Infanticide in Pakistan

[Origin]

.... ....ing religion. Just disgusting.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

Every time something happens in an Islamic country, or something bad done by a Muslim, we here how Islam is bad and ....ed up.
A guy kills 20 people in school, and happens to be Christian, we never hear about how bad Christianity is!

If this wouldn't be the case, some of us wouldn't have to respond to clear the facts!

Wait what? I know you're not new here, but if you've never noticed how almost *any* thread about *any* faith, turns into some form of Christian/Catholic bashing, I recommend you do a search and check out some older threads.

We *rarely* talk about how ....ed Islam is, and this is one instance where some Muslims are clearly out of their ....ing trees if they think stoning a *baby* to death is "right". And you're not clearing up any facts, you're stating your opinion. That you don't like Christianity or Judaism is obvious. And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I don't particularly care for any organized religion, but this thread is about some Muslims' behavior, not some Christians'.

In other words, I think you've got it completely backwards. Just search out any threads on here and I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.

[vampiregenocide]

Originally Posted by daemon barbeque

Every time something happens in an Islamic country, or something bad done by a Muslim, we here how Islam is bad and ....ed up.
A guy kills 20 people in school, and happens to be Christian, we never hear about how bad Christianity is!

I disagree with that, Christianity despite toning down nowadays (bar a few groups like the WBC) still recieves a lot of stick. I've seen a fair few threads on here bashing extremist Christians, just as I have seen those about Muslims. The fact is, that nowadays, there is a higher number of extremist Muslims than there are extremist Christians, so people are obviously going to focus on one more than the other. That, and it depends whether religion actually plays a role in the crime (Its different to kill a man in the name of God than to kill a man and happen to believe in God anyway).

[Scar Symmetry]

Agreed, Christianity gets a lot of shit on this forum. It's no big surprise when metal and atheism often go hand in hand, but we have some Christian posters here that I really value.

[vampiregenocide]

Yeah I don't have a problem with any religion, just those people that abuse it. Unfortunately, some religions have a hugher concentration of those morons than others, and this can blemish your overall opinion of a faith. When enough negativity surrounds something, you have to start wondering whether its something fundamentally wrong with that faith itself.

[daemon barbeque]

This crime those Pakistanis are attending has nothing to do with the religion itself. Those people get unwanted kids, which are morally unacceptable by their government and social circle. They are not killing the babies because Islam says so, no, they do it because they fear of the consequences. It has nothing to do with their beliefs or whatsoever. In fact, those who want to save those babies are religious too!

I don't like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism (If seen as religion) or anything else. I am an Atheist and I am not obliged to defend Islam, in contrary, I hate many aspects and leaders of the religion.
But in this case, this has nothing to do with their beliefs, but with their fears. Not the fear of Allah, but the fear of punishment.
I don't agree with them and I think it's disgusting, but I have to disagree with this being a "Islamic Barbarism", "Middle Eastern blah" or whatever.

[orb451]

Fair enough, we agree to disagree then. I see this having *everything* to do with Islam:

"In the conservative Muslim nation, where the birth of children outside of marriage is condemned and adultery is a crime punishable by death under strict interpretations of Islamic law, infanticide is a crime on the rise."

These people have no justification for their actions. Both they (the murderers) AND the government share responsibility. And it is their FAITH in Islam that has their hands metaphorically "tied". This is what happens when faith and government get in bed together.

[BigPhi84]

I figure I'd drop some articles in this thread. Sorry for the length and the repetition of information. Just for a little clarity... I'm a moderate and while I would never consider abortion, I do believe in the right to choose (I know, crazy).



Risk factors for infant homicide in the United States.
[My paper] R A Brenner, A C Trumble, L B Trifiletti, H W Berendes,

BACKGROUND: Homicide is the leading cause of infant deaths due to injury. More than 80 percent of infant homicides are considered to be fatal child abuse. This study assessed the timing of deaths and risk factors for infant homicide. METHODS: Using linked birth and death certificates for all births in the U.S. between 1983 and 1991, we identified 2776 homicides occurring during the first year of life. Birth-certificate variables were reviewed in both bivariate and multivariate stratified analyses. Variables potentially predictive of homicide were selected on the basis of increased relative risks among subcategories with adequate numbers for stable estimates. RESULTS: Half the homicides occurred by the fourth month of life. The most important risk factors were a second or subsequent infant born to a mother less than 17 years old (relative risk, 10.9) or 17 to 19 years old (relative risk, 9.3), as compared with a first infant born to a mother 25 years old or older; a maternal age of less than 15 years, as compared with an age of at least 25 years (relative risk, 6.8); no prenatal care as compared with early prenatal care (relative risk, 10.4); and less than 12 years of education among mothers who were at least 17 years old (relative risk, 8.0), as compared with 16 or more years of education. CONCLUSIONS: Childbearing at an early age was strongly associated with infant homicide, particularly if the mother had given birth previously. Our findings may have implications for prevention.




