US Intelligence Analyst Arrested - From Collateral Murder Video

[orb451]

Some of you probably remember the Collateral Murder video that WikiLeaks and others posted (here and in the news). It showed a helicopter attack in Iraq. Whether or not that was "justified" is NOT what I hope this thread will revolve around.

Anyway, the guy that leaked the video, and apparently other information to WikiLeaks has been caught and arrested. He's in PC over in Kuwait and hasn't been charged yet:

U.S. Intelligence Analyst Arrested in Wikileaks Video Probe | Threat Level | Wired.com

And the FULL VIDEO (NSFW):

The 'Full Version' of The Wikileaks Video Is Missing 30 Minutes of Footage

Note that there is some debate as to whether or not WikiLeaks version was edited. The link above is to the all the footage, unedited and uncut.

While on one hand I think it's good that people speak up when they believe there is wrong-doing, be it in the military or anywhere, on the other hand, this guy was trusted with state secrets and access to classified information as part of his job. Therefore, while possibly altruistic in his intentions, he still broke the rules of his job and most likely federal law as well and thus, should be punished.

I guess my thing is, in such a precarious situation, I would think there would be another way to bring attention to the issue while still doing your job and following the chain of command. And if not, maybe it's best that he look for another line of work.

[Customisbetter]

Did he break a law?

yes.

Ok put him in jail.

Case closed.

[Randy]

Depends really. It's hard balancing keeping sensitive information safe and still protecting whistle blowers. Something about jailing this guy does vibe right with me completely, though...

[orb451]

In the Wired article at least, he was ratted out by another hacker (Lamo). I'd have to question his intentions a bit. Seems like he was trying to "do the right thing" and at the same time wanted to see the whole house come crashing down too, Manning that is, not Lamo. And running your mouth about committing crimes online to someone you don't know makes it seem all the more like he's just a slightly misguided idiot.

[pink freud]

Releasing classified material is a bad thing, but it becomes blurred when the possibility arises that the material was classified because it makes somebody look bad, as opposed to actually being vital for security.

If this was classified because somebody just wanted to cover their ass, I think the dude did the right thing.

[Randy]

Agreed and agreed.

However, paralleling the thread over on MG.org about being illegal to videotape the police... the means of exposing corruption or even perceived corruption comes into question. Nixon Tapes, etc. probably never would've seen the light of day if there was a blanket mindset that people shouldn't even be given the option to see certain things. The video in question was old enough that it wasn't really sensitive information any longer, so there wasn't a lot of danger there.

If you follow the legislation listed throughout this article: Whistleblower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia it paints a pretty clear picture that even if this guy's efforts may have been biased or his means of retrieving the information were questionable, there is value in exposing something if you think it isn't just.

EDIT: Ninja'd by pink

[orb451]

I think the line is further blurred by the fact that it's an ongoing conflict and to my knowledge, the troops involved are/were still serving in active duty. In other words, I think the reason for it being classified is a bit of both: covering someone's ass until a proper internal investigation is done AND protecting the lives and roles of servicemen.

EDIT: Also, the guy is trusted as part of his job with classified information, not just this video but a lot of other data. According to him anyway, over 250,000 of other bits of data that are/were leaked. There's GOT to be some way of bringing this sort of shades-o'-gray material to a superior's attention without doing what he did, or rather, doing what he did but doing it within the framework of his job/chain-of-command.

[Zugster]

Originally Posted by Customisbetter

Did he break a law?

yes.

Ok put him in jail.

Case closed.

Is it really so simple? ...when you have evidence of your govt committing a crime and actually killing innocents in our name?

[Explorer]

There's a reason for jury nullification.

Incidentally, given the many conspiracy theorists who claim people knew about 9/11 beforehand... if it really were known beforehand, is it really likely that there is nobody among the knowledgeable who came forward to leak information about it? It's amazing that every single one of them is a hardcore right-wing Bush supporter, and that there didn't happen to be a single Democrat among them who was willing to come forward... or even a single Republican with a conscience.

