hypocrisy on this issue are vegans. We are all so incredibly ignorant of the atrocities that occur in the meat and dairy industry DAILY.

Calves taken from their screaming mothers, pigs tortured and kept in crush cages their entire life, torture mutilation and evil all day every day behind closed doors.

I eat free range chicken and a bit of fish occasionally but if you're eating bacon or battery eggs you should be quite comfortable reading the above article about bear bile farms.

On a side note, the chinese and many other asian races do seem to have their own brand of evil and callousness towards the defenseless.


.... em

[DrakkarTyrannis]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

Drak, look what you did to my friends, you big goofy gay. Next we'll be talking about pelvis parties.






No, I don't know what that means either.

I don't know what it means...but I want 2 tickets to it

[Dan]

I fully came here by page 3 (i have the long page view) wanting to throw some smackdown but to be honest i got to page 4 and calmed a little! Damn heated debates

Adam and the rest of you guys who are vegetarians. I'm going to be totally honest with you. Meat is ....ing delicious. I love the taste, i source a large portion of my meat produce from an abattoir near where i live and i know its slaughter procedures and where the meat comes from, so i know to an extent i am doing something about what i eat. If i had to kill an animal to eat it i would, at the end of the day its about survival. Where a lot of meat eaters wouldnt do that, i would, and i think that makes me a little different.

YES i do apreciate we live in a society where we can chemically enhance food to give us what we need or import foods so we have the right amounts of nutrients and protein, but meat has always been there for us to do that. It's just with the vast increate in world populous that these places where animals are force fed and caged have been set up.

Think of it this way: Way back when we would have hunters to go out and find food. We just smartened up to the fact we could breed food and eat it on a mass scale. The whole problem with talking about 'animal humanities' is that they arn't human. Sure they feel just as much as any of us but they will never be able to testify to the horrors they have to endure, so people can get away with it. I don't approve, but it wont change any time soon.

On that note, have some Disney

[McKay]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

Why is it ok to kill an animal for food? A bear doesn't have self awareness or the capacity for morality. Humans do. We have the ability to conquer our own flesh... A bear just follows their nature because they don't make moral decisions like humans do. We absolutely do not need to eat flesh, and it's therefore not a natural neccessity. Calling it "right" just because it's commonplace is stupid. Just because it's been done for a long time doesn't mean it's ok or that it's in our nature... It just means that we've chosen to do so for a long time, since it's in our nature to choose. Your logic is completely flawed.

How can you argue that a bear is not self aware if it can kill itself and it's child to spare them both a life of torture?

Surely this also constitutes a basic moral understanding? Obviously it bears don't have the advantage of language to augment their basic instincts but animals usually have an obvious moral compass. Pack animal? They have pack morals. Colony animal? Colony morals.

Our morals are just those of the mute walking apes we descend from. They just happen to be more developed.

[McKay]

Also here is the solution to the debate: In vitro meat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vat grown meat.

[rjnix_0329]

I was afraid that this was going to turn into a "culture" debate. If this WAS part of their culture, seriously, .... that culture. But it isn't, it's just certain people within that culture, just like the assholes who organize dog fights in the states. I don't care what values these "farmers" were brought up with, as the world globalizes, so do priorities and values, and they will quickly need to catch up with the rest of the world, or be eliminated from our global culture. This insanity has no place in the modern world.

[daemon barbeque]

Finding meat delicious is the only argument that can´t be fought against, since it´s a matter of taste.
Everything else you said is more or less not right.
If you look at your body, teeth, intestines, lipid and sugar metabolism, you are clearly not optimized to eat meat, but plants.

I am all ears for an open discussion for it, since i can literally CRUSH all of the pro meat arguments with all scientific facts, except one ..."but it tastes goood"

The meat production causes the %40 of the earths pollution. You read it right. Not just %40 of air pollution, a lot of drink water pollution too.

If you would know how many liters of water, how much hay and cereals you need to get 1 single Kg of meat, you would see the reason why we still have hunger and poverty on earth.

