Mother bear kills cub and then itself

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

Just because I eat meat doesn't mean I can't speak up for the rights of animals.

"Just because I smoke cigarettes doesn't mean I can't speak up about lung disease."

I'm not trying to pick on you, bro, but these are both examples of hypocrisy. Sure, you can speak up, but your efforts don't matter as much. Most of us are guilty here.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

"Just because I smoke cigarettes doesn't mean I can't speak up about lung disease."

I'm not trying to pick on you, bro, but these are both examples of hypocrisy. Sure, you can speak up, but your efforts don't matter as much. Most of us are guilty here.

I don't think that holds much weight to be honest.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

I don't think that holds much weight to be honest.

That doesn't mean it doesn't. If somebody were actively fighting the cigarette companies, but smoking cigarettes all the while, not many people would give a .... about what that person had to say. If somebody were seeing a doctor for frequent heart problems, but continually refused to eat right, not many people are going to be sympathetic toward them. If somebody is speaking up about animals rights, but condoning their slaughter, let alone the unethical treatment of them, their opinion doesn't really matter to anybody but their self.

[daemon barbeque]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

but comparing one bad thing to another and saying 'oh well other people do bad stuff too' doesn't make it any less of a bad thing.

It doesn't make it a less of a bad thing, but it clearly shows the double standard. When other cultures do something bad, it is far more " easy" to pick on it. I am against all livestock farming, especially big scale farms.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

All of you who eat chicken, eggs and pork products should STFU! You all do it to chickens and pigs on daily basis.
Crush Cages? Check!
Inhuman Injections, overfeeding, sleep deprivation? Check!

It happens to come interesting and disgusting if somebody in China does it to an uncommon animal we tend to repsect more than pigs and poultry, but we do it in the same way.
We transport animals to the slaughterhouse where %10 die or heavylie hurt themselfs on transport.
Talk about Cruelty!

Get out of here, PETA.

Instead of throwing eggs and blood on people, why dont you go abroad and try and do "good" in other areas, like China?

Oh yea, because if they even let you in, they'd beat the hell out of you for even starting up that shit.

Go eat a carrot, and calm down.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

That doesn't mean it doesn't. If somebody were actively fighting the cigarette companies, but smoking cigarettes all the while, not many people would give a .... about what that person had to say. If somebody were seeing a doctor for frequent heart problems, but continually refused to eat right, not many people are going to be sympathetic toward them. If somebody is speaking up about animals rights, but condoning their slaughter, let alone the unethical treatment of them, their opinion doesn't really matter to anybody but their self.

I had a long post written out to respond to this, but honestly I don't see how it would've aided things. You have your opinion and that's fine, I just think it is completely wrong and the whole smoking thing doesn't really fit. But I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

It doesn't make it a less of a bad thing, but it clearly shows the double standard. When other cultures do something bad, it is far more " easy" to pick on it. I am against all livestock farming, especially big scale farms.

Like I said, I'll rage on any example of animal cruelty I see, be in next door or half way across the world. I won't get started on the livestock farming bit haha.

[AxeHappy]

Most Vets are know are to smart to be a part of PETA which is a really ....ed up organisation.



Do people really not see a difference between:

A) Slaughter (I find the concept of "Humane" slaughter...interesting) of animals for Food

And

B) Keeping an animal alive in constant pain, with holes in it's body, to harvest parts of them for the placebo effect?


Really? No difference. That's just ....ing ridiculous. Food has a measurable effect. Bear Bile does not.

Killing an animal for food is just the way the world works. Maybe the way we do it isn't the best (don't get me started on those mass farms in the US...) but there is a clear, easy to see benefit from it.

There is no reason for what the Chinese are doing to the bear. None. It serves no effect but to torture the bear.

To equate the two as one and the same is ....ing ridiculous.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

Get out of here, PETA.

Instead of throwing eggs and blood on people, why dont you go abroad and try and do "good" in other areas, like China?

Oh yea, because if they even let you in, they'd beat the hell out of you for even starting up that shit.

Go eat a carrot, and calm down.

How about you act like an adult and explain how the things he pointed out aren't exactly like what's being done to the bears instead of nonsense personal attacks and stereotypes.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by AxeHappy

Most Vets are know are to smart to be a part of PETA which is a really ....ed up organisation.



Do people really not see a difference between:

A) Slaughter (I find the concept of "Humane" slaughter...interesting) of animals for Food

And

B) Keeping an animal alive in constant pain, with holes in it's body, to harvest parts of them for the placebo effect?


