What do you beleive happens when you die?

[ZeroSignal]

Originally Posted by JJ Rodriguez

I don't think that was the original intent of the religion. It was probably meant as more of a moral guide line, etc. The problem is the people who implemented the religion and started to use it to control people.

Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. Then people started editing the bible wholesale. Like the removal of the gospel of Mary Magdalene.

[Xiphos68]

It never was in the sacred scriptures.

[JJ Rodriguez]

Who decided it was sacred? What were the guide lines? The process was controlled by man, and is therefor susceptible to man's weakness: greed.

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere really. Me and Ruarc are debating you on logical grounds, and asking questions that you're only responses are stuff you're taking from the bible. It doesn't sound like there's any personal thought in it, just "well, this is the way it is, because the bible says so".

I'm not trying to say don't worship your god, do what makes you happy. But your debating here is even worse than Flying_Bananas

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

It never was in the sacred scriptures.

Ever hear of the books from Nag Hamaddi? All texts dating to the same time as the Gospels found in the Bible. The church denounced these texts before they were even found! In the 1930's, a farmer and his brother found copies of them near Nag Hamaddi Egypt. Amongst others, these books include the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Jesus, the Gospel of James (the brother of Jesus), the Gospel of Thomas, etc.

Simply because you were raised to believe something doesn't mean that these texts aren't valid. What it means is, over the years, when people in power (both church and state) got together to decide what was appropriate to include in the 'holy texts', they left out the things that they felt were to be forbidden for one reason or another. The Bible should have been riddled with all sorts of information about reincarnation... but if you have reincarnation, you can't have the concept of hell.. and without the concept of hell, how can you control people with fear?

Like I said - just because you were raised to believe something doesn't mean that there isn't more to the story. I had to learn the hard (better) way myself, being raised a Catholic. Now I feel no need to belong to a secular group, because I don't believe in the ridiculous concept of hell. Nothing that anybody does is deserving of ETERNAL punishment. Do you realize that eternal punishment implies that you've done something infinitely bad? Given eternity, even the worst thing a human mind could conjure up could seem pretty mild.

Not telling you what to believe, just shedding some light.



Oh, and to the guys that were asking me to explain my idea of conscious energy... well, I suppose I don't have the energy to do that right now, haha, but I do have my shit pretty straight on it. I'd rather see how ^^this^^ one goes first.

[Brendan G]

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

What evidence is there. Have you seen this earth. There obliviously had to be creator for it to happen. I don't understand why people don't want to feel the love of God.

I for one do not, I simply cannot accept the fact than an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all good being, created and allowed evil to happen (God had to have created everything right? That includes Lucifer, whom many Christians blame for the origin of evil.) and if that were true, I will reject that being with all my will, even if that includes burning for all of eternity.

Almost everyone's response to that is "Well God doesn't mess with freewill." Well I (and I hope many others) believe vehemently that that is a bad promise, and many people break bad promises if they are made.

I'll give you an example, let's say a friend told you "I am going to kill myself at 5 PM tonight at location X, you have to promise not to tell anyone." (Yes I know this situation is highly improbable, but just go with it.) and the guy seems quite serious, and for some reason you agree. As the time draws near, what do you do? I would imagine that close to no one would go through with their bad promise right? And if you do, you are a despicable human being.

[El Caco]

Originally Posted by twiztedchild

The only thing I can't figure out is WHY did that one get closed but this one is STILL open?

That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.

Originally Posted by twiztedchild

Maybe. but THIS one is really turning into nothing but neg reps. at least it was

The neg rep issue has been handled. Move on!

Anyone caught abusing the E-Rep system will be subject to the BanHammer.

Originally Posted by JJ Rodriguez

...., this thread is going to get locked

The topic is What do you believe happens when you die? If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.

[ZeroSignal]

Originally Posted by s7eve

That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.

The topic is What do you believe happens when you die? If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.

And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.

Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.

