Mother bear kills cub and then itself

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by sol niger 333

You are speculating to try and save face. The government required size of a sow crate in New Zealand COMPLETELY prevents the ability to turn around or even lie down properly. I've seen footage of 3 different industrial pig farms and it's hell. The look in their eyes will never leave my mind. We supposedly have higher standards of animal welfare than most countries too, another example of propaganda swaying general public consensus. I'd be willing to bet the dimensions would be even smaller in your country. Like I said I'm not trying to tell you how to live. Just to recognize the hypocrisy.

I don't need to post anything more. I really feel for the vegans having this argument every freaking day

The regulations you have in New Zealand are different than what we have here in the States. It's all about perspective and the area that you live in.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

No, actually, it isn't. What holds us back as a people is killing each other due to petty differences. An argument over what we should and shouldn't eat has no bearing on us as a people.

If that's how you see it then fine. I obviously see it differently.

There were several people telling those of us "meat eaters" that we shouldn't feel bad for the bear. Because we eat meat. That's wrong, and telling people how to feel because of their diet.

I never said that my feelings were more important than fact. I only asked that you show an unbiased article that supported your argument. Though I do feel strongly about my feelings. I'm quite sure you feel the same about yours.

See, You may feel like I have no place in an "intelligent debate", but being that this is the internet, I can go and participate as I please.

When people adopt the philosophy that they hold a certain position and nothing will change it, that's detrimental. That's what creates a lot of fighting.

You absolutely DID say that your feelings were more important than fact. You said that you didn't care about the facts, and that they haven't changed you at all. I'm not saying that you are that way across the board, but in this discussion, you are admittedly so.

Again, posting an article that supports the exclusion of animal products amongst human necessities is the same as posting an article that supports the describing of pumpkins as orange. Its not controversial, subjective bias, it's simple, logical fact that most people know. You brought up my feelings, but my feelings have had nothing to do with my position in this debate. I'm simply defending fact, because that's what debates consist of.

[sol niger 333]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

The regulations you have in New Zealand are different than what we have here in the States. It's all about perspective and the area that you live in.

Yes ours were probably larger it also looks like legislation is in the works to abolish sow crates entirely in New Zealand but I'll believe it when I see it

[sol niger 333]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

When people adopt the philosophy that they hold a certain position and nothing will change it, that's detrimental. That's what creates a lot of fighting.

You absolutely DID say that your feelings were more important than fact. You said that you didn't care about the facts, and that they haven't changed you at all. I'm not saying that you are that way across the board, but in this discussion, you are admittedly so.

Again, posting an article that supports the exclusion of animal products amongst human necessities is the same as posting an article that supports the describing of pumpkins as orange. Its not controversial, subjective bias, it's simple, logical fact that most people know. You brought up my feelings, but my feelings have had nothing to do with my position in this debate. I'm simply defending fact, because that's what debates consist of.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

When people adopt the philosophy that they hold a certain position and nothing will change it, that's detrimental. That's what creates a lot of fighting.

You absolutely DID say that your feelings were more important than fact. You said that you didn't care about the facts, and that they haven't changed you at all. I'm not saying that you are that way across the board, but in this discussion, you are admittedly so.

Again, posting an article that supports the exclusion of animal products amongst human necessities is the same as posting an article that supports the describing of pumpkins as orange. Its not controversial, subjective bias, it's simple, logical fact that most people know. You brought up my feelings, but my feelings have had nothing to do with my position in this debate. I'm simply defending fact, because that's what debates consist of.

But like I said, I don't believe you.

I say we do need meat, and that Vegans and Vegetarians are missing out on vital nutrients, that eating nothing but vegetable can not equally provide.

I like my point of view, it's come from my decisions and actions as an adult. It's how most people are, I am open to any and all opinions, but there's no need to get upset that I don't change who I am because I don't accept your opinions to be helpful to me.

If I found them to be helpful to me, or affect me positively, then maybe you could have had some kind of impact. But you didn't, and my opinion, and stance remain unchanged.

There's no need to get mad, or insulting about it.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

But like I said, I don't believe you.