Modern America
"In 1966, the United States had 10,920 murders, and one out of every twenty-two was a child killed by a parent."
Despite our predilection for considering modern civilization "advanced," the crime of infanticide has continued to pervade most contemporary cultures. The major difference between the nature of infanticide in the twentieth century, when compared to the rest of recorded history, however, is due to the impact of one modern medical advancement: the widespread availability of safe, and legal, means of abortion. The ability to easily terminate a pregnancy, and thereby eliminate an unwanted child before it is born, has had a profound effect on the prevalence of infanticide. The human species has killed almost 10% - 15% of all children born. The majority of these murders have been associated with reasons of necessity at least in the minds of the infanticide parent - or with untoward reactions against an unwanted birth. With little ability to abort an unwanted pregnancy safely, troubled parents have had little choice but to wait until full-term delivery before disposing of the conception.
Of approximately 6.4 million pregnancies in the United States in 1988, 3.6 million were unintended and therefore subject to dangerous consequences. 1.6 million of those unwanted pregnancies resulted in abortion. In Britain, more than 160,000 legal abortions, or terminations of pregnancy, were carried out each year during this same period of time. The Family Planning Association in Russia says that there are more than 3 million abortions performed each year, more than double the number of births. In France, there are almost one million abortions each year, equal to the number of births. This means that over five million pregnancies were aborted in the Western world alone each year, and if the births of those children would not have been prevented, it is very likely that many of those infants would have been victims of infanticidal rage.
Morally right or wrong - a case of murder or manifestation of a woman's right to choose - the fact remains that the frequent use of abortion has eased the necessity for killing an infant after its birth.
Statistical Analysis - United States
Statistically, the United States ranks high on the list of countries whose inhabitants kill their children. For infants under the age of one year, the American homicide rate is 11th in the world, while for ages one through four it is 1st and for ages five through fourteen it is fourth. From 1968 to 1975, infanticide of all ages accounted for almost 3.2% of all reported homicides in the United States.
The 1980's followed similar trends. Whereby overall homicide rates were decreasing in the United States, the rate at which parents were killing their children was increasing, In 1983, over six hundred children were reported killed by their parents, and from 1982-1987, approximately 1.1% of all homicides were children under the age of one year of age. When the homicide of a child was committed by a parent, it was the younger age child who was in the greater danger of being killed, while if the killer was a non-parent, then the victim was generally older.
The characterization of the type of parent that is likely to kill their child has changed little over the years. As far back as the middle ages, the children of the poor "Were by far the most common victims of the parental negligence and despair." Today, infanticide is still most commonly seen in areas of severe poverty.
And just as infanticide was described as a crime that was committed by the mother in medieval times, such a likelihood remains true today. Although men are more likely to murder in general, statistical review of prosecutions show that infanticide is usually committed by the mother. When mothers killed their children, however, the victim was usually a newborn baby or younger infant. Some research shows that for murders of children over the age of one year in the United States, white fathers were the perpetrators 10% more often than white mothers, and black fathers 50% more than black mothers.
Other risk factors can include young maternal age, low level of education and employment, and signs of psychopathology, such as alcoholism, drug abuse or other criminal behavior. The most common method of killing children over the ages has been head trauma, strangulation and drowning. Most of the murders today are committed with the use of the mother's hands, either by strangulation or physical punishment.











In North America

The United States ranked eleventh for infants under 1 year killed, and fourth for those killed from 1 through 14 years (the latter case not necessarily involving filicide).[99] In the U.S. over six hundred children were killed by their parents in 1983.[100] In Canada 114 cases of child murder by a parent were reported during 1964-1968.[101] The vast majority of infant deaths in the United States are female babies.[101] Some of the cases that made news were those of Amy Grossberg and Brian Peterson, Genene Jones, Marybeth Tinning, Melissa Drexler, Dena Schlosser and Waneta Hoyt.
In 2009, Texas state representative Jessica Farrar proposed legislation that would define infanticide as a distinct and lesser crime than homicide.[102] Under the terms of the proposed legislation, if jurors concluded that a mother's "judgment was impaired as a result of the effects of giving birth or the effects of lactation following the birth," they would be allowed to convict her of the crime of infanticide, rather than murder.[103] The maximum penalty for infanciticide would be two years in prison.[103] Farrar's introduction of this bill prompted liberal bioethics scholar Jacob M. Appel to call her "the bravest politician in America."[103]








It sounds awful, but parents who kill their children are not as uncommon as most people would believe. CBS News Correspondent Cynthia Bowers reports, surprisingly, 1 in 3 children under the age of 5 who are killed in this country, are murdered by their mother.
And one of every 33 homicides in this country is a parent killing a child, including 450 times last year, Bowers reports. DECEMBER 2003
Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunters and gatherers to high civilization, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception,
then, it has been the rule. There is ample historical evidence to document the incredible propensity of parents to murder their children under an assortment of stressful situations. In nineteenth century England, for example, infanticide was so rampant throughout the country that a debate over how to correct the problem was carried out in both the lay and medical press. An editorial in the respected medical journal Lancet noted that "to the shame of civilization it must be avowed that not a State has yet advanced to the degree of progress under which child- murder may be said to be a very uncommon crime."


