Arizona becomes the Anti-immigrant gapital of the US

[Randy]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

Can you really compare the prescription drug black market, with that of the drugs coming from Central & South America?

I'm comparing the prescription drug black market to what a "legal" narcotic drug black market would look like in this country.

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

Last time I checked they weren't cutting people's heads off and putting them on pikes in Brooklyn, or setting off bombs in Central Park. The "mobsters" don't have paramilitary forces like the cartels.

I'd blame that on the lawlessness of Mexico. I don't think changing our policies here will change that.

[unitas]

Originally Posted by orb451

Well I for one see this law passing as a good thing. I'm an immigrant AND I'm Latino and I still think this is needed. Sure it's ripe for abuse, that's a given with just about any law. But it's Arizona's choice, the people spoke, or their elected officials did on their behalf. Something, anything, needs to be done with the Illegal Immigration issue. While this may seem a bit heavy handed, the times have called for a heavy handed solution.

No more pussy footing around the issue. Since opening up the border and providing amnesty isn't going to fly, you get this instead. Maybe at some point a better balance can be struck. The way I see it, illegal immigrants have no US rights. I don't give a flying .... if they're here already, in my mind they have no constitutional protection or special status other than breaking the law. They should be deported back to their country to wait at the end of the line like everyone else trying to get over here legitimately. There should be fewer roadblocks to becoming a citizen or permanent resident if you can prove:

1) You're willing to work for a living and not sit on your fat ....ing ass watching Springer, collecting food stamps and WIC benefits

2) You've proven you're willing and able to learn, speak, read and write English

3) You've proven that no greater than 10% of your monthly income will go right back across the border to help your ailing family/friends back in "insert country of origin here"

If they're willing to adhere to those 3 things, then by all means, come to our country. Other than that, .... off.

QFT.

And to the critics that have zero first-hand experience with why illegal immigration is such a problem, I suggest reading the bill and not taking soundbytes as actual legislation.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[unitas]

Originally Posted by gunshow86de

I don't think there is any racist agenda behind this. This law addresses a very serious issue. Sure, there will be legal immigrants and natural born Hispanic citizens who are questioned under suspicion, but so what? If you are here legally, then how hard is it to show a piece of paper to the officer?

It's not even that, a cop cannot question legal status unless the person broke the law first. He can't just walk up and demand ID solely because he thinks a person's here illegally. The person must have broken the law prior, THEN the officer can question legal status. No different than if a cop pulls someone over for swerving or speeding or running a red light and then asks if they've been drinking. The forms of ID that are sufficient as proof of legal status is a driver's license, ID card, military ID, passport, the "greencard", and work/travel/school visa's. Greencards and visa's are required by federal law to be carried on your person anyway. So this law doesn't require anyone to carry any extra ID than what you normally should carry anyway.

This law was to do away with Az's previous cacth and release policy. There was no punishment at all for breaking federal immigration law. Now it is required by law that illegals are turned over to ICE for deportation.

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by unitas

QFT.

And to the critics that have zero first-hand experience with why illegal immigration is such a problem, I suggest reading the bill and not taking soundbytes as actual legislation.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

How about critics that are also Sheriffs and Police Chiefs in Arizona? Maybe they should have read the bill first.

[unitas]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

How about critics that are also Sheriffs and Police Chiefs in Arizona? Maybe they should have read the bill first.

The sheriffs and police chiefs don't have zero experience with illegal immigration, only healthy doses of denial and political correctness.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

How about critics that are also Sheriffs and Police Chiefs in Arizona? Maybe they should have read the bill first.

Absolutely they should. What you're seeing are knee-jerk reactions based on the color of one's skin or the *possible* negative outcomes. If cops are worried about their lives they really ought to look into other lines of work. I think people are far too quick to jump on the "I'm brown, they're picking on me" bandwagon.

.... that shit. Man up. If you're here legally, you have nothing worry about. If you're not, maybe it's high time you got off your ass and did something about it instead of complaining, filing lawsuits and bitching like spoiled kids.

[unitas]

Originally Posted by orb451

Absolutely they should.