I say we do need meat, and that Vegans and Vegetarians are missing out on vital nutrients, that eating nothing but vegetable can not equally provide.

I like my point of view, it's come from my decisions and actions as an adult. It's how most people are, I am open to any and all opinions, but there's no need to get upset that I don't change who I am because I don't accept your opinions to be helpful to me.

If I found them to be helpful to me, or affect me positively, then maybe you could have had some kind of impact. But you didn't, and my opinion, and stance remain unchanged.

There's no need to get mad, or insulting about it.

You don't believe me? Well that's funny. If I told you that water puts out fires in large enough quantities, your disbelief doesn't mean I was giving you my opinion.

If I were presenting a controversial idea, I think more people would be speaking up about the necessity of evidence/support to back up my claims. As you've seen here, not many people are even disagreeing with my assertions, let alone requesting additional proof. Sorry bud.

If I tell you that Dinosaur bones were dug up out of the ground, and that's how we have them in our museums, would you ask for an article to support it? It's just goofy. I find it nearly unbelievable that you were brought up into adulthood without learning that there are many ways to be perfectly healthy without the use of animal products.


And to be clear, I've not insulted you or gotten angry in any instance without it having been a joke. You taking offense and being sensitive is the issue, not my being a dick.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

But like I said, I don't believe you.

I say we do need meat, and that Vegans and Vegetarians are missing out on vital nutrients, and eating nothing but vegetable can not equally provide.

I like my point of view, it's come from my decisions and actions as an adult. It's how most people are, I am open to any and all opinions, but there's no need to get upset that I don't change who I am because I don't accept your opinions to be helpful to me.

If I found them to be helpful to me, or affect me positively, then maybe you could have had some kind of impact. But you didn't, and my opinion, and stance remain unchanged.

There's no need to get mad, or insulting about it.

You do realize that if someone only ate vegetables they wouldn't be healthy, but that that isn't all that vegetarians or vegans eat. They eat everything that you do, only no cows, no pigs, no birds, no fish, no milk, and no eggs. Everything else is on the table.

The only thing that's 'difficult' to get is vitamin B12, but there are plenty of vegan and vegetarian sources of that, so you saying that they don't get 'vital nutrients' is based on... nothing.


Also, stop calling them opinions. You're arguing opinions, Adam is presenting facts.

Animal products aren't necessary to survive, the millions of people who've lived without them for long long periods of time are proof of that, and no they didn't all barely survive, and they weren't all weak and withered, or devoid of 'vital nutrients'. That's a fact. You can't argue with it, it's completely proven, undebatable.

Choosing to continue to eat/use animal products is a completely different matter. Do I care if someone eats meat: not in the slightest. Do I care if they support huge agribusinesses that .... up the planet and torture millions of animals while they do it: yes I do. Because the acts of the huge corporations effect me, people eating animals doesn't.




Once again, the reason I first brought up the similarity between the two was just so people would realize that there is a similarity. It's annoying as .... that people act like like I'm trying to make them stop eating meat simply by bringing up facts that they don't like.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

You don't believe me? Well that's funny. If I told you that water puts out fires in large enough quantities, your disbelief doesn't mean I was giving you my opinion.

If I were presenting a controversial idea, I think more people would be speaking up about the necessity of evidence/support to back up my claims. As you've seen here, not many people are even disagreeing with my assertions, let alone requesting additional proof. Sorry bud.

If I tell you that Dinosaur bones were dug up out of the ground, and that's how we have them in our museums, would you ask for an article to support it? It's just goofy. I find it nearly unbelievable that you were brought up into adulthood without learning that there are many ways to be perfectly healthy without the use of animal products.


And to be clear, I've not insulted you or gotten angry in any instance without it having been a joke. You taking offense and being sensitive is the issue, not my being a dick.

You have, actually, insulted me.

You have said on multiple counts that I'm not intelligent. And have called me barbaric. I'm telling you how I have read your argument, and that I found it to be rude and insulting.

See, I know how fires are put out, because I've seen them be put out, and I've had to put them out.

As a child, on a trip to the museum, I asked my teacher how the fossils got to there.

