The "Dream Act"

[willy petro]

Well as you may know The Dream Act is a way for illegal immigrants to go to college as long as they are morally good. Its a way for illegals who finish high school to get a free ride through college. No expenses what so ever. Personally I think this is a bunch of bull to be honest. Why should a person who has no right to be here be entitled to a free education. I don't understand why law biding citizens have to pay for schooling while the illegal immigrants are having things handed to them. I'd like to see other peoples opinions and viewpoints on this topic very much. I'm open for different ideas on this matter.

**correction there is no free ride. False information I looked at**

[Customisbetter]

I need a link, but based on what I've heard, this is MASSIVE bullshit.

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by Customisbetter

I need a link, but based on what I've heard, this is MASSIVE bullshit.

DREAM Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here see if this clarifies things. From news and other things i've seen its ridiculous.

[orb451]

Yup, you can pretty much guess where I stand on this issue being one of the only semi-Right-swinging nutters on here I think it's a crock of horseshit. Just another veiled attempt at amnesty, and yet another issue wrapped up in "warm fuzzy" feelings that bring a tear to your eye...

Why we put law-breakers before our own law abiding citizens just boggles my mind.

[IDLE]

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.

Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.

My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.

[The Somberlain]

What is "morally good" and why are we serving non-citizens while our citizens are largely unable to pay for college?

[Customisbetter]

Ok to get the benefits of this Act, you have to show proof of living here..

WHAT THE ....

They are illegals. Any sorts of ID or papers they are illegal. How the .... are we supposed to say "oh that blurry poloroid of you dated 2000 obviously proves you were inside US borders. Here ya go kid!"

..... This. Shit.

Ok Im done. I'll wait for Orb to write a long winded and factual argument.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by IDLE

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.

Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.

My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.

Exactly.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Customisbetter

Ok to get the benefits of this Act, you have to show proof of living here..

WHAT THE ....

They are illegals. Any sorts of ID or papers they are illegal. How the .... are we supposed to say "oh that blurry poloroid of you dated 2000 obviously proves you were inside US borders. Here ya go kid!"

..... This. Shit.

Ok Im done. I'll wait for Orb to write a long winded and incredibly, stubbornly biased argument.

Fixed.



Love you orb

[Customisbetter]

[Explorer]

I haven't read up on this.

However, I'm willing to bet that the first post has at least one large error, given how often that turns out to be the case whenever I read an opening post like that.

[Randy]

^


Yeah, that's not a very promising introduction.

[renzoip]

Originally Posted by IDLE

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.

Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.

My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.

I also agree with this. People are just so caught up in scapegoating of these people and they miss the real issue here. Once again, this is not granting anyone free education at the expense of poor honest hard working racist classist americans. Students would have to pay out of pocket or access private loans/grants. Now if the aid is private, then its not taking anything from anyone. On the other hand, these people came here or stayed here illegally while being minors, I don't see why they should be treated as if they really had any choice.

We bring tons people from overseas under H1 work visas to people who are not essential or sometimes even qualified for the jobs they claim, when we have all thee people here who have the capabilities and yet, we deny them jobs. But who is complaining there??

We blame undocumented migrants for taking our jobs (mostly jobs that we don't even want to do), yet when companies move overseas and take away thousands of jobs from american, who is complaining there? We actually award them by giving them tax breaks, lol.

Immigrants themselves aren't the problem, they immigration problem is only a byproduct of the capitalist system we embrace, of the "free" market that we preach. The right wing wants an open market, yet the reality is that only the goods market is open, labor remains systematically fixed and suppressed.

This is the right wing doing what it does best. People on the top keep playing with the country, while managing to convince the vulnerable middle class that the cause of their problems is not them, but rather the lower disenfranchised classes. Divide and conquer, works every time.

So yeah, I buy none of the arguments against the DREAM act.

[Adam Of Angels]

^ right on the money. I basically don't have to say anything here, now. Yet.

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by IDLE

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.

Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.

My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.