[JBroll]

Xiphos, you have clearly missed the gigantic stomping that took place last time one had so little thought put into stating his beliefs. Go ahead and read the rest of the thread to see what happens when you try to state your beliefs as fact with no proof whatsoever - and, even better, when you put horrible 'arguments' (like the argument from creation) forward to help your case. Your argument is invalid because either your god needed creation or your god didn't need creation - the first case implies the need for an infinite regression of increasingly powerful deities without actually explaining anything, and the second case only moves the burden of spontaneous existence from one thing to another. The thread can be interesting, just try actually *discussing* things instead of telling people they're going to hell.

Jeff

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by hairychris

OK, so where does this concious energy come from? You said in a previous post that you don't believe that energy can be created or destroyed*...

Are you trying to say that the energy required for conciousness is somehow different to the chemical energy that eating food provides?

We know more or less how the brain works (chemical and electrical triggers & receptors), that brain chemistry & construction has an affect on abstract things like mood, memory, personality (personality disorders because of physical problems with the brain)... and that abstractions like thoughts & moods can have an affect on the chemistry & construction of the hardware (you can train your memory, plus reactions to things like danger).

There's a heck of a lot of energy being used between our ears - thinking burns a lot of resources!

Anyway, if the energy that our brain consumes - and, as a product of this, our thoughts and personality and soul - isn't from our food, where does it come from?? Computers don't work if you don't plug them in...

To my thinking this is where the whole dualist view kind of fails. Where does this 'energy' come from? How does it interact with the natural universe? As more advanced animals obviously have what we call 'personalities' how do we classify them?

Too many questions, and that's without any reference to higher powers or deities.

* JBroll is absolutely right in saying that you can convert matter to energy - nuclear energy is an example of this - although I'm personally not sure if the reverse is true, it may be. Actually, you can look at matter as essentially a potential for energy and nothing else.

FWIW energy at the quantum level appears to spontaneously appear & disappear, and because of this there are situations where supposedly the amount of energy in the universe may increase or decrease (particle/antiparticle creation at the event horizon of a black hole which catches one of the pair but not both), but this is all somewhat theoretical and way above my head!!

Energy can be turned into matter - some of the energy from a nuclear explosion turns back into mass.

Quantum fluctuations are themselves interesting, and Hawking radiation (which you just described) isn't unresolved the way you've stated it because black holes have mass themselves. It's just a sort of virtual 'emission' that could let them 'release' energy.

Jeff

[ZeroSignal]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Energy can be turned into matter - some of the energy from a nuclear explosion turns back into mass.

H + O2 = Flame and death --> Water.

[El Caco]

Originally Posted by ZeroSignal

And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.

Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.

That is the problem IMO, who said it has to be a debate. Why is it that people feel the need to challenge other peoples beliefs? I understand it goes both ways and has in this thread, look where that got us. Possibly the problem is the word "believe" in the title, it invokes the "why would you believe that" response.

The fact is none of us knows what will happen after we die, if we are not certain our selves why do we feel the need to challenge someone else's belief?

IMO the debate aspect of this thread has made the thread unfriendly and the fear of scorn can prevent some from contributing to the thread. If someone were to say "how can we know because how do we know that we were not created 5 minutes ago and our memories were implanted so that we believe we have been here for much longer?" they shouldn't fear scorn or negative feedback for sharing their beliefs or ideas. Even if you wanted to test that belief, there is a way to debate it without belittling the person. If you want someone to consider your opinion, insulting them and ridiculing their belief is not the way to go about it and personally I would question why I should consider something from someone who is not able to master constructive communication techniques. Again, this goes both ways.

I do not have a belief in what happens after we die, I have a lot of ideas about the possibilities. My favourite scenario is I check my stats, talk shit then play again.

[Adam Of Angels]

People are intensely prone to various forms of insecurity. When somebody believes something that counters their logic (which is limited to mainstream scientific acceptance in the case of most athiests), they feel that they must protect their own security by cutting away at that belief. Its a simple psychological concept.