Precisely. I dunno how many know this but Az has over a $1.7bil deficit, and the largest deficit to spending ratio in America. It costs $1.3 bil per year for the education, medical care, and incarceration of illegal immigrants here. Police chiefs should definitely pay attention to this because part of the proposed budget cuts is laying off 350 police officers. My sister-in-law was laid off because of budget cuts to the DOT. How about instead of cutting public jobs like police, firefighters and teachers, we stop paying for illegals public benefits? That solves a huge portion of the problem of the deficit and I won't have to pay for benefits for people who pay nothing into it.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by unitas

Precisely. I dunno how many know this but Az has over a $1.7bil deficit, and the largest deficit to spending ratio in America. It costs $1.3 bil per year for the education, medical care, and incarceration of illegal immigrants here. Police chiefs should definitely pay attention to this because part of the proposed budget cuts is laying off 350 police officers. My sister-in-law was laid off because of budget cuts to the DOT. How about instead of cutting public jobs like police, firefighters and teachers, we stop paying for illegals public benefits? That solves a huge portion of the problem of the deficit and I won't have to pay for benefits for people who pay nothing into it.

Oh but we can't do that! The horror! That means someone won't be getting something for nothing anymore! Oh and their feelings will be hurt too!!

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by unitas

The sheriffs and police chiefs don't have zero experience with illegal immigration, only healthy doses of denial and political correctness.

Yes, I'm sure cops that are face to face with the illegal immigration problem in Arizona on a daily basis, some of them for decades, are against the law because they're in denial or to be politically correct.

Why did I even respond to your absurd post. Good grief.

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by orb451

I'm an immigrant and I'm Latino.my thoughts on the issue are that if you're going to come to this country you damned well better:

1. work
2. speak, read and write English
3. not send a great portion of your income right back across the border

I'm wondering how a Latino immigrant in the US ends up being that passionate about mandating immigrants to speak/read/write English.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

Yes, I'm sure cops that are face to face with the illegal immigration problem in Arizona on a daily basis, some of them for decades, are against the law because they're in denial or to be politically correct.

Why did I even respond to your absurd post. Good grief.

I'd say that any cop worried about how this law passing is suddenly going to turn those that are already breaking federal law, into red-eyed, frothing-at-the-mouth, anarchy-wreaking savages hell bent on killing as many cops as possible as equally absurd. Like I said, if they're worried about their own safety so much, they're in the wrong line of work.

I think the remainder of officers that oppose the law are either lazy and don't want to have to to do the paperwork needed to get people transferred to ICE or are Latino themselves and feel like this is somehow a show of solidarity.

When you've lived in a border state for a few years, get back to us and let us know how it worked out for you.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

I'm wondering how a Latino immigrant in the US ends up being that passionate about mandating immigrants to speak/read/write English.

It's simple. It's called doing the right ....ing thing. I wouldn't emigrate to Mexico or some other Spanish speaking country, try to become a citizen or resident and sit back and say "I want to continue speaking English, you all should have to learn MY language so I can communicate". To me that's insanely arrogant.

What I love about America is that it's a melting pot for many cultures. Part of that *melting* process is assimilation. Knowing where you're from, but NOT letting it dictate where you must go in life. Speaking two languages is a blessing, not a burden. The sooner the rest of these people take their prideful heads out of their asses and realize that, the better.

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by orb451

...red-eyed, frothing-at-the-mouth, anarchy-wreaking savages hell bent...

Could you write that up on a chalkboard for us?

Blame the cops for being lazy, blame the cops for being pussies, blame the people that cross the border for a better life... anything but blaming the the system in place that for all intents and purposes welcomes illegals into the country and gives them an income and a better quality of life as an illegal alien in the US than as a legal citizen of their own countries.

Let's just round em up and ship em out! Drill baby drill!

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

Could you write that up on a chalkboard for us?

Blame the cops for being lazy, blame the cops for being pussies, blame the people that cross the border for a better life... anything but blaming the the system in place that for all intents and purposes welcomes illegals into the country and gives them an income and a better quality of life as an illegal alien in the US than as a legal citizen of their own countries.

Let's just round em up and ship em out! Drill baby drill!

Dude, I'm not blaming the cops for being lazy, I'm speculating on the reasoning behind some of them opposing the law. See the distinction? I don't know them personally, I can't say what their *real* motives are. Because you agree with them, you feel it bolsters your argument that they're right, that the law is bad, or wrong. What about the cops that *do* support it?