This is exactly what I was looking for. I have no problem with them becoming citizens. My view on this is that the immigrants should have to become a citizen before they enter a college. Im fine with them wanting to fight for our country if they truely want to be an American.

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by Randy

^


Yeah, that's not a very promising introduction.

Lol i know. Im just going off of what my school and local news has televised. Thats why i wanted other peoples views and opinions on this so I can make a better opinion about this issue.

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by renzoip

I also agree with this. People are just so caught up in scapegoating of these people and they miss the real issue here. Once again, this is not granting anyone free education at the expense of poor honest hard working racist classist americans. Students would have to pay out of pocket or access private loans/grants. Now if the aid is private, then its not taking anything from anyone. On the other hand, these people came here or stayed here illegally while being minors, I don't see why they should be treated as if they really had any choice.

We bring tons people from overseas under H1 work visas to people who are not essential or sometimes even qualified for the jobs they claim, when we have all thee people here who have the capabilities and yet, we deny them jobs. But who is complaining there??

We blame undocumented migrants for taking our jobs (mostly jobs that we don't even want to do), yet when companies move overseas and take away thousands of jobs from american, who is complaining there? We actually award them by giving them tax breaks, lol.

Immigrants themselves aren't the problem, they immigration problem is only a byproduct of the capitalist system we embrace, of the "free" market that we preach. The right wing wants an open market, yet the reality is that only the goods market is open, labor remains systematically fixed and suppressed.

This is the right wing doing what it does best. People on the top keep playing with the country, while managing to convince the vulnerable middle class that the cause of their problems is not them, but rather the lower disenfranchised classes. Divide and conquer, works every time.

So yeah, I buy none of the arguments against the DREAM act.

Nicely put. I've thought about this all night. And i'm pretty right in the middle with the act. It truely isn't there fault they're here. So I don't see what the big problem is. From what im seeing now its not that bad. I hate when people shove info down my throat that means nothing. Thanks for posting and nice example with the outsourcing!

[synrgy]

Originally Posted by IDLE

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants.

/thread.

[cwhitey2]

This is why i hate America...

My taxes pay for people who don't even live on this continent to come here and go to school . There are no real perks anymore for being a US citizen (yeah we are 'free' and its better than most places). I have no problem if they want to come get educated...but why should i have to pay for it? I cant even put myself through college. Yet some kid from poverty stricken India (just using them as an example) basically gets a free ride to take his 'doctorate' back to his home country and live the good life, if got half the money they got for going to school that would be stellar.

Oh, and this not just a rant. I have witnessed it first hand.

[synrgy]

If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...cks-dream-act/

[orb451]

First, I love ya too Adam

Second, let's be realistic and honest here, this bill is designed to help Latino immigrants. The students/immigrants coming here on work visas from India and Europe aren't sneaking in on American Airline flights. They represent the tiniest sliver of people that this bill is aimed at.

This bill is aimed squarely at Latino immigrants from Central and South America because they represent the *bulk* of our illegal immigration problem. The problem is a severe disparity between our country and our closest neighbor to the South, Mexico. They have let their country be overtaken with corruption at almost every level of government in addition to their drug cartel problems.

An almost unending cycle of poverty is what drives them out of their country. It's not the "free" market that we "preach" or some Leftist propaganda that brings them here. They have no future, or a dim one, in their own country. Now contrast their living situation to ours. Our poor live like kings compared to theirs. And while our government may be a bunch of thieving bastards at times, the corruption in ours is vastly different than theirs.

This contrast is not a slight on them, just an observation. If that means I'm a racist, oh ....ing well. So with this disparity, I'm not at all surprised that Mexicans are leaving their country en mass to come here for better opportunities. I only take issue with treating them *better* than our own citizens.

They are here illegally. The proponents simply argue that they have no choice in the matter. That they are the victims. Thus, they should be REWARDED for breaking the law, or they should be rewarded because their parents broke the law. That's just laughable to me. Flat out laughable.