Wow! What are the odds?!

[technomancer]

Originally Posted by Zugster

Is it really so simple? ...when you have evidence of your govt committing a crime and actually killing innocents in our name?

When he released THOUSANDS of pieces of classified information? Yes it is that simple.

[Mexi]

he should be commended for making some state-sponsored atrocities seen by the public. on the other hand, he isn't above the law and should be punished accordingly really.

[ittoa666]

I still find it strange that anyone would become outraged about such a regular thing. Military protocol calls for the elimination of perceived threats, and that's what the pilots were doing. It's simple, Don't carry an object that resembles a weapon and gather in a city street in a militarized zone. It may seem barbaric and brutal, but this type of thing happens on a regular basis. The accidental killing of civilians has been going on since the dawn of man.

[AustinW90]

Yes, put him in jail. How dare he bring forth bullet-proof evidence of the military murdering innocent people and shooting at children. Off with his heroic, truth-exposing head!

[AustinW90]

Originally Posted by technomancer

When he released THOUSANDS of pieces of classified information? Yes it is that simple.

Classified information showing U.S. troops firing a children.

[AustinW90]

Originally Posted by ittoa666

I still find it strange that anyone would become outraged about such a regular thing. Military protocol calls for the elimination of perceived threats, and that's what the pilots were doing. It's simple, Don't carry an object that resembles a weapon and gather in a city street in a militarized zone. It may seem barbaric and brutal, but this type of thing happens on a regular basis. The accidental killing of civilians has been going on since the dawn of man.

What if China decided they don't like our government and invaded our country to perform a regime change?

The march on in, overthrow our government, kill a million of us, torture a bunch of us, and then put our cities under martial law and regularly shoot at innocent people with the justification that they believe we shouldn't be walking around in arbitrary forbidden zones in our own country.

The Pentagon is that invader in Iraq.

[AustinW90]

Originally Posted by Mexi

he should be commended for making some state-sponsored atrocities seen by the public. on the other hand, he isn't above the law and should be punished accordingly really.

No, the people responsible for the atrocities should be punished.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by AustinW90

No, the people responsible for the atrocities should be punished.

The people responsible for the "atrocities" were doing their jobs. Did you bother watching the full unedited 39 minute version that clearly shows them holding their fire when they can readily see that children are present?

What is so crystal clear to you in that video, obviously wasn't to the men serving that day. I love how the arm-chair quarterback peaceniks come crawling out of the woodwork every single time something happens over there. It's a war. Mistakes happen. Collateral damage happens.

If you want a separate thread to bitch and moan about the reasons for being in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, then make one. This thread is about ONE guy, that took upon himself to do what he thought was the right thing. In doing so, he went outside of his chain of command, training and security protocols. Noble or not, he needs to be punished and their internal security protocols and screening process needs an update.

[AustinW90]

Originally Posted by orb451

The people responsible for the "atrocities" were doing their jobs. Did you bother watching the full unedited 39 minute version that clearly shows them holding their fire when they can readily see that children are present?

What is so crystal clear to you in that video, obviously wasn't to the men serving that day. I love how the arm-chair quarterback peaceniks come crawling out of the woodwork every single time something happens over there. It's a war. Mistakes happen. Collateral damage happens.

If you want a separate thread to bitch and moan about the reasons for being in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, then make one. This thread is about ONE guy, that took upon himself to do what he thought was the right thing. In doing so, he went outside of his chain of command, training and security protocols. Noble or not, he needs to be punished and their internal security protocols and screening process needs an update.

1. They shoot up the van knowing there are kids in it, then later laugh about how "insurgents" shouldn't bring their kids to that area - shrugging off any responsibility for their actions.