Others didn't ask because they knew or didn't care. I didn't know, so I asked for a source. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm not about to just go about trusting some random person on the internet about a subject I don't know about. I told you before, that I've never heard that "People can live completely with out meat and be healthy." Quite, the contrary, actually. I've been taught and raised that eating nothing but vegetables isn't the best for you.

When being given a differing opinion on the matter, and one that someone is touting as fact, I was only asking for some proof.

I don't see why you have a problem with it.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

When being given a differing opinion on the matter, and one that someone is touting as fact, I was only asking for some proof.

I don't see why you have a problem with it.

Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness
Robert Cheeke, a vegan body builder.

Donald Watson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Donald Watson, vegan for 60 years, vegetarian for 80.

Donald Watson - Vegan Society Founder
Another source on Watson, in case wikipedia isn't fully factual.

[Sicarius]

I asked several times for unbiased sources :/

being that these are from Vegan funded sites, I can't trust them.

[highlordmugfug]

BLABBERMOUTH.NET - GEEZER BUTLER: Why I'm A Vegan

Geezer Butler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Geezer Butler is a vegan, though I'm not sure for how long, I've seen interviews where he stated that he stopped eating meat as a child.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

I asked several times for unbiased sources :/

being that these are from Vegan funded sites, I can't trust them.

You find me articles about Vegans from sites that have nothing to do with veganism.

Do you think they used voodoo magic to make them live longer?
EDIT: Or did they use voodoo magic to make Robert Cheeke's muscles bigger?

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

You have, actually, insulted me.

You have said on multiple counts that I'm not intelligent. And have called me barbaric. I'm telling you how I have read your argument, and that I found it to be rude and insulting.

See, I know how fires are put out, because I've seen them be put out, and I've had to put them out.

As a child, on a trip to the museum, I asked my teacher how the fossils got to there.

Others didn't ask because they knew or didn't care. I didn't know, so I asked for a source. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm not about to just go about trusting some random person on the internet about a subject I don't know about. I told you before, that I've never heard that "People can live completely with out meat and be healthy." Quite, the contrary, actually. I've been taught and raised that eating nothing but vegetables isn't the best for you.

When being given a differing opinion on the matter, and one that someone is touting as fact, I was only asking for some proof.

I don't see why you have a problem with it.

I'm sorry if you felt insulted. While I'm tempted to just write you off as overly sensitive, I have too big of a heart for that, and am instead offering a genuine apology.

So, let's get this straight.... You've seen a fire put out by water, so you know it works. Should I make a documentary of my life while I eat a vegan diet to prove my points here? How were you satisfied when your teacher simply told you where the dinosaur bones came from? Why not ask for an article? What if I give you an article and the article just seems unbiased, but is actually just subjective information written in a very matter-of-fact sort of way? This is why I suggested that you just do a simple google search. Almost everybody else here knows that animal products aren't necessary for survival, which makes you the oddball out. I haven't posted a link based in that, for the most part. Additionally, I'm on an iPad, not a computer. It's a lot easier for you to look up links with a few clicks than it is for me to copy and paste a few for you to read. Lastly, you said you don't care about this, so I'm lead to believe that you're simply BS'ing and essentially bullying me into posting a link for the sake of playing devil's advocate. To that, I said "eh".

[Adam Of Angels]

Oh, and of course a purely vegetable based diet would be unhealthy. That's not what a vegan diet is. There's more food sources other than meat and vegetables. You can drop that one.

[highlordmugfug]

I've been vegan for 3 years, and I'm having no health issues. I'm perfectly healthy, I'm active, and I've got no deficiencies that I know of.

Or am I biased because I'm vegan.

Voodoo health, ftw.

[Sicarius]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

I'm sorry if you felt insulted. While I'm tempted to just write you off as overly sensitive, I have too big of a heart for that, and am instead offering a genuine apology.