Infanticide has pervaded almost every society of mankind from the Golden Age of Greece to the splendor of the Persian Empire. While there are many diverse reasons for this wanton destruction, two of the most statistically important are poverty and population control. Since prehistoric times, the supply of food has been a constant check on human population growth. One way to control the lethal effects of starvation was to restrict the number of children allowed to survive to adulthood. Darwin believed that infanticide, "especially of female infants," was the most important restraint on the proliferation of early man.



Of approximately 6.4 million pregnancies in the United States in 1988, 3.6 million were unintended and therefore subject to dangerous consequences. 1.6 million of those unwanted pregnancies resulted in abortion. In Britain, more than 160,000 legal abortions, or terminations of pregnancy, were carried out each year during this same period of time. The Family Planning Association in Russia says that there are more than 3 million abortions performed each year, more than double the number of births. In France, there are almost one million abortions each year, equal to the number of births. This means that over five million pregnancies were aborted in the Western world alone each year, and if the births of those children would not have been prevented, it is very likely that many of those infants would have been victims of infanticidal rage.



Morally right or wrong - a case of murder or manifestation of a woman's right to choose - the fact remains that the frequent use of abortion has eased the necessity for killing an infant after its birth.













CDC: Newborns Face Highest Murder Risk
Most infant victims born outside of hospitals, study finds




In the United States, you are 10 times more likely to die by homicide -- to be murdered -- on the day you are born than at any other time during your life, according to a study just released by the Centers of Disease Control (CDC).
Even if you make through your first day, you still risk a better chance of being murdered during your first year of life than in any other year of childhood before you turn 17, according to the CDC.
In their analysis of the total 3,312 infant homicides reported between 1989-1998, CDC found homicide to be the 15th leading cause of infant death in the United States, with the most homicides occurring during the first four months of life.
Among homicides during the first week of life, 82.6 percent occurred on the day of birth, 9.2 percent on the second day, and 8.2 percent during the remainder of the week. Overall, 243 (7.3 percent) of all infant homicides occurred on the day of birth. Homicide rates on the first day of life are at least ten times greater than in later times of life, according to the report.
Among infants murdered on their day of birth, 89 percent were not born in a hospital, and 89 percent of known perpetrators were women, usually the mother. Additionally, CDC reports that mothers who kill their infants are more likely to be adolescents and have a history of mental illness.
After the first week of life, a second peak homicide risk period occurs during the 8th week and may, says the CDC, reflect the peak in the daily duration of crying among normal infants between 6 and 8 weeks of age.
As disturbing as these findings may be, CDC concluded that incidents of infant homicide are probably under-reported, with many more murders being incorrectly diagnosed as having resulted from unintentional injuries or sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS).
CDC's findings are backed up in a 1998 study by the National Institutes of Health finding homicide to be the leading cause infant death due to injury.
To reduce the number of infant homicides on the day of birth, CDC suggest development of programs to prevent out-of-hospital births, especially among high-risk mothers. CDC further suggests home visitation and parenting programs, especially those beginning during pregnancy, might help reduce child abuse during later periods of infancy.
Summary Findings: Homicide Risk Among Infants

• Homicide is the 15th leading cause of infant death in the United States. The risk of homicide is greater in infancy than in any other year of childhood before age 17.
• Infants are at greatest risk for homicide during the first week of infancy and the first day of life.
• Among homicides during the first week of life, 82.6% occurred on the day of birth.
• The homicide rate on the first day of life was more than ten times greater than the rate during any other time of life.
• Among homicides on the first day of life, previous work has shown that 95% of victims are not born in a hospital.
• The second highest peak in risk for infant homicide occurs during the eighth week of life and may be due to a caregiver's reaction to an infant's persistent crying. Infant crying duration peaks at six to eight weeks of age.
• Among homicides during the first week of life, 89% of perpetrators are female, usually the mother. Mothers who kill their infants are more likely to be adolescents and have a history of mental illness.

The report was published in CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report.
Related Report: Researchers Identify Risk Factors For Infants Most Likely to be Homicide Victims
"An infant's chances of becoming a homicide victim during the first year of life are greatest if he or she is the second or later born child of a teenage mother, according to an analysis of birth and death certificates by researchers at the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development (NICHD). Homicide is the leading cause of infant death due to injury." - NIH press release - Oct. 21, 1998.

[bostjan]

That's a lot of data. I was not aware that so many people murder their own children. That's really messed up.

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Infanticide has been practiced on every continent

Even Antarctica?

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by bostjan

That's a lot of data. I was not aware that so many people murder their own children. That's really messed up.



Even Antarctica?

Do they have baby seals there? Relax, it was a joke.


On a side note, does anyone else think of "Harvester of Sorrow" when they see the word, "Infanticide"?

[Xaios]

Originally Posted by orb451

This is what happens when faith and government get in bed together.

I think that blanket statement is a bit too broad. I would agree that this is the worst possible outcome that can occur when faith and government get in bed together.

[bostjan]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Do they have baby seals there? Relax, it was a joke.

Sorry, I forgot to insert smiley.