So we reward law breakers, is that how this country works now? We reward bad behavior. Oh that's right, it's because they didn't know, or didn't have a choice in the matter. Read the Wiki article to start with, it says in there:

An estimated 65,000 illegal immigrant students[18] graduate from high school each year.[19] However, it is not known how many of those were eligible go on to complete the further requirements. It is estimated that only 7,000–13,000 college students nationally can fulfill the further obligations.

65,000 illegal immigrant students graduate each year. 65,000? That's pathetic. And of those, again, going by Wiki's numbers, 7,000-13,000 are able to fulfill the obligations if this was enacted? We're passing this bill to help a few thousand people? Really? No. They're trying to pass this bill in 2012 because it's an election year and the Democrats know that Latinos will flock to them like moths to a flame if they make their rounds, shaking hands and acting as though they're on the side of illegal immigrants.

I've seen the same thing happen just in this last Gubernatorial election here in California. All the Left leaning candidates were condemning SB1070 in Arizona, supporting the boycotts, waving their arms around like they actually gave a shit about Latinos. And the Right leaning candidates were the opposite, until Meg Whitman won in the primaries. Then she flip-flopped and suddenly wasn't so tough on illegal immigrants.

If you folks on the Left can't see what your leadership is trying to do with this bill, I feel sorry for you. Truly sorry. At the ground level, I can see why you think this is such a great idea. Why it seems like at face value to just "help" the poor law-breakers. But the actuality is, that this, like so much legislation out there, is just a power play. This is designed to cozy up to Latino voters in 2012. This bill has been kicking around since what? 2001? And it's had it's teeth kicked in almost every time.

After the mid-term election wake-up call that Democrats got, in addition to Obama's seemingly ineffectual administration as compared to what was promised, they know damned well that the only way to win in 2012 is to get as many voters as possible. This means Latinos.

Bottom line is, we should NOT be rewarding law breakers. I've offered my ideas up for a conditional amnesty and I think that makes more sense than this DREAM shit. And that's another fundamental issue here, this bill is an attempt to provide an "easier" path to citizenship. Ha! Have you read the requirements? Of the whopping 65,000 illegal immigrant highschool graduates, how many do you think are going to actively *try* to get on this path? And of the ones who do, how many will actually succeed? My estimation is not ....ing many. The burden of proof for these people is on THEM. That's the way the bill is currently written. They have to "prove" that they were here at such and such a time, living here since then, and "Good Moral Character"? Are you ....ing kidding me? How ambiguous are they going to get with that?

All that means in practice is that the person hasn't been *caught* doing anything wrong. Not that they're some stellar, upstanding citizen-in-training. Oh sure, some illegal immigrants are peace abiding, but none of them are law abiding, for if they were, they wouldn't be breaking the law when they come to our ....ing country. They'd stand in line like millions of others and wait their ....ing turn.

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by synrgy

If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:

PolitiFact | Fact-checking attacks on the DREAM Act

Thanks for posting this! I really appreciate it!

[willy petro]

Originally Posted by orb451

First, I love ya too Adam

Second, let's be realistic and honest here, this bill is designed to help Latino immigrants. The students/immigrants coming here on work visas from India and Europe aren't sneaking in on American Airline flights. They represent the tiniest sliver of people that this bill is aimed at.

This bill is aimed squarely at Latino immigrants from Central and South America because they represent the *bulk* of our illegal immigration problem. The problem is a severe disparity between our country and our closest neighbor to the South, Mexico. They have let their country be overtaken with corruption at almost every level of government in addition to their drug cartel problems.

An almost unending cycle of poverty is what drives them out of their country. It's not the "free" market that we "preach" or some Leftist propaganda that brings them here. They have no future, or a dim one, in their own country. Now contrast their living situation to ours. Our poor live like kings compared to theirs. And while our government may be a bunch of thieving bastards at times, the corruption in ours is vastly different than theirs.

This contrast is not a slight on them, just an observation. If that means I'm a racist, oh ....ing well. So with this disparity, I'm not at all surprised that Mexicans are leaving their country en mass to come here for better opportunities. I only take issue with treating them *better* than our own citizens.