What of them? Are they the insane ones? Are they wrong because they think it'll help? Are you saying every single cop in AZ are saying unanimously that it's wrong and therefore should be repealed? If so, I hadn't heard that bit of news yet.

And no, to be honest I don't blame the people that want a better life for themselves provided they (in my opinion, and if I had my way) did the three things I listed which by my estimation aren't even vaguely unreasonable. If they want a better life for themselves they should think before acting. Before taking the *easy* road, that has become so god damned easy because people will gladly let them leech off of our system. As I said, for every few that are here to actually work, contribute and make our society a better place, there are vast numbers of others who gladly think they're entitled to a better station in life simply because... well... that's how they feel. That sense of entitlement is wrong in my eyes.

Immigration is a big issue, if you think the answer is one law, repealed or not, or one bit of action, or inaction, you're wrong. This law is just making life tougher for law breakers, how anyone could be against that is beyond me. And moreover, if you want to fix immigration you take steps. This law is a step. Getting other states on-board and eventually forcing the fed to crackdown further is another step. Another one after that is cracking down on employers who exploit their labor. Another step will be legalizing drugs so the cartels won't have a nation by it's balls. Another step would be a cheap and easy path to legal citizenship, again (if I had my way) provided the prospective citizen could demonstrate their willingness to work, assimilate and not send every penny they get right back across the border.

But hey, if you think it's all black/white, republican mantra vs. democrat, that's your business.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

Could you write that up on a chalkboard for us?

Blame the cops for being lazy, blame the cops for being pussies, blame the people that cross the border for a better life... anything but blaming the the system in place that for all intents and purposes welcomes illegals into the country and gives them an income and a better quality of life as an illegal alien in the US than as a legal citizen of their own countries.

Let's just round em up and ship em out! Drill baby drill!

That's right, because the system is always solely at fault, and there's no such thing as personal, individual responsibility.

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by orb451

It's simple. It's called doing the right ....ing thing. I wouldn't emigrate to Mexico or some other Spanish speaking country, try to become a citizen or resident and sit back and say "I want to continue speaking English, you all should have to learn MY language so I can communicate". To me that's insanely arrogant.

What I love about America is that it's a melting pot for many cultures. Part of that *melting* process is assimilation. Knowing where you're from, but NOT letting it dictate where you must go in life. Speaking two languages is a blessing, not a burden. The sooner the rest of these people take their prideful heads out of their asses and realize that, the better.

A typical right wing position- ideals before people.

By offering multi-lingual support for immigrants, we are helping them 'assimilate'. If they choose to not learn English, there are significant drawbacks, but that is their choice. The vast majority learn at least some English. Many that learn some English also continue to primarily use their native language. Now what is un-American about the freedom to speak/read/write the language of your heritage, in public or in private?

[unitas]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

blame the people that cross the border for a better life...

I don't blame immigrants at all. Our country was founded on immigrants. I blame those that steal entry into this country thumbing their nose at the law and the people who persevered to get here legally and respect the law, and on top of it all I get more money taken from my paycheck as a result.

Everyone has the right to leave their country to seek a better life somewhere else, but it is the destination country's prerogative whether or not to receive them.

You should look at Mexico's immigration laws and then tell me with a straight face Az is too cruel.

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

That's right, because the system is always solely at fault, and there's no such thing as personal, individual responsibility.

Is providing and making a better life for your family and loved ones not an individual responsibility?

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

A typical right wing position- ideals before people.

By offering multi-lingual support for immigrants, we are helping them 'assimilate'. If they choose to not learn English, there are significant drawbacks, but that is their choice. The vast majority learn at least some English. Many that learn some English also continue to primarily use their native language. Now what is un-American about the freedom to speak/read/write the language of your heritage, in public or in private?

In the privacy of their own homes, there is nothing wrong with them speaking their native language(s).

What is un-American about them doing it in public is assuming that you don't need to learn the native language of the country you're living in! My example stands. If I moved to Russia, I would expect to learn Russian. I would not ask for, or expect any handouts from the government in finding my way through life over there. Likewise, if I moved to Mexico, I would expect to learn Spanish. It's called survival. It's called common sense. By offering multi-lingual support for immigrants ad nauseum we've just given them a crutch to fall back on (which they have) and thus made things more difficult in the long for them and us.