[renzoip]

Originally Posted by orb451

What they're doing is wrong. They're doing it in the name of their religion. That's atrocious.

This, I think we can all agree on.

However, I understand daemon's point. I don't see anyone here trying to justify these actions, or excuse their religious motive. However, I do understand that the media over emphasized religion to be the one root of just about everything happening in countries with large muslim populations. As far as I'm concerned, the major concerns in those countries are the economy, inflation, unemployment, and political repression, much like they are in other western countries.

On the other hand, whenever new like this arise, it immediately turns into a Islam bashing. And even that I don't care about. The problem is that after the Islam bashing, it turns into oppressive right-wing rhetoric/propaganda about marginalizing muslim people. Not saying it is happening here. But if this wasn't the case for the most part (and they weren't right wingers most of the time), then we wouldn't have muslim apologist coming up 90% of the time.

[Customisbetter]

I'm still of the opinion that people are evil and any negative behavior of any group or organization is the result of that inherent evilness.

[daemon barbeque]

Originally Posted by orb451

Fair enough, we agree to disagree then. I see this having *everything* to do with Islam:

"In the conservative Muslim nation, where the birth of children outside of marriage is condemned and adultery is a crime punishable by death under strict interpretations of Islamic law, infanticide is a crime on the rise."

These people have no justification for their actions. Both they (the murderers) AND the government share responsibility. And it is their FAITH in Islam that has their hands metaphorically "tied". This is what happens when faith and government get in bed together.

I actually don not disagree with you at all. Their Sharia law makes people to be under heavy pressure and cause unwanted actions.
But it is not their belief to blame.. Sharia is not belief. Sharia is a political instrument like any other system.

OTOH, BigPhi shows clearly that many people under pressure causes similar atrocities. People in Moldova selling their young girls to pedophiles, People from Europe and other places buy those kids. Look at Thailand. Budhism is the culture of peace, but the highest rate of human trade, kid prostitution etc.

[orb451]

Funny, in all the info that BigPhi posted, I didn't read anything about people killing children as a direct result of faith in their religion, or because of religious laws (and their consequences).

I read some things about stressful situations, poverty, poor education, etc, but nothing of faith. Whereas in the linked article, these people are killing infants as a direct result of their faith. In this instance, it is fear of severe repercussions from the simple act of *having* children. The kids are a liability, what better way to eliminate that liability than to *kill* the kids? It's too bad Infanticide is more prevalent than previously thought, but I'm not seeing a lot of examples of infanticide happening at increasing rates as a direct result of people's faith in organized religion. Except in Pakistan, where apparently the rate is increasing.

And Daemon, the Sharia Law stems DIRECTLY from their faith in Islam. Sharia Law is a part, and my understanding is, a huge part, of the Islamic faith. Sure it's a political instrument, but it's growth and adherence is directly related to Islam. That is, it is not a stand-alone form of governing. It *might* be if you want to pose hypothetical situations, but at the moment it is intrinsically linked to Islam, at least in Pakistan and as far as this discussion and the topic at hand goes.

[daemon barbeque]

Originally Posted by orb451

Funny, in all the info that BigPhi posted, I didn't read anything about people killing children as a direct result of faith in their religion, or because of religious laws (and their consequences).

I read some things about stressful situations, poverty, poor education, etc, but nothing of faith. Whereas in the linked article, these people are killing infants as a direct result of their faith. In this instance, it is fear of severe repercussions from the simple act of *having* children. The kids are a liability, what better way to eliminate that liability than to *kill* the kids? It's too bad Infanticide is more prevalent than previously thought, but I'm not seeing a lot of examples of infanticide happening at increasing rates as a direct result of people's faith in organized religion. Except in Pakistan, where apparently the rate is increasing.

And Daemon, the Sharia Law stems DIRECTLY from their faith in Islam. Sharia Law is a part, and my understanding is, a huge part, of the Islamic faith. Sure it's a political instrument, but it's growth and adherence is directly related to Islam. That is, it is not a stand-alone form of governing. It *might* be if you want to pose hypothetical situations, but at the moment it is intrinsically linked to Islam, at least in Pakistan and as far as this discussion and the topic at hand goes.

Again, without knowing and understanding Islam, it's roots and evolution, you can't blatantly state that todays Sharia stems from their faith.
Look at Iran for instance. People are under heavy pressure, and can't get out of the Sharia nightmare. The Persians are not in Sharia because of their Faith, but the Islamic Fascists get the power in the right moment and push it to the people. This is what happens in Pakistan too. Sharia and it's "applications" is far away for Quran's teachings, and it's used to keep people under control even if everything else is corrupt. poverty is dominant and people are starving.

So, the Goverment tells you not to have sex if you are not married. It also prohibits to have kids with unmarried people. If you still insist to do that, you get punished. So people left their newborns somewhere because
1) Somebody might find it and raise it.
2) Nobody can claim it was yours
3) Abortion is not an option
4) You can't just give it to some orphan organization.

The rules of marriage are not described in Quran. Every newborn is welcome and to be protected in Islam. So Sharia as it is in Iran, Malaysia or Pakistan are not following the Religious guide, but Political Bigots. You are not allowed to kill in Islam, and killing your own newborn is an Unforgivable sin!