On the other hand, I don't mind. Our brains aren't capable of containing the greatness that is the inner-workings of the universe. We're still evolving :-)

[ZeroSignal]

I agree with you Steve, but when someone posts something that is challenging someone else's beliefs then I think that that changes things slightly. Case in point:

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

That's truth you either believe in Jesus and dedicate your life to him or you don't and go to hell and burn eternity. No sugar coating whatsoever. Send me a message if you have any questions.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by Adam Of Angels

People are intensely prone to various forms of insecurity. When somebody believes something that counters their logic (which is limited to mainstream scientific acceptance in the case of most athiests), they feel that they must protect their own security by cutting away at that belief. Its a simple psychological concept.

On the other hand, I don't mind. Our brains aren't capable of containing the greatness that is the inner-workings of the universe. We're still evolving :-)

(1) Logic doesn't involve taking science on faith, and 'most atheists' do nothing of the sort.
(2) 'Cutting away at beliefs' over the last few pages has come as a result of posts that qualify as borderline trolling - believe it or not, 'most atheists' would still fight for anyone's right to believe anything, as forcing beliefs of any kind is wrong.
(3) There's a difference between 'not capable' and 'not capable *yet*', and claiming that we can't know something takes far more knowledge than the same claim would allow.

Jeff

[bulletbass man]

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

True that. But not everybody perfect we've all made mistakes. That probaly another reason why people dont believe. I think its all so the life change you make. Because some people dont want to change.

So god's predetermined path of your existance puts you in charge of your life? Also please take into the consideration how often those people try to change. I've known several drug addicts one of which turned to his church for help and recieved a swift kick out the door because he was a sinner. So while god may not turn anyone away the christians do. My largest problem with relegion. This goes for all religions. I myself struggle with anger issues. I always try to remain as positive as I can. But it rarely takes long before either the down right evilness that mankind dishes out of greed or intolerance is utterly infuriating. Why must your god be the same as my god. can we not worship the same god in different ways? Man has corrupted any real possible connection with this so called god. Whom simply sits there with an empty promise of saving us all in the afterlife.

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

Well because following Jesus. He wants you to be like him. Jesus didn't do anything wrong he never sinned he was tempted but he didn't sin. I mean were hear to glorify God and spread his love. I love God personally which your always have to have God first in your life . He's loved me and giving blessings that I shouldn't have and the protection he giving me to. He dont want you to be like the world which is sin.

Well the trinity says that god is really the father, the son, and the holy spirit. There was no jesus only god in a different form. He may not want you in this world of sin but I have yet to find anything he does about it. How many slaughters have resulted directly due to religion?

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

Ok first God dont have to prove himself. I mean take for example the video. How did that stuff get created.

So the miracles of Jesus or God through out the bible are not stories told to prove god. Or can I write an abridged version which says the 10 commandments, love one another, and spread this sentence and it shall be as holy as the bible?

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

Thats because there either burning or being with God in heaven.

Well were did the bible come from?

Yeah how many people can tell you about the afterlife personally?

I'm sorry to be such a dick. I usually stay in the middle of the road. I once was a christian by the way. have spent years debating god's existance. And one day completely crashed.

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by JBroll

(1) Logic doesn't involve taking science on faith, and 'most atheists' do nothing of the sort.
(2) 'Cutting away at beliefs' over the last few pages has come as a result of posts that qualify as borderline trolling - believe it or not, 'most atheists' would still fight for anyone's right to believe anything, as forcing beliefs of any kind is wrong.
(3) There's a difference between 'not capable' and 'not capable *yet*', and claiming that we can't know something takes far more knowledge than the same claim would allow.

Jeff

Stop trying to put me down, man. You're not really doing as good of a job as you think you are.

(1) Your logic, in general, is the way you think. Its the path that your thoughts take, in general. What I was saying, was that when somebody else's belief contradicts that of yours ("you" being the person in question), insecurity will have it that an argument based around self-justification will come about.
(2) Nobody will find out you're an athiest if you don't tell them. If you tell them, you're more than likely in the process of defending yourself in some way - not in all cases, but most cases. The exception would usually be a light hearted debate. When I used the term "most athiests", I was pointing out that "most athiests" rely on what is accepted in mainstream science to be fact. I didn't say that most athiests are the defensive people in question.
(3) Did I say that our brains will never be capable of understanding? I said that they are not capable of understanding... which implies the present moment. My point and your point are exactly the same, my friend. Thank you, though.