Really? No difference. That's just ....ing ridiculous. Food has a measurable effect. Bear Bile does not.

Killing an animal for food is just the way the world works. Maybe the way we do it isn't the best (don't get me started on those mass farms in the US...) but there is a clear, easy to see benefit from it.

There is no reason for what the Chinese are doing to the bear. None. It serves no effect but to torture the bear.

To equate the two as one and the same is ....ing ridiculous.

This.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by AxeHappy

Most Vets are know are to smart to be a part of PETA which is a really ....ed up organisation.



Do people really not see a difference between:

A) Slaughter (I find the concept of "Humane" slaughter...interesting) of animals for Food

And

B) Keeping an animal alive in constant pain, with holes in it's body, to harvest parts of them for the placebo effect?


Really? No difference. That's just ....ing ridiculous. Food has a measurable effect. Bear Bile does not.

Killing an animal for food is just the way the world works. Maybe the way we do it isn't the best (don't get me started on those mass farms in the US...) but there is a clear, easy to see benefit from it.

There is no reason for what the Chinese are doing to the bear. None. It serves no effect but to torture the bear.

To equate the two as one and the same is ....ing ridiculous.

The thing is, are the animals in both situations being harmed (and in some cases tortured absolutely horribly): yes.

Is it possible to live without bear bile: yes.

Is it possible to live without eating meat/eggs/milk: yes.

And don't bring up third world countries, or hyper poverty or anything like that because it's not the point and we could get 30x as much plant based food for meat to them if we so pleased. Everyone could easily live without both bear bile and meat, and yet people only notice the difference because being against bear bile won't affect them at all because they don't use it, whereas most people eat meat/dairy/eggs so there's a reason for them to defend it. It's been shown time and time again that we can live without both of them, yet they're still going on, therefore, they are very closely related.

[vampiregenocide]

Bears can survive on fruit and grass, therefore bears in zoos shouldn't be fed meat as they can live without it.

[Zorkuus]

Originally Posted by AxeHappy

Most Vets are know are to smart to be a part of PETA which is a really ....ed up organisation.



Do people really not see a difference between:

A) Slaughter (I find the concept of "Humane" slaughter...interesting) of animals for Food

And

B) Keeping an animal alive in constant pain, with holes in it's body, to harvest parts of them for the placebo effect?


Really? No difference. That's just ....ing ridiculous. Food has a measurable effect. Bear Bile does not.

Killing an animal for food is just the way the world works. Maybe the way we do it isn't the best (don't get me started on those mass farms in the US...) but there is a clear, easy to see benefit from it.

There is no reason for what the Chinese are doing to the bear. None. It serves no effect but to torture the bear.

To equate the two as one and the same is ....ing ridiculous.

I was about to write something but this sums it up nicely.

Killing animals for food has a practical use and is a necessary evil. Torturing animals for something which has no practical use and is not necessary is just cruel.

I wonder what went through in those peoples minds when the bear killed herself and the cub. Did they even stop to think why she did such a thing?

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

Bears can survive on fruit and grass, therefore bears in zoos shouldn't be fed meat as they can live without it.

Bears don't have industries that slaughter and torture millions of other animals everyday, your analogy is irrelevant and has nothing to do with my point. Explain how they aren't the same.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by highlordmugfug

Bears don't have industries that slaughter and torture millions of other animals everyday, your analogy is irrelevant and has nothing to do with my point. Explain how they aren't the same.

It has everything to do with you point. I don't back torturing animals either. Slaughtering animals should only be done in a humane way, and their living conditions should be to a high standard.

The point brought up in this thread is that if you eat meat then your opinion on animal welfare doesn't matter as much, because animals are dying for your consumption. Bears kill other animals to feed as well, yet they don't need to. They could survive on fruit and grass if the proper amounts were given. It's their nature. Eating meat is human nature too, we have just made a conscious decision over time to try alternate diets. Slaughtering an animal to eat isn't wrong, it depends on the context. If that animal was mistreated all it's life, abused and then slaughtered in a painful and horrific way, then that would be unnecessary and I would speak against that as much as this bear matter. However, if an animal is slaughtered in a quick and painless way, the living conditions are fine and it is a safe sustainable source etc, then there is nothing wrong with it. All it comes down to is whether you choose to eat meat or not.

[Nimgoble]

Originally Posted by NatG

Having a 'different culture' does not justify torturing animals to produce unnecessary medicines. Torturing innocent animals is wrong on all bases and the people behind it are evil. No two ways about it. It is not about the culture, it is about the action.

