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Unread 03-11-2010, 02:56 PM   #26
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Since when did God need the Polish government to punish people for him and decide what is and what's not offensive to thier religion?

LOL
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ry_z View Post
Entirely putting aside the legal question for the moment:



To put it bluntly - so what?

I ask this not specifically because of a dislike of Christianity, but in defense of free speech. (Nergal's action certainly counts as speech, in this context. It was merely symbolic - he didn't burn a historic church or something like that, which would be indefensible.)

People must not have the right not to be offended. Otherwise, free speech is impossible.
Too many abuse the right of free speech. As I said, if he had said his opinions in a respectable way, then this would be a different story. But he hasn't, he has used his freedom of speech and abused that right to upset people. Now the Church does it too, and thats wrong also.

Free speech is possible, but then by this logic, I'm allowed to spout whatever shit I want free of persecution, and I'm sorry but people should be accountable for what they say or do.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by vampiregenocide View Post
It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.

I always compare the bible to Star Wars. In this case, I will be comparing the bible to Star Wars.

To destroy a story is rather simple, but obviously there are certain legacies carried on. When George Lucas created "Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace", he was in Nergal's position; in front of a large crowd of people, ripping and shitting all over a great fictional story. There are enough people so stuck up on Star Wars in this world, that it is now "slightly" recognized as a religion. People are in love with the tales of the Skywalkers, the Wookies, and even those little bastard Ewoks on Endore. When Episode 1 was released in theaters, millions of devout "Jedi" (or however the .... I'm supposed to phrase that) were completely crushed.

Now, did Geroge Lucas serve two years in jail for ripping apart his bible on his stage at his show? No. The crime will forever go unpunished... but wait... he can't serve jail time... it's a fictional story! Not to mention his own story, but let's not get into that. Now, you might hate me for insulting the bible in these two paragraphs, but mind you, Jesus and pals have enough proof of their existance as a T16 shooting womprats in Tatuine.

This has been another installment of Serrated Skies' "Come on dude, Star Wars was so much better."

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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:12 PM   #29
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Should this thread be moved to Off Topic or The Lounge? I dont want it to get closed since it's in General Music Discussion.

And so what if something someone did was distasteful? Tastes' are opinions. I don't think it was distasteful. He's putting on a show and part of the show was ripping a Bible up. It's the shock value and the overall expierence. If I'm going to see Behmoth, you're damn right I want to see some shit like that. And as long as it is not physically harming anybody then it is OK in my book. Now yeah, I guess it's against the law in Poland to do that, but Poland having that law is just blasphemy in itself!

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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:14 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by vampiregenocide View Post
Free speech is possible, but then by this logic, I'm allowed to spout whatever shit I want free of persecution, and I'm sorry but people should be accountable for what they say or do.
No, you should be allowed to spout whatever shit you want free of the fear of being silenced. If other people want to condemn/ostracize you for what you say, it's their place to do so. (Socially, that is. Violent persecution is obviously unacceptable.) But (as far as I'm concerned) it's not the place of governments to enforce these things.

This is why I can't support things like hate speech laws, even being a member of a group that's on the receiving end of quite a bit of hateful speech.

To use a quote from The West Wing: "Knowing that the National Enquirer can print whatever it wants is the only way I can know that the New York Times can print whatever it wants."

The same argument applies here. Knowing that anyone can say what they think is the only way that you can know that you can say what you think. It means that you have to put up with people saying things you don't agree with, but that's a necessary cost.

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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Remus View Post
Since when did God need the Polish government to punish people for him and decide what is and what's not offensive to thier religion?

LOL
Since the Polish government decided they should believe a giant invisible spaceman.

From a philosophical view, I can't understand organized religion. There are far better ways to explain our universe now, but people still cling to a system based on superstition and ritual. However, there are people that are quite close to me with whom I have had disagreements on religion, and we ended up realizing that I never contemplate divinity, as I can explain anything with observable evidence and testable hypotheses (or, if I can't, I can look it up), and they couldn't think of the universe without wondering if there was some mysterious cosmic overlord in charge of it all. In other words, I don't ask myself "Is there a god?". That seems to be the main difference between theists and empiricists, in my experience. I don't worry about it, I sleep better at night. Everybody should do their self a favor and take a couple classes in geography and astronomy.

