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Unread 10-26-2010, 12:28 PM   #51
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I'll agree to that... Some countries DO actually function better under communism based on the history and thinking of the people. But corruption is the problem with every country. I'll ever agree that the haves and the have nots thing is a problem here in the states as well. If a person other than myself or my own family could be trusted to look out for my best interests I'd be for bigger government. Even world government. But name one... Just ONE government that has never fallen prey to the Haves. Now with that track record... As long as there is some kind of power to be consolidated, there will be people to consolidate it. That's why I'm an anarchist. Free access to self empowerment by any means. Not that I don't regulate that with a personal code of morals.
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Unread 10-26-2010, 04:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaeon View Post
Behringer city is a walled city dedicated to mfg. Behringer products. You aren't allowed to leave the city to see your family but 1 or 2 days per year. The rest of your time is spent as a captive labourer. It's disgusting. You can't leave to see what motivates you to work hard, and they aren't allowed within the walls of the city. Evidently, family is now a barricade to productivity.

I don't buy Behringer.
Could you provide a citation for this? I did some searching and couldn't find any information that resembled this post.
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Unread 10-26-2010, 05:35 PM   #53
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It's something that a couple co-workers and I stumbled upon many years ago while working at GC. Unfortunately, I don't remember where we stumbled across the information due to the fact that it was a long time ago and I've drank a few too many beers since then.
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Unread 10-27-2010, 05:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thaeon View Post
It's something that a couple co-workers and I stumbled upon many years ago while working at GC. Unfortunately, I don't remember where we stumbled across the information due to the fact that it was a long time ago and I've drank a few too many beers since then.
What a great and reliable citation.

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Note that it is a first for me to see such a discussion not going down with moronic arguments and insults after three posts in a mostly american forum, congratulations.
Ok, .... you. If you were to actually do some reading on the subject at hand you would find that many leading political theorists/scientists in our day are in fact American.
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Unread 10-27-2010, 06:54 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by bostjan View Post
I also remember a story a few months ago, but I can't remember the link, about workers at Chinese KFC's demanding they be paid more than $130/month. I cannot imagine trying to support a family on that sort of wage, not to mention in the fastest developing country in the world.
Not to argue that they are getting ....ed, but that $130 goes farther there than it does here. We have an incredibly high cost of living here in the States.

That being said, no, the real goal of Communism is in perfect contradistinction to it's stated goals, a la the Communist Manifesto. Communism has as it's sole purpose the enforcement of the position of the Bourgeois (the Illuminati, or whatever the hell you want to call them) over the Proletarian (everyone else, including us).

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Unread 10-27-2010, 06:56 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by silentrage View Post
China is not communist, once you get that out of your system you might start to comprehend the situation.
China is just as Communist as every other nation in the world, like the U.S. or Canada.

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Unread 10-27-2010, 07:23 PM   #57
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China is just as Communist as every other nation in the world, like the U.S. or Canada.
Wow... We actually agree on something...

China has some pretty capitalist things going on... The problems with this system are the inevitable dictatorial leaders who come to power or overthrew the previous gov't. But as an American I actually choose to spend my money with people/companies that don't support the nations/businesses I don't agree with.
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Unread 10-28-2010, 12:18 AM   #58
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What'll really get to you is when you realise that boycotting certain brands is pointless, and that ultimately your wealth is a direct result of the exploitation of others.
Depending on whether you use exploitation as a neutral verb, I may or may not agree with you.

To exploit can mean to take full use of, or it can mean to use in an unfair way.

The former I personally do not find myself at, as I've not expanded my wealth nearly as much as I think possible. The latter, while mostly true, is not without obvious exception. If, for example, I purchase a custom guitar, from a lone guitar builder, he and I have agreed to trade money (if there be such a thing) for the products of his labor. He can always choose to decline the transaction, therefore, if he believes himself to be unfairly used by my purchase, it will not occur.

Now if we can consciously make these decisions about everyday purchases such as food, fuel and likewise, we can grow the non-exploitation market, shrinking the exploitation market in the process.

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Unread 10-28-2010, 12:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Thaeon View Post
Wow... We actually agree on something...

China has some pretty capitalist things going on... The problems with this system are the inevitable dictatorial leaders who come to power or overthrew the previous gov't. But as an American I actually choose to spend my money with people/companies that don't support the nations/businesses I don't agree with.
I didn't mean it quite that way... Modern American Capitalism is the Communist ideal incarnate, by my current estimation.