2. "Arm-chair quarterback peaceniks" is a pretty retarded term. Arm-chair-quarterback is a term for people who support the war, want the war, but themselves won't actually put on the helmet and go into battle (Rush Limbaugh for example). I don't support the war, so I can't be an armchair quarterback or chicken hawk.

3. "The people responsible for the 'atrocities' were doing their jobs."

Yeah and the Nazi's shoving people into ovens were doing their jobs as well.

Sorry, but the "just following orders" excuse doesn't cut it.



If a regular guy got an armed helicopter, flew it over a local neighborhood, blew it up, and killed everyone there - he would rightly go down in history as sick and twisted mass murderer.

But that same act is some how perfectly fine as long as that guy is:

-a member of the military
-blowing up a neighborhood in a foreign country
-blowing up a neighborhood full of brown people
-is "just doing his job" or "just following orders" from somebody up the totem pole

[daemon barbeque]

At the last part of the video, they clearly shoot the second Hellfire as the civilians where passing by. No guns, no other weapons in sight. Over 1 million Iraqi civilians died already. I see that too many classified material have to be gathered!

[daemon barbeque]

Originally Posted by AustinW90

1. They shoot up the van knowing there are kids in it, then later laugh about how "insurgents" shouldn't bring their kids to that area - shrugging off any responsibility for their actions.

2. "Arm-chair quarterback peaceniks" is a pretty retarded term. Arm-chair-quarterback is a term for people who support the war, want the war, but themselves won't actually put on the helmet and go into battle (Rush Limbaugh for example). I don't support the war, so I can't be an armchair quarterback or chicken hawk.

3. "The people responsible for the 'atrocities' were doing their jobs."

Yeah and the Nazi's shoving people into ovens were doing their jobs as well.

Sorry, but the "just following orders" excuse doesn't cut it.



If a regular guy got an armed helicopter, flew it over a local neighborhood, blew it up, and killed everyone there - he would rightly go down in history as sick and twisted mass murderer.

But that same act is some how perfectly fine as long as that guy is:

-a member of the military
-blowing up a neighborhood in a foreign country
-blowing up a neighborhood full of brown people
-is "just doing his job" or "just following orders" from somebody up the totem pole

[orb451]

Originally Posted by AustinW90

1. They shoot up the van knowing there are kids in it, then later laugh about how "insurgents" shouldn't bring their kids to that area - shrugging off any responsibility for their actions.

What ....ing video are you watching? The one I've watched shows the van showing up at 7:41. The van is engaged at that time and is done by about 11:05. Shortly thereafter they confirm that there are 3-4 individuals in the van. At no point during the engagement do the pilots, gunner or ground troops say there are kids there. It's only AFTER, at 13:41 when ground troops relay that there was a kid in the van. At 17:22 you can hear ground troops report that they have 11 Iraqi KIAs and one child wounded. And you can hear the chopper gunner say "Ah damn. Oh well". He's not laughing about it. At 18:14 the gunner says "it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle". At 18:58 the gunner notes that one of the ground troops ran over a dead body (or appeared to), and laughs. Is that the laughing about kids in the van you're talking about? Funny how the laughter isn't about kids in the van. Funny how they report ONE little girl being wounded. Not a ....ing busload of them. You just keep right on ignoring the facts that don't support your opinion. It's not until 27:37 in the video that you learn there are TWO civilian children wounded when ground troops request an evac. There is no laughter. Hilarity does not ensue.

Originally Posted by AustinW90

2. "Arm-chair quarterback peaceniks" is a pretty retarded term. Arm-chair-quarterback is a term for people who support the war, want the war, but themselves won't actually put on the helmet and go into battle (Rush Limbaugh for example). I don't support the war, so I can't be an armchair quarterback or chicken hawk.

I don't give a shit if you think it's a retarded term or not. There's a lot more I could choose from to describe what you've essentially stated as your opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by AustinW90

3. "The people responsible for the 'atrocities' were doing their jobs."