Animals are not humans that´s right. But look at the wild nature. No Lion eats only 10% of what comes out of the prey and throws the rest in the trash bin. Only USA throws more meat to the garbage that the entire afrika would be fed with. In Germany, the wasted meat is enough to feed Greece. The meat waste is so high, people dry it and feed back to the cows as powder (That brings us to mad cow disease)

It is not right, it is not logical, it is not sustainable in so many aspects, I think either eating meat makes people blind or dumb! Choose your side

[Demiurge]

I'm sure that the bears involved would be delighted that their plight is being hijacked for another ....ing "ethics of meat" debate. Opportunism to the point of twisting stories around to make glib proclamations relative to one's own personal agenda is the ultimate skill that humans have over animals.

Here's a thought: meat-eating is never going to stop- so good for the carnivores as there will be bacon for all, and good for the vegetarians as they will not be robbed of an artificial means of feeling morally superior. What can be stopped is needless shit like poking holes in animals to farm their bile in the name of unscientific superstition. Additionally, equivocating meat-eating with all instances of animal cruelty (as some want to do here) will just create a idealogical morass that will all but guarantee that none of it will stop.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

It is not right, it is not logical, it is not sustainable in so many aspects, I think either eating meat makes people blind or dumb! Choose your side

I choose the side of delicious steak. Delicious, tender, rare steak




Each to their own dude, there are so many problems wrong with this world and food may be a large part of it. My family keeps chickens and we grow our own vegetables, we're pretty self sufficiant. I'd raise animals for food if i could. But yes you're right, maybe we 'arn't' supposed to eat meat, but i sure as hell love eating it, and no-one is going to stope me otherwise.

[Fred the Shred]

Do I eat meat? Yes. In spite of my life as musician, I actually studied veterinary medicine (there's some Fred trivia for you ), and I did some farm / slaughterhouse accompaniment and inspection.

There are things that are indeed humane and effective, and others that are a bitch and should be more heavily regulated. The killing itself is quite humane - there is instant severing of the spinal cord / electric shock overloading the nervous system and animals such as cows and the like are then killed via massive bleeding and pass out almost instantly after the cut due to the abrupt oxygen supply cut to the brain (which also prevents the agonic asphyxia and the like).

Meat production farms here are also under strict legislation regarding higiene and quarters size, although I dare say the inspection process is often not enough to make sure the "higiene" part is accomplished, yet we try. Transportation is also subjected to these same regulations, which are transversal to the EU, or at least were at the time. Now comes the bad part - I find that leaving animals stressed and confined to spaces where they can sometimes see the others being slaughtered is as humane as making convicts watch executions while on death row, and all it takes is a bloody wall or door most of the time. Unfortunately, unless there is clear legislation stating this, owners won't give a .... and the animals go from 30 seconds of WTF?! -> faint to minutes of horror watching the others being taken from their cages to die.

In short, there are indeed ethical problems regarding meat consumption even when legislation regarding the humane treatment of animals that will end up in your food chain, and I'm most sympathetic regarding this subject.

Food consumption, however, is not comparable to absolutely horrible stories such as this, or the fowls that get immobilized and forcefed to make foie gras and the like - these are lives comprising only suffering, for either placebo effects or a rare delicacy (protip - a non-forcefed fowl with a hypercaloric diet easily acquires a fat liver, or steatosis, this is just saving money and speeding up the process). In spite of being a cultural thing, it's unacceptable to force an animal to spend 100% of its lifetime under the most unspeakable torture.

[Fred the Shred]

-- Damn you, double post! --

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

It is not right, it is not logical, it is not sustainable in so many aspects, I think either eating meat makes people blind or dumb! Choose your side

I lost most of my respect for your argument when you made this comment. This is why I got so annoyed at this thread.

[Hemi-Powered Drone]

This is why I avoid arguments about the ethics of eating meat, they're all the same and they never change everything. Can't we all learn to shut up, with meat eaters learning to accept the vegetarian's life choices and vegetarians stop acting like such elitist?

