[Drew]

Ok, I've been thinking a lot about this of late, ever since LordOfChaos posted a Blaze vs. X2N clip, and more so since I picked up an EMG equipped axe.

I remember a lot of you guys really dug the X2N clip because it was "tighter" than the (comparatively low output) Blaze. To my ears, it certainly had a lot less bass that tracked a bit faster, and seemed to occupy a much narrower frequency range, whereas the Blaze was more growly, had more low end, and was far more expansive. I figured it was just the way the pickups were voiced, and thought nothing of it.

Then I grabbed an EMG-equipped guitar. I'd left Channel 2 on my Nomad set for a nice 'crunch' rhythm tone, and I was tracking something so I clicked over and grabbed the Hellraiser. I plugged in, and got this thin, bright, focused biting tone without much body - more "crunch" but not half the depth. I then grabbed the UV, and it sounded far more lush and deep. Went back to the EMG's, and again I got more gain, but it was compressed in a far narrower range.

Then I started thinking about the Dimarzio "Dual Resonance" technology, and how they use slightly imbalanced coils to spread the tone of a higher output pickup over a slightly wider frequency range, and I began to wonder - is this sort of the (depending on how you want to look at it) either "function" or "tradeoff" of a high output pickup? That you get more gain and power, but because you're hitting the amp so hard in a particular frequency range and overdriving those freqencies so much (and thus, as overdrive is essentially a form of compression, basically compressing the rest), you're also focusing your guitar tone in a comparatively narrow frequency range, while with lower output pickups you have to rely more on the amp to provide overdrive, but in turn because you're not really slamming any particular frequency band, you're getting a more balanced, "fuller" tone?

This could be common knowledge and something I'm just realizing belatedly, so if I'm stating the obvious here bear with me. I also don't have enough experience with hot, medium, and low-output pickups to state categorically that this is true... But this seems to be my experience so far. It also explains why I like the EMG's so much for lead, in that I've always gravitated towards lead tones with a focus on the upper midrange and comparatively scooped lower mids, and the treble/upper mids seem to be where EMG's are strongest.

Thoughts?

[rogue]

all a bit deep for me

[NegaTiveXero]

Definitely makes some sense to me.

[scott from _actual time_]

Originally Posted by Drew

"tradeoff" of a high output pickup? That you get more gain and power, but because you're hitting the amp so hard in a particular frequency range and overdriving those freqencies so much (and thus, as overdrive is essentially a form of compression, basically compressing the rest), you're also focusing your guitar tone in a comparatively narrow frequency range, while with lower output pickups you have to rely more on the amp to provide overdrive, but in turn because you're not really slamming any particular frequency band, you're getting a more balanced, "fuller" tone?

i don't know if it's necessarily related to the frequency range, but slamming the input of a tube amp definately produces more saturation, which as you say compresses things, and reduces overall headroom.

boosting the levels any place before an amp's distortion stage usually does this, like cranking a pedal in front of the amp or pegging the EQ on a Mark-series Boogie. whereas post-distortion EQ is how most people boost the low-end on high gain sounds.

that's actually why Korn went to a lower output bridge humbucker, the PAF7, in the K7 guitars, according to DiMarzio. they were running so much gain at their amps that high output pickups turned it all to mud. so they went lower output to back off on that input-stage saturation.

[Drew]

Yeah, but I'm wondering if it has something to do with the WAY the amp saturates, rather than the fact it does at all - my very limited experience is that you get fuller tones from low-output pickups that don't slam any frequency range in particular, while you get tighter tones from pickups that really nail a certain series of frequencies, to the relative exclusion of all others.

That hot pickups help to saturate an amp is pretty widely accepted, but I'm wondering if that's only part of the "hot pickup" sound...

[Leon]

i've been wanting an oscilloscope for some time now. one of the things i've been really wanting to do lately is to check out how waveforms are changed as they go through the amp, through pedals, for different pickups, etc.

this would make a pretty good preliminary study for such a lab setup, if i could ever afford one.

[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by Drew

Yeah, but I'm wondering if it has something to do with the WAY the amp saturates, rather than the fact it does at all - my very limited experience is that you get fuller tones from low-output pickups that don't slam any frequency range in particular, while you get tighter tones from pickups that really nail a certain series of frequencies, to the relative exclusion of all others.

That hot pickups help to saturate an amp is pretty widely accepted, but I'm wondering if that's only part of the "hot pickup" sound...

Well, saturation from pickup output is definitely different than turning up the gain knob - you're actually driving the V1 tube harder, instead of having it drive more signal into the other tubes down the chain, so it definitely would have different characteristics...

[scott from _actual time_]

Originally Posted by Drew

my very limited experience is that you get fuller tones from low-output pickups that don't slam any frequency range in particular, while you get tighter tones from pickups that really nail a certain series of frequencies, to the relative exclusion of all others.

the PAF7 is actually both of those. it has low output but a big midrange spike. so it is slamming the midrange [DiMarzio could tell you more precisely where in the midrange], at least relative to its pretty low output at all other frequencies.

so i don't know if that pickup working so well in the K7 would disprove your theory or prove it both ways--fuller and tighter at the same time?

[Drew]

Originally Posted by scott from _actual time_

so i don't know if that pickup working so well in the K7 would disprove your theory or prove it both ways--fuller and tighter at the same time?

...and they're sort of working around it with their dual resonance technology, by trying to spread out the peak as far as possible.

By the way, "full" and "tight" the way I'm using them are opposites - full = spread across a wide frequency range, while tight = focused in a narrow frequency range.

[metalfiend666]

I've definitely found I get a fuller, fatter sound from my PAF7 and Blazes than I ever did from the Evo7 or EMG's. I'm very much a convert to low & mid output pickups now, though I wouldn't mind trying a DS7 or X2N7.