Yeah and the Nazi's shoving people into ovens were doing their jobs as well.
Sorry, but the "just following orders" excuse doesn't cut it.
If a regular guy got an armed helicopter, flew it over a local neighborhood, blew it up, and killed everyone there - he would rightly go down in history as sick and twisted mass murderer.

Godwin's Law. Look it up. I didn't say they were just "following orders". Is that the extent of your knowledge of WWII or would you care to enlighten us further? Members of the military are paid to do a difficult job. Especially in a war zone. I'm not surprised that you don't support the war. You don't have to. What you should do is *learn* some more about how the world works before you start spouting off with rose-tinted glasses firmly fixed and clouding your vision. It's a war zone. Do you know what happened in the area where these reporters were walking in 20 minutes before the video? Or a few hours? No, you do not. But the soldiers on the ground sure did. And tell me, how ....ing smart is it to walk down the street side by side with armed militants? In a war zone? Not very. Oh wait, they were unarmed right? Oh but forget about what you actually see in the video of them holding weapons. Oh and forget about that about 1:23 in the video you can hear GROUND support relaying intel to the guys in the chopper about ARMED MEN congregating in the area. Just disregard those facts because it makes it look like the chopper gunners were bored. Had nothing better to do, and opted to start firing on people randomly. Also note that after the engagement at 19:20, GROUND TROOPS report an individual laying the ground with an RPG underneath him. Ooops. Was that a Nikon CoolPix camera? No. It was an RPG. As in Rocket Propelled Grenade in case you don't know.

Originally Posted by AustinW90

But that same act is some how perfectly fine as long as that guy is:

-a member of the military
-blowing up a neighborhood in a foreign country
-blowing up a neighborhood full of brown people
-is "just doing his job" or "just following orders" from somebody up the totem pole

Right, because atrocities in war should only be limited to one side, correct? It's perfectly OK to attack US troops as long as:

-you aren't wearing a uniform of any kind
-you hide explosives by the side of the road to kill your enemy
-you strap bombs on yourself and others in attempts to kill your enemy whilst simulatenously killing your own countrymen
-you hide out in mosques, schools and other areas usually designated for civilians
-you videotape yourselves beheading non-military personnel to further your cause
-you videotape yourself parading through the streets dragging the corpses of fallen enemies

So those things are OK, but any mistakes we make, are not? Is that your argument? .... me sideways you've got a warped perspective on life. Seriously. Grow up, read a bit more and maybe someday you'll figure out how the world actually works. Contrary to what you might think, the world and life in general are rough places. Hugs and kisses are not always doled out like candy.

Sometimes two people will disagree and sometimes that disagreement will turn into a physical fight. If you think for one second that wars are somehow going away, as in, not likely to continue on until the end of time, you're deluding yourself. As much as you may also believe that you and others that think like you are "above" everyone and everything else, especially when it comes to conflicts, you are wrong. You're animals just like the rest of us. We are all equally subject to the same primal instincts in times of immense stress (Fight or Flight). And we all deal with stress differently. Hearing laughter from the chopper gunners does not make me think badly of them. That's how they deal with their stress. Sometimes when I'm in traffic and someone cuts me off, I'll curse, and other times I'll laugh. And that's off the charts low, compared to the high level of stress that these people face on a regular basis.

Soldier's on the battlefield have an enormous amount of pressure put on them. Every. Single. Day. Yet it's so easy for you to dismiss anything and everything they do simply because you do not agree with it. Note, that I do NOT agree with everything the military does. Note that I believe when our troops are doing wrong, that they should be punished. However, having viewed this video several times, I see men doing their jobs. Their job is air support for ground troops. Their job also involves taking lives if necessary. In the course of DOING their jobs, if innocent civilians get hurt or killed, while truly unfortunate, that is just one cost of war. Are you so deluded to think that in a war, only the "bad" guys die? Mistakes happen, and as I said in the original thread about this, if it can be determined that they've made mistakes, then they need corrective action, more training, etc. If the mistakes are intentional or malicious and proved as such, then obviously they need to be punished.