Look at Poland, where abortion is not allowed, since it is a sin for Christian belief. It is a religious law, and doctors who do abortion are going to be sentenced with murder, so does the mother.

Again, BigPhi's post shows no demographic data, nobody checked the religious background, since it's happening everywhere on earth. You can't make assumptions from data which is not existing.

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by orb451

Funny, in all the info that BigPhi posted, I didn't read anything about people killing children as a direct result of faith in their religion, or because of religious laws (and their consequences).

EXACTLY!!!!! You're not a dense as you look! . LOL. j/k. Look, I don't want to get in a battle with you b/c 1.) I'm not Randy, 2.) I'm not as liberal as Randy, and 3.) I actually like you, even though you're a crazy conservative.

What I was trying to show is that the United States has one of the highest rates of infanticide in a "developed" nation AND the world, in spite of the fact that we don't have sharia law.

Let me spit out a hypothetical. You are a staunch Republican, right? Suppose that your party was able to get it's way and abortion was outlawed in the United States. This could be viewed as a religious-backed law, right, A U.S. Sharia Law, if you were to stretch a bit? In 2005 (the most recent year for which there is reliable data), approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S. Are you seriously willing to believe that our infanticide number wouldn't rise above 1,000 if the right of legal medical abortion was taken away? Even if only 0.1% of these Americans resorted to what these barbaric Pakistanis did, our statistic would be higher, and granted, this is not accounting for the infanticide rates that we already have in our country with legalized abortion!


Okay, that's enough from me. Let me leave you with more statistics.



In 2004, the highest number of reported legal induced abortions occurred in Florida (91,710), NYC (91,673), and Texas (74,801) (What Texas??? I thought that they were a conservative, God-loving state?)

The abortion rate in the United States was higher than recent rates reported for Canada and Western European countries and lower than rates reported for China, Cuba (What? China and Cuba have outlawed religion! This makes no sense!)






WHO HAS ABORTIONS?

• At least 80% of all abortions are performed on unmarried women (CDC).
• The abortion ratio for unmarried women is 510 abortions for every 1,000 live births. For married women it is 61 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions (CDC).
• 50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
• Adolescents under 15 years obtained less than 1% of all abortions, but have the highest abortion ratio, 773 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).
• 47% of women who have abortions had at least one previous abortion (AGI).
• Black women are more than 4.8 times more likely than non-Hispanic white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.7 times as likely (AGI).
• 43% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI).
• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended; about 4 in 10 of these are terminated by abortion. Twenty-two percent of all U.S. pregnancies end in abortion. (AGI).
• WHY ARE ABORTIONS PERFORMED?

• On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).

WHEN DO ABORTIONS OCCUR?

• 88% of all abortions happen during the first trimester, prior to the 13th week (AGI/CDC).

ABORTION FATALITY

• In 2003 (the most recent year for which data are available), 10 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion (CDC).
• The number of deaths attributable to legal induced abortion was highest before the 1980s (CDC).
• In 1972 (the year before abortion was federally legalized), a total of 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions, and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions (CDC).

THE COST OF ABORTION

• In 2005, the cost of a nonhospital abortion with local anesthesia at 10 weeks of gestation ranged from $90 to $1,800, and the average amount paid was $413 (AGI).

ABORTION AND CONTRACEPTION

• Induced abortions usually result from unintended pregnancies, which often occur despite the use of contraception (CDC).
• 54% of women having abortions used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of condom users reported using the methods inconsistently, while 13% of pill users and 14% of condom users reported correct use (AGI).
• 8% of women having abortions have never used a method of birth control (AGI).
• 9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method (AGI).

ABORTION AND MINORS

• 40% of minors having an abortion report that neither of their parents knew about the abortion (AGI).
• 35 states currently enforce parental consent or notification laws for minors seeking an abortion: AL, AR, AZ, CO, DE, FL, GA, IA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MD, MI, MN, MO, MS, NC, ND, NE, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA,WI, WV, and WY. The Supreme Court ruled that minors must have the alternative of seeking a court order authorizing the procedure (AGI).

ABORTION AND PUBLIC FUNDS

• The U.S. Congress has barred the use of federal Medicaid funds to pay for abortions, except when the woman's life would be endangered by a full-term pregnancy or in cases of rape or incest (AGI).
• 17 states (AK, AZ, CA, CT, HI, IL, MA, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) do use public funds to pay for abortions for some poor women. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds (virtually all from the state) (AGI).

[Xaios]

Very interesting statistics.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

BigPhi's blatant attack on lil' ol' me, as well as more statistical mumbo-jumbo hoo-doo / voodoo

Look man, first, I know you're not Randy. That's a good thing, maybe the best of things. Second obviously you're a pinko commie Demoncrat like the rest of the bleeding Vagina Liberals on here

All the jokes aside though, you are mistaken, I am NOT, repeat NOT a Republican. Never have been, nor likely ever will be. Yes I am conservative in a lot of respects. Obviously a lot more than most members on here.