There's a lot of this sentiment in this thread and it's kind of scary. Not because I disagree that the torturing of animals is wrong. I don't. However, I do recognize the fact that our morals are subjective. There are, in fact, "two ways" about it. If the Chinese deem this to moral, then it is, in their opinion. We can pressure them to adopt our morality, which I would be all for. But don't for one second think your morality is absolutely correct and that you're not just the biggest bully on the playground.

[vampiregenocide]

When you're driving animals to commit suicide and you don't see it as wrong, you're ....ed.

[McKay]

Ever heard of Batul?

Boiled alive duck chicks. Yum. Common street snack in SE Asia.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by McKay

Ever heard of Batul?

Boiled alive duck chicks. Yum. Common street snack in SE Asia.

I heard of similar things. Live sushi bothers me also.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore though, it's a subjective matter and people's opinions on this only frustrate me.

[Zorkuus]

Originally Posted by McKay

Ever heard of Batul?

Boiled alive duck chicks. Yum. Common street snack in SE Asia.

Another example of something that is completely unnecessary. If you want to eat duck chicks you can do it perfectly fine by killing them before boiling them, even the taste will not be different.

[Nimgoble]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

When you're driving animals to commit suicide and you don't see it as wrong, you're ....ed.

I agree. It seems that we hold the same opinion.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

It has everything to do with you point. I don't back torturing animals either. Slaughtering animals should only be done in a humane way, and their living conditions should be to a high standard.

The point brought up in this thread is that if you eat meat then your opinion on animal welfare doesn't matter as much, because animals are dying for your consumption. Bears kill other animals to feed as well, yet they don't need to. They could survive on fruit and grass if the proper amounts were given. It's their nature. Eating meat is human nature too, we have just made a conscious decision over time to try alternate diets. Slaughtering an animal to eat isn't wrong, it depends on the context. If that animal was mistreated all it's life, abused and then slaughtered in a painful and horrific way, then that would be unnecessary and I would speak against that as much as this bear matter. However, if an animal is slaughtered in a quick and painless way, the living conditions are fine and it is a safe sustainable source etc, then there is nothing wrong with it. All it comes down to is whether you choose to eat meat or not.

Why is it ok to kill an animal for food? A bear doesn't have self awareness or the capacity for morality. Humans do. We have the ability to conquer our own flesh... A bear just follows their nature because they don't make moral decisions like humans do. We absolutely do not need to eat flesh, and it's therefore not a natural neccessity. Calling it "right" just because it's commonplace is stupid. Just because it's been done for a long time doesn't mean it's ok or that it's in our nature... It just means that we've chosen to do so for a long time, since it's in our nature to choose. Your logic is completely flawed.

[vampiregenocide]

Okay I wasn't going to post here, but seeing as you're being unnecessarily condescending I'm going to.

My logic isn't flawed, it's simply different to yours. Your opinion is your opinion not fact, this is a subjective matter and a little different to the original topic of this thread. Clearly you disagree with me and that's fine, but don't be rude about it. I've only just got back for being banned and I'm not getting banned again for arguing over something so subjective that it is ultimate pointless to get all fired up over.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by vampiregenocide

Okay I wasn't going to post here, but seeing as you're being unnecessarily condescending I'm going to.

My logic isn't flawed, it's simply different to yours. Your opinion is your opinion not fact, this is a subjective matter and a little different to the original topic of this thread. Clearly you disagree with me and that's fine, but don't be rude about it. I've only just got back for being banned and I'm not getting banned again for arguing over something so subjective that it is ultimate pointless to get all fired up over.

I'm not being condescending, man. What I'm saying has nothing to do with opinion - it's solid fact that you do not need to eat meat. Period. It's a solid fact that a human has the capacity to make moral decisions. Period.

[Dvaienat]

Originally Posted by Nimgoble

There's a lot of this sentiment in this thread and it's kind of scary. Not because I disagree that the torturing of animals is wrong. I don't. However, I do recognize the fact that our morals are subjective. There are, in fact, "two ways" about it. If the Chinese deem this to moral, then it is, in their opinion. We can pressure them to adopt our morality, which I would be all for. But don't for one second think your morality is absolutely correct and that you're not just the biggest bully on the playground.

Put yourself in the position of the animals being tortured. Then you may understand why it is wrong.

Morality is not subjective. Anything which causes unneccesary suffering to humans or animals is wrong.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by NatG

Morality is not subjective. Anything which causes unneccesary suffering to humans or animals is wrong.

Precisely.