So, let's get this straight.... You've seen a fire put out by water, so you know it works. Should I make a documentary of my life while I eat a vegan diet to prove my points here? How were you satisfied when your teacher simply told you where the dinosaur bones came from? Why not ask for an article? What if I give you an article and the article just seems unbiased, but is actually just subjective information written in a very matter-of-fact sort of way? This is why I suggested that you just do a simple google search. Almost everybody else here knows that animal products aren't necessary for survival, which makes you the oddball out. I haven't posted a link based in that, for the most part. Additionally, I'm on an iPad, not a computer. It's a lot easier for you to look up links with a few clicks than it is for me to copy and paste a few for you to read. Lastly, you said you don't care about this, so I'm lead to believe that you're simply BS'ing and essentially bullying me into posting a link for the sake of playing devil's advocate. To that, I said "eh".

You do what you want to do, man. I won't watch it. Like I said, I have no problem with what you eat, only that you don't tell me how I should feel because of my diet.

What you think is a fact, isn't always a fact for everyone else.

Just look at religion. No, it's not the same thing, but what a religious person thinks is a fact, is for them, but not for me, or people that think along the same lines that I do.

I'm the oddball out here, for sure, but where I live, I'm not.

I lump fruits, vegetables, and grains into one category, so you can drop that one.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

You do what you want to do, man. I won't watch it. Like I said, I have no problem with what you eat, only that you don't tell me how I should feel because of my diet.

What you think is a fact, isn't always a fact for everyone else.

Just look at religion. No, it's not the same thing, but what a religious person thinks is a fact, is for them, but not for me, or people that think along the same lines that I do.

I'm the oddball out here, for sure, but where I live, I'm not.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. @ bolded. If it's "a fact for them, but not for me" then it's an opinion.


" I have no problem with what you eat, only that you don't tell me how I should feel because of my diet."
So... us saying that we can live without animal products is bad, but you saying we can't live and are deficient in nutrients isn't?
And I do realize that Daemonbbq (or whatever the name is) was a bit... 'aggressive' but saying that animal products aren't necessary to stay alive while being proof that they aren't, is much less offensive it seems than calling all vegans and vegetarians nutrient deficient based on... what everyone else where you live thinks apparently.

[Sicarius]

That's my point, your "facts" are opinions to me. That's what they'll stay.


I never said deficient, just that you weren't getting an equal amount.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

You do what you want to do, man. I won't watch it. Like I said, I have no problem with what you eat, only that you don't tell me how I should feel because of my diet.

What you think is a fact, isn't always a fact for everyone else.

Just look at religion. No, it's not the same thing, but what a religious person thinks is a fact, is for them, but not for me, or people that think along the same lines that I do.

I'm the oddball out here, for sure, but where I live, I'm not.

I lump fruits, vegetables, and grains into one category, so you can drop that one.

Ummm... Do you know what a fact is?

.....and to give you an example of that word used in a sentence: "It is a fact that fruit, vegetables and grains are different things."

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Sicarius

That's my point, your "facts" are opinions to me. That's what they'll stay.


I never said deficient, just that you weren't getting an equal amount.

The FACT that Donald Watson ate a vegetarian diet for ~80 years and a vegan one for ~60 is NOT an opinion.

The FACT that Robert Cheeke is a vegan bodybuilder and is muscular as hell is NOT an opinion.

The FACT that I've had no problems due to my vegan diet of 3 years is NOT an opinion.

Originally Posted by Sicarius

I say we do need meat, and that Vegans and Vegetarians are missing out on vital nutrients, that eating nothing but vegetable can not equally provide.

Eh, semantics. Missing out on nutrients = nutrient deficiency.

[Sicarius]

I'm well aware of what the food pyramid consists of.

I'm also aware that the vegan/vegetarian diet is grains, vegetables, and fruits.

hence why I lumped them together.

You guys aren't gonna give up, and neither am I. So we're at a deadlock.

[Adam Of Angels]

Do you know what a fact is?

[Sicarius]

Yes, but your opinion on the matter is an astounding, "No".

[Adam Of Angels]

Explain to me what a fact is.

[highlordmugfug]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

Do you know what a fact is?

No, no he does not.


It's only a deadlock because you refuse to accept any proof contrary to what you already believe. You refuse to even acknowledge that it's possible to live without meat, having been given just in this thread 4 examples of people doing so.

It's called willful ignorance, or the True Believer syndrome, look it up.