Another mistake is for you to think that I am pro-life. I am not. I am pro-choice. It's a woman's body, it's her right to choose. I don't think Abortion should be the *first* step in birth control, but it should remain on the table as an option if there are no feasible alternatives.

I get your point though, if the Republicans or social conservatives had their way, generally speaking, I believe they *would* make Abortion illegal. However, I disagree that Infanticide would suddenly spike here in the US. Why? Because I don't think the government is ever, ever ever ever ever, going to enact the DEATH penalty for people have kids out of wedlock, marriage, as a result of an adulterous affair, etc.

Ever.

Not going to happen. They'll find the Loch Ness Monster and Jimmy Hoffa living together in South Dakota, raising lambs and going on "fishing" trips to Brokeback Mountain before they enact a law like that.

So, what that means is, even if, hypothetically, abortion were outlawed tomorrow, people would *still* have abortions, that's a given and the remainder of the people would just carry the pregnancies to term and then give the kids up for adoption, etc. If they made abortion illegal, they're not going to hand out death sentences to anyone caught having one. And more to the point, in Pakistan, they're not having *abortions* we're talking about kids that are already born, in the flesh, obviating any need for abortion discussions.

These people can't do the latter. They can't simply have the kids and then give them up to orphanages or willing families. The kids are a liability on their very LIVES, therefore, in their minds, the only suitable course of action is to kill the kids. This is repugnant.

Now I know you've got a boatload of statistics about Infanticide in America and that's fine and dandy, just note, that the discussion was about Pakistan. Not America. What's the population of Pakistan again? And what's the current US population? Somewhat of a disparity is there in numbers? Exactly. And to my point, what the hell does people killing kids in America have to do with people killing kids in Pakistan?

Nothing.

It's happening everywhere you say? It's happening in greater numbers in America you say? How awful! That's a tragedy. I'd like to know more, sign me up to your newsletter! But I'm not seeing any THING that's jumping out as reasons for them doing it here in America that is vaguely related to state laws or consequences of religious law(s). None. Who knows why they're doing it here? Maybe, cuz they're ....ing batshit loco... but that's just a guess.

And why are they doing it over there in Pakistan? Because they fear the consequences of their Muslim leaders and laws. And on top of that, some of them are probably batshit loco.

There's a damned difference.

Now, disclaimer time, I like you too BigPhi, so please don't take the above as an attack on you personally. Yeah I get heated, etc, but know that the tone I'm writing this in, is more laughing/smirking, having a good time, than a ".... you man, you're wrong and I'm right" kind of manner

@ Daemon, I get what you're saying, but I believe that Islam and Sharia Law are instrinsically linked. That there are some moderate or liberal Muslims that don't adhere as closely to it's rules, or that some extremist Muslims interpret it in a far more socially conservative manner, surprises me little. I'm sure other faiths have values, rules and perhaps "laws" to live by, and I'm sure you'll find other faiths have people bending and twisting those laws and rules quite a bit if it suits their agenda.

But it seems like you don't want to believe that Sharia Law is tied to Islam. Not that WikiPedia is the be all, end all of information, but I trust most of their articles. This is an excerpt from Sharia Law:

"Sharia (Arabic شريعة Šarīʿa; [ʃaˈriːʕa], "way" or "path") is the sacred law of Islam. Most Muslims believe Sharia is derived from two primary sources of Islamic law: the divine revelations set forth in the Qur'an, and the example set by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah. Fiqhjurisprudence interprets and extends the application of Sharia to questions not directly addressed in the primary sources by including secondary sources. These secondary sources usually include the consensus of the religious scholars embodied in ijma, and analogy from the Qur'an and Sunnah through qiyas. Shia jurists replace qiyas analogy with 'aql, reasoning.


Muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they differ as to what exactly it entails.[1] Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia as well."

I don't need to do a term paper on Islam, it's roots and all the wonderful things it embodies to read the above and *know* that Sharia Law is Islamic Law. As noted above, what Sharia Law encompasses, differs from place to place. But again, this does not CHANGE the fact that it is rooted in Islam.

Here's what I know about statistics:

"Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures."

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by orb451

Another mistake is for you to think that I am pro-life. I am not. I am pro-choice. It's a woman's body, it's her right to choose. I don't think Abortion should be the *first* step in birth control, but it should remain on the table as an option if there are no feasible alternatives.

I never said that you were pro-life. Birth control is great, but look at the statistic about birth control failures and abortion again. Shit happens. Condoms break, birth control pills are only so effective.

Originally Posted by orb451

However, I disagree that Infanticide would suddenly spike here in the US. Why? Because I don't think the government is ever, ever ever ever ever, going to enact the DEATH penalty for people have kids out of wedlock, marriage, as a result of an adulterous affair, etc.

I definitely disagree. We already have a high abortion rate and a high rate of infanticide, despite the fact that we don't punish it with the death penalty. If anything, the fact that it's only a felony (if you get caught) in America would further the problem if this hypothetical was to occur. There's even a Texas judge that's trying to lower the punishment if a woman is convicted of killing her own child.