Imagine for a second what it was like on Ellis Island when millions of Europeans from all these different countries came over to America. Imagine if your idea had been in place as far as speaking the language goes. It would have been a cluster.... of epic proportions. Someone, somewhere, however Evil they might have been, decided "hey, this is America, we speak English here, ....ING LEARN IT" and you know what? They learned it.

As to your comment about "typical right wing position" comment goes, you don't know me, let's leave it at that.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

Is providing and making a better life for your family and loved ones not an individual responsibility?

Again, not when you're choosing to break the law to do it. Not when you rely on someone's government to speak your language, pay for your medical care, pay for your food, pay for your housing, etc.

Not every immigrant from Mexico is trying to move here illegally. I personally know several that are jumping through hoops to do it legally, the right way and I support them fully in staying on the up and up. Are they expected to continue to let others cut in front of them in lines they've been waiting in for literally years, just because?

[Krullnar]

Originally Posted by unitas

I don't blame immigrants at all. Our country was founded on immigrants. I blame those that steal entry into this country thumbing their nose at the law and the people who persevered to get here legally and respect the law, and on top of it all I get more money taken from my paycheck as a result.

How many parents will be deported back to Mexico with their children still in the US? What if that illegal immigrant is just doing what he/she knows to do to get by in the US, and is a decent good person with loved ones here that are legal citizens, but is deported from Arizona back to Mexico leaving a broken family? What if that illegal immigrant was the breadwinner? How do you resolve the human, ethical issue here?

I can't. There has to be a better way than a police round up for deportation.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

How many parents will be deported back to Mexico with their children still in the US? What if that illegal immigrant is just doing what he/she knows to do to get by in the US, and is a decent good person with loved ones here that are legal citizens, but is deported from Arizona back to Mexico leaving a broken family? What if that illegal immigrant was the breadwinner? How do you resolve the human, ethical issue here?

I can't. There has to be a better way than a police round up for deportation.

They should have thought about that before they decided to break the law.

Breaking a law (any law) has repercussions.

[orb451]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

How many parents will be deported back to Mexico with their children still in the US? What if that illegal immigrant is just doing what he/she knows to do to get by in the US, and is a decent good person with loved ones here that are legal citizens, but is deported from Arizona back to Mexico leaving a broken family? What if that illegal immigrant was the breadwinner? How do you resolve the human, ethical issue here?

I can't. There has to be a better way than a police round up for deportation.

A close friend of mine is in that EXACT situation. He's a citizen, 100% legal. His wife was here illegally. She had several kids. They applied for citizenship and she got deported back to Mexico. She's living over there right now, waiting patiently for her paperwork to clear. He's the breadwinner of the family and remained here with the kids, but they did go and stay with her for a while and he does make regular visits.

It's a shit sandwich. There's no easy way around it. But he's doing what he needs to, to get her back over here quickly and legally. If I had known him back in the day, or anyone else I meet in the future, I'd definitely recommend to them NOT having kids if they're here illegally for innumerable reasons. Not the least of which is the scenario above. But what's done is done.

So what's your solution then? Amnesty for all? Let the people like my friend that have waited months and spent their hard earned money pissed away because someone waves their wand and *poof* it's suddenly legal for everyone and anyone to become a citizen? That's a nice kick in the balls there. What were you saying about ideals before people again???

[unitas]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

They should have thought about that before they decided to break the law.

Breaking a law (any law) has repercussions.

+1

[gunshow86de]

Originally Posted by Krullnar

A typical right wing position- ideals before people.

By offering multi-lingual support for immigrants, we are helping them 'assimilate'. If they choose to not learn English, there are significant drawbacks, but that is their choice. The vast majority learn at least some English. Many that learn some English also continue to primarily use their native language. Now what is un-American about the freedom to speak/read/write the language of your heritage, in public or in private?

It's not a right wing position, it's a common sense position. You can't function in a society if you are unable to communicate with other people. If you don't want to assimilate into a society, then don't move there.

And for the record, I'm no where near right-wing.