They are here illegally. The proponents simply argue that they have no choice in the matter. That they are the victims. Thus, they should be REWARDED for breaking the law, or they should be rewarded because their parents broke the law. That's just laughable to me. Flat out laughable.

So we reward law breakers, is that how this country works now? We reward bad behavior. Oh that's right, it's because they didn't know, or didn't have a choice in the matter. Read the Wiki article to start with, it says in there:

An estimated 65,000 illegal immigrant students[18] graduate from high school each year.[19] However, it is not known how many of those were eligible go on to complete the further requirements. It is estimated that only 7,000–13,000 college students nationally can fulfill the further obligations.

65,000 illegal immigrant students graduate each year. 65,000? That's pathetic. And of those, again, going by Wiki's numbers, 7,000-13,000 are able to fulfill the obligations if this was enacted? We're passing this bill to help a few thousand people? Really? No. They're trying to pass this bill in 2012 because it's an election year and the Democrats know that Latinos will flock to them like moths to a flame if they make their rounds, shaking hands and acting as though they're on the side of illegal immigrants.

I've seen the same thing happen just in this last Gubernatorial election here in California. All the Left leaning candidates were condemning SB1070 in Arizona, supporting the boycotts, waving their arms around like they actually gave a shit about Latinos. And the Right leaning candidates were the opposite, until Meg Whitman won in the primaries. Then she flip-flopped and suddenly wasn't so tough on illegal immigrants.

If you folks on the Left can't see what your leadership is trying to do with this bill, I feel sorry for you. Truly sorry. At the ground level, I can see why you think this is such a great idea. Why it seems like at face value to just "help" the poor law-breakers. But the actuality is, that this, like so much legislation out there, is just a power play. This is designed to cozy up to Latino voters in 2012. This bill has been kicking around since what? 2001? And it's had it's teeth kicked in almost every time.

After the mid-term election wake-up call that Democrats got, in addition to Obama's seemingly ineffectual administration as compared to what was promised, they know damned well that the only way to win in 2012 is to get as many voters as possible. This means Latinos.

Bottom line is, we should NOT be rewarding law breakers. I've offered my ideas up for a conditional amnesty and I think that makes more sense than this DREAM shit. And that's another fundamental issue here, this bill is an attempt to provide an "easier" path to citizenship. Ha! Have you read the requirements? Of the whopping 65,000 illegal immigrant highschool graduates, how many do you think are going to actively *try* to get on this path? And of the ones who do, how many will actually succeed? My estimation is not ....ing many. The burden of proof for these people is on THEM. That's the way the bill is currently written. They have to "prove" that they were here at such and such a time, living here since then, and "Good Moral Character"? Are you ....ing kidding me? How ambiguous are they going to get with that?

All that means in practice is that the person hasn't been *caught* doing anything wrong. Not that they're some stellar, upstanding citizen-in-training. Oh sure, some illegal immigrants are peace abiding, but none of them are law abiding, for if they were, they wouldn't be breaking the law when they come to our ....ing country. They'd stand in line like millions of others and wait their ....ing turn.

I love you orb! You think exactly like me! Thanks for posting man!

[orb451]

Originally Posted by synrgy

If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:

PolitiFact | Fact-checking attacks on the DREAM Act

I really don't understand how this will help people "get their facts straight" as it clearly has a Left leaning slant. And that's something else I've never understood. People balk at Fox, and apparently The Huffington Post and whatever else is out there that gets labeled as "Right Wing Media" and yet, whenever something is presented in the other direction, it always has just as much, if not more, slant.

Citing a few Republican blurbs, two false and one "barely true" and I'm supposed to automatically say "oh hey, *these* guys are giving me the straight story"? I don't think so. They're clearly proponents of the bill. They *try* to present the facts, but then ruin it with their own counter-jab at the Right. Why for the love of Christ, would you not just present the facts as they are? I mean as a media and/or journalism outlet?

[Origin]

Originally Posted by orb451

Quoting this whole thing would kind of make me a dick, but basically the long-ass post

Completely agreed.