Don't make me find adoption statistics in America. It's quite depressing. Truthfully, our system of adoption would collapse if abortion was made illegal.

Originally Posted by orb451

What's the population of Pakistan again? And what's the current US population? Somewhat of a disparity is there in numbers? Exactly. And to my point, what the hell does people killing kids in America have to do with people killing kids in Pakistan?

169,708,303 vs 307,006,550. Not as disparate as you would like to believe. The reason that I bring the U.S. up is because if we are to point the finger and talk about how bad things are over there, we have to look internally first. Otherwise, we end up looking like hypocrites. Yeah, yeah... "Speak for yourself."

Originally Posted by orb451

@ Daemon, I get what you're saying, but I believe that Islam and Sharia Law are instrinsically linked. That there are some moderate or liberal Muslims that don't adhere as closely to it's rules, or that some extremist Muslims interpret it in a far more socially conservative manner, surprises me little. I'm sure other faiths have values, rules and perhaps "laws" to live by, and I'm sure you'll find other faiths have people bending and twisting those laws and rules quite a bit if it suits their agenda.

Many conservatives in the US like to think that our judicial system directly descends from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Others, like me, tend to think otherwise (and I'm a Christian BTW.) Still, I thought I'd bring this up.

Originally Posted by orb451

Here's what I know about statistics: "Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures."

That 1,000 babies figure that is so angering you is a statistic as well. In a country that is almost 170 million strong, this is hardly an epidemic. Sure, I agree with you. The laws of Pakistan concerning these matters need to be addressed. What I'd like to know is how many babies are still born out of wedlock in Pakistan. Out of the 170 million, there have to be some, right?

I guess this is a matter that we'll have to agree to strongly disagree about. I still love ya, even though you're a nutcase. If I'm ever on the West Coast, drinks are on me. On a related note, after visiting Virginia, I can see how one could eventually go crazy. Those roads are insane!

So, this is a guitar forum. When's the last time you posted about a guitar? Cheers.

[Meatbucket]

Leaving babies in a landfill = Wrong
Giving a baby you can't take care of to a family that can't have children = Right
Girlfriend in previous relationship playing the "I'm pregant" joke just to see how you'd react = Priceless

For everything else there's Mastercard...to pay for abortions.

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by Meatbucket

Leaving babies in a landfill = Wrong
Giving a baby you can't take care of to a family that can't have children = Right
Girlfriend in previous relationship playing the "I'm pregant" joke just to see how you'd react = Priceless

For everything else there's Mastercard...to pay for abortions.

Hahaha. I'm going to hell for laughing at that!

[orb451]

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

I never said that you were pro-life. Birth control is great, but look at the statistic about birth control failures and abortion again. Shit happens. Condoms break, birth control pills are only so effective.

You said Republican and equated that, with thinking that I'm somehow anti-abortion. You were wrong, but it's no big deal. And I agree, all kinds of shit happens before, during after sex, good times... good times

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

I definitely disagree. We already have a high abortion rate and a high rate of infanticide, despite the fact that we don't punish it with the death penalty. If anything, the fact that it's only a felony (if you get caught) in America would further the problem if this hypothetical was to occur. There's even a Texas judge that's trying to lower the punishment if a woman is convicted of killing her own child.

And per my usual viewpoint it *should* be up to the states to decide the punishment for certain offenses. I don't see any issue with that. Yeah we have high rates for abortion, and infanticide too if you go by the numbers you've produced. But we're arguing hypothetical situations, so what's the point? Abortion is still very much legal, and will likely remain so. Infanticide in America on the other hand is apparently a big problem too. But has nothing to do with fear of dogmatic legal consequences. Hence the thread. Hence the difference of opinion.

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

The reason that I bring the U.S. up is because if we are to point the finger and talk about how bad things are over there, we have to look internally first. Otherwise, we end up looking like hypocrites. Yeah, yeah... "Speak for yourself."

Yeah, I think speak for yourself pretty much sums it up.

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

Many conservatives in the US like to think that our judicial system directly descends from the Judeo-Christian tradition. Others, like me, tend to think otherwise (and I'm a Christian BTW.) Still, I thought I'd bring this up.

And it may, but it's not as hard coded into our government as some Liberals would have us believe. I'm an atheist and personally, I don't give a shit if it says "In God We Trust" on our currency. Nor do I give a shit if the Pledge of Allegiance has "One Nation Under God" in there somewhere. I *do* believe in a separation of church and state. So you might think, how can you be an Atheist and not care about those things and still support a separation of church and state? Simple, I just do.

To your point, yeah I've heard that line of thinking before as well, that *basically* the Conservatives/Republicans/etc view America as a "Christian" or "Judaeo-Christian" nation. And as a direct result of that "influence" our laws are more or less influenced in *that* direction. I say, until they deny basic human rights to our citizens, and/or Roe vs. Wade is struck down or overturned, who cares? I know I don't. Our laws at the oldest are a few hundred years old and just stem from European laws and socially accepted behaviors before them. Big deal. I think, contrasting America's laws against some "Muslim" states or nations shows how *much* freer we are, in a lot of respects.