Let me make it clear, like many people, I eat meat, but I abhor many of the practices, such as CAFOs, growth hormones, and force feeding. There are, though, humane ways of getting meat, and the old mainstay of hunting the meat on your own and using everything.

I would have more to say, but it would quickly turn to government bashing.

[vampiregenocide]

My stepmother is a vegetarian, so I have a great respect of the lifestyle. I simply choose not to follow it myself, and I would appreciate it if other people wouldn't insult me for that choice. By all means educate me as to the reasoning behind your lifestyle choice, but don't disrespect people.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you're actually trying to contribute anything, it's best to actually use logic and have any idea of how refuting someone is supposed to work, as opposed to throwing out stereotypes and insulting people to try and prove your point.

, sincerely.

To be honest, if you couldn't figure out it was a joke from "Get out of here, PETA", then that's on you.

I Despise elitist vegans and vegetarians who look down their noses at everyone else because *they don't eat meat* except fish, because fish is okay. Especially those that come in here when we're all pretty unabashedly in horror of what happened. Only then to be told that we have no say in animal rights because we eat them? Sorry but .... that guy. Having a differing opinion is one thing. To tell others they're not allowed from having their opinion because of their dietary ways is ....ing fascist.

I'm not a rural old world Chinese sick, I don't require bear bile for anything, so I'm allowed to say whatever the .... I want on the subject matter. Crush cages are wrong, what they do is an inhumane practices. BUT, because they are in China, or where ever else this is happening, it probably won't be stopped unless things drastically change in those countries. China is such an old world think tank, that that change is decades away from happening.

For the people doing it, they're not doing it because they want to torture the animal, they're doing it because it's their culture, and their business to sell the bile. FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE what they're doing isn't wrong, it's what they've been raised to understand, and accept.

There will come a time that a more progressive thinking person comes through and stops these kinds of operations. As the article said, this is a dying (no pun intended) practice as other places have started using synthetics or other herbs.

also: Kiss my ass.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Demiurge

I'm sure that the bears involved would be delighted that their plight is being hijacked for another ....ing "ethics of meat" debate. Opportunism to the point of twisting stories around to make glib proclamations relative to one's own personal agenda is the ultimate skill that humans have over animals.

Here's a thought: meat-eating is never going to stop- so good for the carnivores as there will be bacon for all, and good for the vegetarians as they will not be robbed of an artificial means of feeling morally superior. What can be stopped is needless shit like poking holes in animals to farm their bile in the name of unscientific superstition. Additionally, equivocating meat-eating with all instances of animal cruelty (as some want to do here) will just create a idealogical morass that will all but guarantee that none of it will stop.

Yeah, actually, the conversation just turned in that direction in a pretty natural way. I'm not even a vegetarian, so it has nothing to do with any of the horseshit stupidity that you just claimed was driving the underdog arguments here. The vegan philosophies were brought into this debate because it has everything to do with the ethical treatment of animals. Just because you have a real problem with "vegetarian superiority complexes" (ooga booga!) doesn't mean this conversation should exclude such an angle.

Anyway, for the record, I eat fish and poultry, which means I'm not a vegetarian, so my arguments are hypocritical to an extent. That's not the point though. I never said I wasn't amoral in some ways. The point is that we can't prove whether or not an animal suffers in the same way that we do, but our empathy leads us to believe that their pain is real.. When you consider that along with the fact that we can survive perfectly well (and in fact, be much better off) on a vegan diet, it becomes pointless to kill animals for food or any other product. That's really the bottom line. You might think meat is delicious, but a coke addict thinks coke is great too. It's just not a justification. Its fact that we don't need it, so it's irresponsible to have it. It has nothing to do with elitism, it's just simple logic, so don't use that cop out.

[daemon barbeque]

I am not an elitist at all. I clearly put an argument stating that the meat industry does the same horrible things, and I can prove that. Come with an argument against it, so we can discuss.
I also argue that eating meat as we do today is unsustainable, uneconomic and wrong to for your own health. If you have any argument against it I am all ears.