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Unread 10-28-2010, 12:24 AM   #60
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Reality is this... There are slaves there are guards and there are wardens in ALL systems. There is no perfect system executed perfectly as there are no perfect people. There are no situations without external influence in our world. Therefore, socialism is a flawed system. So the question remains... Who do you want to be? The prisoner, the guard or the warden?
I reject your reality sir, and substitute my own. And in the famous tradition of James T. Kirk, I write in my own option: "Other".

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Unread 10-28-2010, 12:37 AM   #61
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I think it's more that there's very little the exploited can do. The ruling classes will do anything to keep themselves on top, and overlook the hardships of many to fulfil the lives of few. The working man really doesn't have any kind of voice at all. And anyone capable of being that voice is given entry to the bourgeoisie and thus their passion/need for revolution or change is suppressed.
The working man does indeed have a voice, if only he chose to use it and speak up. While we do exist within a Communism, we still have—at least within the supposedly "free" nations in North America and Western Europe—some choice in the products we choose to consume.

Vote with your dollars, or pounds, or marks, what-have-you. Try to preach the gospel of non-exploitation to others, wherever you find a willing ear.

Treat government in the same manner—should they exploit anyone—by reducing to the bare minimum the percentage of your labor which is compensated in a taxable currency.

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Unread 10-28-2010, 01:03 AM   #62
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Just FYI Thaeon, my comments may come off as supporting Communism, but I'm an Anarchist myself. I just had a profound epiphany a few months ago on the current state of our world.

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Unread 10-28-2010, 02:29 AM   #63
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Yeah... I was raised by a couple right wingers... One especially crazy. I ended up an Anarchist as well. Anarcho-capitalist anyway... I'm not a fan of mandates telling me how to spend my money or how to live. I recently came to the realization that money and power are really the same thing. If we can start seeing money as an exchange of power for services/goods we'll be better off... Especially since it will allow us to look at Corporate business men and politicians as they are... Men trying to consolidate power. Politicians selling the public out for money and social influence and business men buying political influence to help them amass more money/power. They less law we have supporting this process the better. The less law we have the better in general.
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Unread 10-28-2010, 08:26 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atomic Ass View Post
Not to argue that they are getting ....ed, but that $130 goes farther there than it does here. We have an incredibly high cost of living here in the States.
I never said that the cost of living was the same there as it is here, but that raises a whole new point. Why is the cost of living low or high? There are many factors that determine cost of living. Two of the big ones are: Quality of Life and Gross National Product. The higher the QoL, the higher the cost of living, pure and simple. If I wanted to live in a cave eating spiders, I could live a decently long amount of time, but the quality of life would suck. The higher the GNP, the more readily available good are where I live, and thus, the lower the cost of living. Although other factors are involved, the GNP of the USA is still higher than that of China by at least two fold, which points to the standard of living as a major culprit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the atomic ass
That being said, no, the real goal of Communism is in perfect contradistinction to it's stated goals, a la the Communist Manifesto. Communism has as it's sole purpose the enforcement of the position of the Bourgeois (the Illuminati, or whatever the hell you want to call them) over the Proletarian (everyone else, including us).
I suppose the same could be said, on some level, for any actual form of government versus the ideal of what that form of government should be. To me, it seems as though this particular example is taken to the extreme. I mean, it's one thing to complain about the situation, but for workers to actively commit suicide over work conditions, when the government itself came to power as a result of a revolution brought about because of work conditions, it is a whole new level of painful and very unfortunate irony.

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Unread 10-28-2010, 12:57 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by bostjan View Post
I never said that the cost of living was the same there as it is here, but that raises a whole new point. Why is the cost of living low or high? There are many factors that determine cost of living. Two of the big ones are: Quality of Life and Gross National Product. The higher the QoL, the higher the cost of living, pure and simple.
Not always true, unless your QoL gauge is how many "things" you have. Buddhist monks probably would rate their QoL very high, and I believe the "cost" of living to be quite low, relatively.

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If I wanted to live in a cave eating spiders, I could live a decently long amount of time, but the quality of life would suck. The higher the GNP, the more readily available good are where I live, and thus, the lower the cost of living. Although other factors are involved, the GNP of the USA is still higher than that of China by at least two fold, which points to the standard of living as a major culprit.
I was under the impression it was much closer to ten-fold... No longer the case?

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