[JBroll]

I'm actually not trying to put you down, believe it or not. You'll know if I do.

(1) This doesn't have to do with insecurity as much as wanting everything to be well-justified - if some Charismatic Ultra-Fundagelical Sunni Neopagan Theravadan Subgenius can bring something to the table, great... the problem I had was with your stereotyping.

(2) I haven't found this to be true at all, myself - there doesn't have to be a debate or witch trial going on for someone to ask me what I believe in... and there usually isn't.

(3) I didn't say that you said that.

(Oh look, this isn't an argument!
Yes it is.
No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
No it isn't.
It is!
It is not.
Look, you just contradicted me.
I did not!)

Jeff

[Adam Of Angels]

I dunno, I don't really think there's any substance to our debate. I'm willing to end it, because I'm not really into it. Could be the Christmas wine talking (and yes, Christmas wine is different, because combined with loud family members, an instant hangover is induced)

[JBroll]

I don't think we're really debating.

(I came here for a good argument!
No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
An argument isn't just contradiction.
It can be.
No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
No it isn't!)

That's one nice thing about being out of the whole religion thing... family doesn't expect you to be up at the asscrack of dawn opening ugly boxes and pretending that the fruitcake doesn't taste like death. April Fools' Day presents are amusing, but apparently I shouldn't give away so many things that explode without warning.

Jeff

[Adam Of Angels]

Haha - yeah, it took many years for my family to stop ridiculing me over not going to church on the holidays. This year will mark the first that I recieved no grief. But shit - this is a materialistic holiday for the most part, which I don't dig either, but the religious part hardly seems to matter. I know that if I were a demigod of some sort, I wouldn't want lesser beings worshipping me, let alone making petty holidays over my birth.

[JBroll]

Try worshiping yourself sometime - confuses the religious, makes holidays fun, you get to play 'inflate the ego' whenever you want, and - best of all - even a god worships you!

Even before I left Christianity I couldn't stand all of the commercialization of holidays in general, and now it looks to me like just another instance of religious leanings being used to manipulate people. Oh well, the music stops soon enough...

Jeff

[Adam Of Angels]

Originally Posted by JBroll

Oh well, the music stops soon enough...

..and that's all the ....ing matters right now. If I have to hear one more song about something as stupid as a ....ing snowman, I'll shoot myself.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by s7eve

That one was closed because the discussion was continued after Eric posted the warning.



The neg rep issue has been handled. Move on!

Anyone caught abusing the E-Rep system will be subject to the BanHammer.





The topic is What do you believe happens when you die? If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.

Well thats good and about the warning thing I didn't know that sorry

Originally Posted by ZeroSignal

And for some reason he kinda wants this thread closed. I think it's serving a purpose and I for one enjoy reading and taking part in the discussions.

Personally I believe that the debate on existence or non-existence of god is very important to the entire debate. For without god or a higher power there would most likely not be an after life.

Actually I said that IF you guys where going to argue over if god existed or not it should be closed, I basically said this EXACT thing right here:

Originally Posted by s7eve

The topic is What do you believe happens when you die? If you wish to continue the Christian vs Atheist discussion start a new thread.

So, Just thought I would clear that up

[Nick]

once again, neg repped by some pussy who couldnt man up and put his/her name to it.

when someone makes a statment like 'when something bad happens you need to be able to look past it' they need to apply that to when something BAD happens. Otherwise they are just talking shit.

Originally Posted by Xiphos68

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness covered the surface of the waters.

How did you prove the bible wrong?

How did you prove it wrong tell me what you proved wrong?

haha Richard Dawkins would spontaniously combust if he had to talk to you for 5 minutes.

[El Caco]

Nick, I will repeat the rep abuser has been taken care of and anyone caught abusing e-rep in future will be subject to the BanHammer.

If you post that in here there is a chance that a mod will miss it, in future please report e-rep abuse to a Mod.