Now, as Poland has been Catholic since it was hip, I don't think they're going to change and let Nergal go. It does suck, but there are many unreasonable governments in the world. What bothers me is that they have a law that allows somebody to be arrested if they hurt somebody else's feelings - even if it is entirely indirect, and dependent on the victim's interpretation. Wow, let's lock up every twelve-year-old in Poland. Of course, I'm sure that there is a huge double standard here. I'd like to see Nergal try to bring charges against the publisher of that particular book he tore.



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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:21 PM   #32
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It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.

Religion and race have caused almost all of that tension by simply existing in the first place. Almost every single conflict in any society that has ever existed was/is/will be based on the dogmas associated with any combination of opposing beliefs, or the ideals associated with them. It will never end, and that sucks, but that is simply just 'how it is'.

Take your statement for example... 'He was being offensive and broke the law.' In his mind - what he did was justified based on his personal beliefs and his having the intent of speaking out against the beliefs of 'the majority'. Whether or not it is against a law, the fact that his country put this law into effect is a sign that they absolutely will not tolerate the beliefs of others regardless of what they may be. This, to me, is the greater crime of the two in the first place. If everyone were to abide by these laws, no progress would ever be made to create a more open-minded and accepting world, and would also allow their government even more freedom to abuse their power and impose their will on the people.

I'm not trying to put you down in any way, so please don't take this as an insult...I'm just pointing out that the law he broke should not exist in the first place, and the fact that it does is more offensive, when you consider it's nature and purpose, than what Nergal did on pretty much every level.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:21 PM   #33
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pretty retarded on both ends
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:22 PM   #34
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I'm just going to agree to completely disagree with everyone.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:25 PM   #35
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Religion and race have caused almost all of that tension by simply existing in the first place. Almost every single conflict in any society that has ever existed was/is/will be based on the dogmas associated with any combination of opposing beliefs, or the ideals associated with them. It will never end, and that sucks, but that is simply just 'how it is'.

Take your statement for example... 'He was being offensive and broke the law.' In his mind - what he did was justified based on his personal beliefs and the intent of speaking out against the beliefs of others. Whether or not it is against a law, the fact that his country put this law into effect is a sign that they absolutely will not tolerate the beliefs of others regardless of what they may be. This, to me, is the greater crime of the two in the first place. If everyone were to abide by these laws, no progress would ever be made to create a more open-minded and accepting world, and would also allow their government even more freedom to abuse their power and impose their will on the people.

I'm not trying to put you down in any way, so please don't take this as an insult...I'm just pointing out that the law he broke should not exist in the first place, and the fact that it does is more offensive, when you consider it's nature and purpose, than what Nergal did on pretty much every level.
Oh I hate organised religion don't get me wrong, but it exists, simple fact. And we have to deal with that and try to get along. Laws shouldn't need to dictate this sort of thing, but humans are unforgiving and can't respect each other, so they have to be. Its a mess but hey.

EDIT - Shit forgot double post merge was gone.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:29 PM   #36
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Of course. Everyone should go to jail for detesting god.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:38 PM   #37
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omg, let's go rip Harry Potter book apart and hope not to get jailed

The whole image is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love. That's the message we're brought up with, isn't it? Believe or die! Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:41 PM   #38
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This sounds like the news from the villiage paper if it was ....ing 1200bc. rediculous.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:41 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vampiregenocide View Post
I'm just going to agree to completely disagree with everyone.

Imagine being told you couldn't...and that it was against the law. What would you do/say in that situation?

I know....I'm a smartass. I'm just saying...I really don't believe Nergal is 100% right in what he did, but the government isn't right for putting laws in place to protect religion either. It's just a shitty situation all around.

Anyone can go on about personal beliefs and what they feel is morally right and wrong from any angle they choose, but in the end...it's all just personal belief and opinion...and can/will be argued by others for all eternity. Even my own are flawed in many views...but like I said before, that's just 'how it is'.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:43 PM   #40
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I'm a christian, and while I actually do take a offense to this, the punishment is unbefitting of the crime.

Having said that, if what he's attacking is the Catholic church, than surely there are more appropriate symbols to destroy that are more representative of the things he hates about the church. Believe in Christ or not, the words "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone," are printed in that book. Those are words of wisdom no matter where you come from, and by destroying a bible, he shows disdain for anything positive it contains as well as anything negative.