I am not an elitist. Meat or meat products are much more expensive than a vegetarian meal. I am also a Vet and know all the insight and tricks. The horror is there and nobody can deny it. Animals suffer badly in transport or waiting rooms even the farmer was very good and they had a great environment.


I am not arguing against your life style, I just show you how the planet get's ....ed by meat industry and you guys are a part of that.

Come with some arguments instead of insults, cop-outs or whatever.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

To be honest, if you couldn't figure out it was a joke from "Get out of here, PETA", then that's on you.

I Despise elitist vegans and vegetarians who look down their noses at everyone else because *they don't eat meat* except fish, because fish is okay. Especially those that come in here when we're all pretty unabashedly in horror of what happened. Only then to be told that we have no say in animal rights because we eat them? Sorry but .... that guy. Having a differing opinion is one thing. To tell others they're not allowed from having their opinion because of their dietary ways is ....ing fascist.

I'm not a rural old world Chinese sick, I don't require bear bile for anything, so I'm allowed to say whatever the .... I want on the subject matter.

Ok, and for the last time, the reason that point was made is because you do NOT need to eat meat to survive, therefore, the irresponsibility in doing so negates the sincerity of your concern for animal rights. I'm guilty, you're guilty, most of us are. So I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, I'm posing a position of logic.

[daemon barbeque]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

To be honest, if you couldn't figure out it was a joke from "Get out of here, PETA", then that's on you.

I Despise elitist vegans and vegetarians who look down their noses at everyone else because *they don't eat meat* except fish, because fish is okay. Especially those that come in here when we're all pretty unabashedly in horror of what happened. Only then to be told that we have no say in animal rights because we eat them? Sorry but .... that guy. Having a differing opinion is one thing. To tell others they're not allowed from having their opinion because of their dietary ways is ....ing fascist.

I'm not a rural old world Chinese sick, I don't require bear bile for anything, so I'm allowed to say whatever the .... I want on the subject matter. Crush cages are wrong, what they do is an inhumane practices. BUT, because they are in China, or where ever else this is happening, it probably won't be stopped unless things drastically change in those countries. China is such an old world think tank, that that change is decades away from happening.

For the people doing it, they're not doing it because they want to torture the animal, they're doing it because it's their culture, and their business to sell the bile. FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE what they're doing isn't wrong, it's what they've been raised to understand, and accept.

There will come a time that a more progressive thinking person comes through and stops these kinds of operations. As the article said, this is a dying (no pun intended) practice as other places have started using synthetics or other herbs.

also: Kiss my ass.

You cannot .... me dude, you can't even call me "that guy". Get some manners.
There is no perspective abaout right or wrong. Your way is wrong and that is well supported by facts and numbers. If you have anything to add as an argument or anything intelligent to this thread do it. If not, stop insulting or being an ass. Insulting Vegetarians and vegans hardly makes any of your rants acceptable. It's like Christians rants about Atheist elitism when we discuss about priest rapes.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

Ok, and for the last time, the reason that point was made is because you do NOT need to eat meat to survive, therefore, the irresponsibility in doing so negates the sincerity of your concern for animal rights. I'm guilty, you're guilty, most of us are. So I'm not looking down my nose at anyone, I'm posing a position of logic.

It has been a staple of the human diet for as long as we have had tools. There is a reason why early human tribes were described as "HUNTERS AND GATHERERS". Even early man understood what apparently, you ....ing don't. For a healthy and balanced diet, meats and vegetables are the best way.

If some poor ....er is only going to eat meat he's going to ....ing die of a coronary. And if some dick vegan is only going to eat veggies he's going to be devoid of essential proteins, unless they love living off of a strict vitamin regiment.

As a meat eater, I can feel sorry for an animal that's left in a ....ing crush cage. It doesn't matter. Human emotion transcends diet.

Cows slaughtered to feed communities and counties =! A bear left in a ....ing cage all it's life.

COMPASSION does not see dietary lines.