There is some influence between the church and state, I wish there wasn't, but there is here as well. I freely recognize that. But it's NOTHING in comparison to some of these other countries. And so no, I don't need to look inward to see their behavior as reprehensible and nonsensical. It's just a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

That 1,000 babies figure that is so angering you is a statistic as well. In a country that is almost 170 million strong, this is hardly an epidemic. Sure, I agree with you. The laws of Pakistan concerning these matters need to be addressed. What I'd like to know is how many babies are still born out of wedlock in Pakistan. Out of the 170 million, there have to be some, right?

What angers me is a country that lets it's religious laws dictate, restrict or otherwise gird individual freedoms. I don't care whether it's 1000 dead babies, one dead baby or one hundred seventy million dead babies. It's their god damned warped sense of reality that irritates me to no end. And yes, the *same* anger applies to the US, in instances where *I* personally feel that US laws are influenced directly by any religion. However, given the freedoms that we have (for the moment) I still think we're better off and in a better society overall, than those poor bastards. Yes I'm talking about Pakistan, Iran, to a lesser extent Afghanistan, etc. Any nation, that is tied into or in bed with a theocracy of sorts.

I see America *slowly* heading in that direction. But it's at a snails pace. When we start enacting laws like those in Pakistan, because the "Religious Right" finally gain control, or whatever it is the Liberal Left "think" is going to happen in a evangelical apocalypse, I'll happily find another country to live in.

But it's not going to happen. Thankfully we have the "appearance" of a Democracy, so I'll continue to vote and urge others to do the same, so we can get people in office, and in power, that represent "We the people" as it ought to be, not "we the few".

Originally Posted by BigPhi84

I guess this is a matter that we'll have to agree to strongly disagree about. I still love ya, even though you're a nutcase. If I'm ever on the West Coast, drinks are on me. On a related note, after visiting Virginia, I can see how one could eventually go crazy. Those roads are insane!

So, this is a guitar forum. When's the last time you posted about a guitar? Cheers.

Yep, nothing wrong with a good back n' forth... ya ....in' commie
And hit me up anytime you're on the Left coast, you'd probably like it out here with the rest of the slack jawed fruit loops

And dude, I haven't posted about a guitar since my last NGD, and likely won't unless there's a good Gibson bashing thread going on

Cheers!

[BigPhi84]

Originally Posted by orb451

You said Republican and equated that, with thinking that I'm somehow anti-abortion. You were wrong, but it's no big deal. And I agree, all kinds of shit happens before, during after sex, good times... good times

As crazy as I've seen you in other threads, there was no doubt in my mind that you were pro-choice!!! In fact, most of the pro-life arguments I hear from conservatives comes from the super-religious. If anything, super-religious you are NOT!!!

Originally Posted by orb451

And it may, but it's not as hard coded into our government as some Liberals would have us believe. I'm an atheist and personally, I don't give a shit if it says "In God We Trust" on our currency. Nor do I give a shit if the Pledge of Allegiance has "One Nation Under God" in there somewhere. I *do* believe in a separation of church and state. So you might think, how can you be an Atheist and not care about those things and still support a separation of church and state? Simple, I just do.

It's not that far-fetched and I respect you even more after reading this. People think it's crazy that I'm a Christian, but I still listen to Slayer. It shouldn't be an issue, and I'm glad that you see it that way as well.

Originally Posted by orb451

What angers me is a country that lets it's religious laws dictate, restrict or otherwise gird individual freedoms. I don't care whether it's 1000 dead babies, one dead baby or one hundred seventy million dead babies. It's their god damned warped sense of reality that irritates me to no end. And yes, the *same* anger applies to the US, in instances where *I* personally feel that US laws are influenced directly by any religion. However, given the freedoms that we have (for the moment) I still think we're better off and in a better society overall, than those poor bastards. Yes I'm talking about Pakistan, Iran, to a lesser extent Afghanistan, etc. Any nation, that is tied into or in bed with a theocracy of sorts.

How do you feel about communistic societies and their personal freedom restrictions? Is that hate any different?

Originally Posted by orb451

I see America *slowly* heading in that direction. But it's at a snails pace. When we start enacting laws like those in Pakistan, because the "Religious Right" finally gain control, or whatever it is the Liberal Left "think" is going to happen in a evangelical apocalypse, I'll happily find another country to live in.

The funny thing about humanity is that views tend to swing back and forth like a pendulum. The problem is that because it is so slow, most people aren't aware of it. For instance, our generation will one day control this country. The annoying "issues" that we faced growing up will still be at the front of our minds and hopefully, we will turns the tides once again. This has happened throughout history.

Originally Posted by orb451

Yep, nothing wrong with a good back n' forth... ya ....in' commie
And hit me up anytime you're on the Left coast, you'd probably like it out here with the rest of the slack jawed fruit loops

I've visited California and Las Vegas a couple of times (I'll actually be in Las Vegas next week) and although I liked it a lot there was an... um... issue. You see, I'm Asian. Over here in Georgia, I'm special (these Southern Belles like their egg rolls. LOL), but over in California, I'm just another chink.