Having said that, I honestly don't know what the people who've brought this matter forward are hoping to accomplish. Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," so they have no more claim to 'righteousness' than Nergal.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:43 PM   #41
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Loving people's comments, peaceful versions of my argument props and rep to you all, and MrMcSick, I ....ing love you for putting that.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:53 PM   #42
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Here is a video of the said incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrvv0...layer_embedded

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Unread 03-11-2010, 03:59 PM   #43
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Here is a video of the said incident

....People are honestly pissed about THAT? A panda freak ripping up a book.

How ....ing bored are the courts...I guess there's no murderers or rapists for them to focus on, shit, must be a peaceful country.

Don't take the panda freak comment too seriously - I'm a huge Dimmu fan - but to get pissed off first you have to lend a Kabuki actor credibility which I just can't do.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:02 PM   #44
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by no means should he go to jail but i can't help but laugh at how retarded this whole thing is. i mean look at his costume and makeup and shit.. he looks ridiculous. destroying bibles? who is he, an angst-filled 17 year old that just discovered atheism and is pissed off at his christian parents? i'm not religious by any means whatsoever, but come on. people take this stuff way too seriously. i despise a lot of things about religion but i don't waste my time being an idiot and pretending to be some significant anti-religion lieutenant with makeup on.

but above all, he shouldn't be going to jail for that.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:06 PM   #45
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Of course. Everyone should go to jail for detesting god.
No ones saying that, but if you detest God (which means you believe in him), then just be aware that how you show that anger can upset others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6o66er View Post
Imagine being told you couldn't...and that it was against the law. What would you do/say in that situation?

I know....I'm a smartass. I'm just saying...I really don't believe Nergal is 100% right in what he did, but the government isn't right for putting laws in place to protect religion either. It's just a shitty situation all around.

Anyone can go on about personal beliefs and what they feel is morally right and wrong from any angle they choose, but in the end...it's all just personal belief and opinion...and can/will be argued by others for all eternity. Even my own are flawed in many views...but like I said before, that's just 'how it is'.
Ah thats different, I'm saying my opinion in a completely non-hostile, respectful way. Burning holy items isn't.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:06 PM   #46
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The cool thing about free speech, is that not only do you have the right to say whatever you want, but you have the right to ignore what other people are saying if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is that everything you do could be seen as offensive to somebody. Nobody forced anybody to go to a Behemoth show. If you don't like it, don't watch it, if you choose to, and you choose to bitch about it, that's fine and dandy, but don't have somebody arrested for offending you.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:08 PM   #47
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by no means should he go to jail but i can't help but laugh at how retarded this whole thing is. i mean look at his costume and makeup and shit.. he looks ridiculous. destroying bibles? who is he, an angst-filled 17 year old that just discovered atheism and is pissed off at his christian parents? i'm not religious by any means whatsoever, but come on. people take this stuff way too seriously. i despise a lot of things about religion but i don't waste my time being an idiot and pretending to be some significant anti-religion lieutenant with makeup on.

but above all, he shouldn't be going to jail for that.
He's putting on a show to entertain... I don't think he's ever indicated that he thinks of himself as a leader of anti-religion. He just thinks religion is stupid and is showing it by ripping up what they follow, a book of fiction. It's been blown out of all proportion if you put it in perspective. We should be more bothered about using that cell for rapists and homocidal maniacs
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:12 PM   #48
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Play a show in Iran and rip up the Koran then i'll be impressed. Otherwise it seems a little like a publicty based stunt.

With all the crazy shit i've seen black metal bands do, especially in that part of the world this just reeks of bullshit.

Gorgoroth used to pretend to crucify people on stage. And if anyone has seen Mayhem live you'll know what im talking about.
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:12 PM   #49
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Unread 03-11-2010, 04:14 PM   #50
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The cool thing about free speech, is that not only do you have the right to say whatever you want, but you have the right to ignore what other people are saying if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is that everything you do could be seen as offensive to somebody. Nobody forced anybody to go to a Behemoth show. If you don't like it, don't watch it, if you choose to, and you choose to bitch about it, that's fine and dandy, but don't have somebody arrested for offending you.
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