You make it sound like the chopper gunner spots the kids in the van from the outset and starts laughing maniacally as he opens fire. Wrong.

Learn to get your facts straight.

And on-topic, as said before, this guy stole confidential data and distributed it. Not just one bit, apparently it's over 250,000 bits of it. However noble his intentions might have been, he broke protocols (possibly laws as well) and thus, should be punished, not rewarded.

[Customisbetter]

I agree with Orb.

Always.

[Mexi]

pressure or stress or whatever isn't reason to outright lie and withold information regarding the nature of what happens in these sorts of events. the right and wrong of the killing of civilians as collateral damage is irrelevant really, its really an issue that the public has a right to know of the reality of the war that is costing lives and billions of $ (as long as said information doesn't endanger the lives of those serving on the ground)

[Whiskey_Funeral]

I know this is off-topic, but God. That video depresses the hell out of me. It's so sad that humans do things like this to one another and it's kind of disturbing that we've created weapons so efficient at killing people. I know the soldiers were just doing their jobs and the dudes had it coming, but it's terrible that things like this happen in our world. It can kind of make you understand why people go ape shit and start strapping bombs to themselves over there (not that I condone that at all). You've really got to feel for the soldiers over there that are going to have to live the rest of their lives trying to cope with the fact that they've killed people, too. Their jobs or not, I don't think any amount of training can truly prepare someone to be able to deal with that on their own. It's just a really sad situation for everyone involved.

As far as the guy that leaked all of this information, I'm kind of undecided, but I think for the most part I'm leaning toward the fact that it's a good thing it has been leaked. Kind of skeptical about his intentions, though. If this was World War II and the guy ran around telling everyone about D-Day the week before it happened, I'd say he's a prick that deserves to be locked up. But this is a war that the majority of Americans are against and that the UN was against. Most Americans are probably oblivious to the kinds of things that are going on over there and hopefully the scrutiny from these incidents will be enough to force our government to bring our boys back home and stop all of this nonsense.

[synrgy]

..... I'm probably going to have to sound like a dirty tree hugging hippie on this one, and I apologize in advance..

Preface: I know very little about the fine points of this specific situation or the grander questions related to it, so the opinion I'm about to share is more of a macro-philosophical view. I am not intending to directly address this specific situation, and just want that to be clear at the outset.

Now then, the thing is, I agree with the sentiments of a lot of other people out there, which is to say that I truly believe that the more we expose of the realities of war, (the mistakes, the collateral damage, the demolition of entire cities, etc) the less likely future generations ought to be to find excuses to wage war in the first place. In our country especially -- 9/11 aside -- our generation has NO IDEA what it's like for war to be on our own soil. Just imagine for a moment, the image of wherever your home town is; turned to a pile of indistinguishable concrete rubble. That's a reality for people all over the globe who's countries/homes have played host to an invading force. Apart from 9/11 for us, or Pearl Harbor for folks a pinch older than us, Americans just have no idea how to relate to that concept whatsoever, and that's a problem considering how many places across the planet we have troops deployed.

Truly, I believe there should be a 24 hour network that just cuts from crew to crew all day, following military units and broadcasting completely uncensored live footage of whatever carnage they end up in. I think the reason the voting populous continues to allow it generation after generation really boils down to a lack of exposure to the true horror of it all. Sure, we've all seen Saving Private Ryan or whatever, but that's not the same thing at all.

With that perspective in mind, my position on this situation (or the very little that I understand of it) is that the guy who shared this footage publicly should be commended; not condemned. Then again, stepping outside of the philosophical box, I also believe that if a law was broken, the appropriate sentence needs to be issued.

Sorry I can't be more of a contributor here, but I just don't know enough to really weigh in beyond the philosophical standpoint.