What do you beleive happens when you die?

[Kakaka]

Originally Posted by JBroll:
Just keep in mind that you're going up against people who disagree with you not because they're unfamiliar with the story but because they know it too well.
Jeff

What Naren denied is actually an understanding of many Bible studiers and believers, me included.

That is that God won't condemn those who never had the gospel preached to them in the form one generally imagines (a person talking) because of that. The Bible says that God can be seen in the wonders of creation, and that alone is an announcement of the gospel.

I really don't want to argue as if trying to prove faith by logic and philosophical wisdom, I don't think it's much useful.

So, I'd like to say, as a christian, believer in the Bible (I like the 1995 JKV, for instance), that for what I know of the God of the Bible, who happens to be my Father by faith, He has no commitment to proving His existence in any extraordinary way, meaning other than the ones the Bible mentions.

And to confirm that, I quote two verses from it:

Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

I, and many others, take from that and other supporting parts of the Scripture, that no man can reach God or understand Him by himself, by his reason, intelligence or effort, but actually the very opposite is true: only through faith in God, the God presented by the Bible as the word of God.

And:

Genesis 1:1 (New International Version)

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

It's the first verse, the first impression perhaps, and doesn't start proving God's existence, neither does later, it simply assumes He does exist, that His word is true and all the rest is based upon this.

So, I really don't want to mess brother FlyingBanana's discussion and profession of faith here, but really just state that most of the accusations against the Christian faith as being irrational are true, if rationality means human reason and perception of reality, in which most here rely along with their senses as the path to obtain or evaluate what the truth must be.

[hairychris]

Originally Posted by Kakaka

So, I really don't want to mess brother FlyingBanana's discussion and profession of faith here, but really just state that most of the accusations against the Christian faith as being irrational are true, if rationality means human reason and perception of reality, in which most here rely along with their senses as the path to obtain or evaluate what the truth must be.

+1, and I come from the dark side.

I do, however, fundamentally disagree with your conclusions*, but not with the fact that you accept that rationality and faith are not compatible. I assume that's what you mean - if something is proven by rational methods to be true, you do not need belief in a religious context.

I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth!

If you're Brazilian I imagine that you're Catholic. FWIW the Roman church has a far more consistant approach then the many flavours of the reformed faith - mainly due to it's centralisation, tools like papal bulls, etc. There is also an intellectual strand to catholicism that is missing in a lot of the more fundamental protestant sects.

Again, I disagree with the philosophies but at least they're more concrete!



* I believe that the chain of causality ends at a completely natural source. Even if we can never discover what's outside this causality, making a claim for an intelligent being is somewhat rash, and a personal god is even more so... Anyway, our own perception of reality is the only one we can rely on. If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests physically in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)

[Makelele]

I beleive that when I die I will go to Valhalla where I will drink mead and feast on Sæhrímnir every night. Or maybe not.

I just beleive that if there is an omnipotent God, then he can't be so petty that he'd condemn someone who's lived a good life, done mostly good things and little bad to an eternity of torment in hell. If that was the case I'd say he'd be quite an asshole, and I certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with him.

I know I'm joining this thread a bit late, so someone has probably brought up similar views.

Edit: Just noticed that my signature kind of fits in with the thread.

[FlyingBanana]

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.

Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?

I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.

One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?

Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?

[JJ Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.

Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?

I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?

Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.

One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?

Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?

What you're talking about now is intelligent design. I wouldn't call myself an atheist exactly, I'm more of a REALLY skeptical agnostic. If you showed me proof there was a god, I'd believe it, but obviously that's not possible. But given the contradictions in the bible, and just the general silly (to me, I'm not trying to offend) nature of the laws and rules you're supposed to obey, I doubt that Christianity would be the right faith out of all of them. In fact, the arrogance, tyrannical nature and general cruelty showed by the Christian god would probably make me worship the devil

And to what lengths does your god try to make himself known? If he really wanted to be known, he could easily just say "hey, what's up dudes?" and be done with it. So now you have 2 conflicting statements, the we're supposed to go on free will statement, or the fact he is trying to let us know. I don't think those are 2 compatible statements really.

I still stand by my statement earlier, that if he is really Omniscient, which would automatically rule out free will since he would either know the future, or be able to predict pretty accurately through his vast knowledge of psychology and brain chemistry, then he would know whether or not we would end up following him the moment we were conceived. So basically he created me for the sole purpose of damning me? I refer back to my first paragraph

As for why people try to disprove him, or why we're even posting in this thread, it's just a discussion. We're shooting the shit. Do you personally have anything better to do?

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.

Let's say that He doesn't exist. This would mean that all of the things around us came into being by random chance or by natural cause. Many people make this statement. For example, if you roll a pair of dice, you may get a pair of sixes. That is one thing, but what are the odds of rolling a pair of blank dice and spots suddenly appearing?

This is not at all analogous to the way we claim that life came into existence.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

I remember reading that around a hundred and fifty years ago or so, Pasteur tried to prove that life cannot be created from non-life. Science today has proven this beyond all doubt. So...where has human, animal and plant life come from?

Actually, the second sentence is completely false. Abiogenesis is the most plausible of options and evolution (NOT random chance alone, random chance guided by the survival of the most powerful genes) is the best option from there.

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Also, natural causes are not a plausible explanation for the vast amounts of precise information contained in human DNA. Someone who denies God's existence is left with the conclusion that all life came about by accident, for no reason and it was all just a stroke of luck that the atoms collided the way they did and all of a sudden here we are. However, we have already learned from Pasteur and the scientists of today that this simply isn't possible.

Again, you're wrong. It's no coincidence that even in America, the fundagelical haven of the West, over 90% of the National Academy of Sciences lack a religious belief. You have quite a bit of reading to do. Science simply does not agree with you, and it's no coincidence that the people who use evolution as their working model are also the people who make serious progress in medicine and genetic research...

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

One thing I'd like to ask is this...if God does not exist, why does He go to such lengths to make Himself known to man?

If he is omnipotent, why does he leave so much doubt, with the best 'evidence' being an inconsistent and nonsensical text written by cavemen about fantasies?

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Why is it that people who absolutely and resolutely deny God's existence would spend so much time, attention, and energy attempting to refute something that they don't believe even exists?! What causes people to do that?

If religious people left atheists alone - and didn't discriminate against them, demonize them, and try to make them subhuman - there would be less of an opposition. The reason religion is attacked is the same reason behind attacking other beliefs that are wrong and often harmful.

Your first arguments are literally arguments from your own lack of knowledge. You clearly have a lot of reading to do - and a lot of thinking to catch up on.

Suppose your god is the creator of life. He either did or did not need creation himself; the former option only leads us to an infinite regression of increasingly powerful and complex deities, and the latter option shifts the "how the .... did that happen?" from simple life to an even more complex and seemingly unnecessary being.

Jeff

[FlyingBanana]

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.

God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

[ZeroSignal]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Actually, I've left this discussion to the people who can voice my views more accurately than I can but I have to jump in on this. Jeff is merely responding to your statement. He is not berating you. He is telling you that you are wrong and (mostly) showing you how you are incorrect. He's just replying to what you have said. I really don't feel that there are agendas here that I can see.

It's a whole different story if you can't keep up with a debate (I know I sure as hell have problems with that so I've stepped well out of this one ) but to take part in a debate and then drop out calling fouls left-right-and-centre is a bit... poor form.

And by the way, I'm in the precise same camp as JJ on this. I'm not Atheist, just a really sceptical Agnostic.

[Psyclapse]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.

God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

But you are trying to prove something, you're trying to prove that God exists and believing in him is the right course of action. You're arguing with everyone who disagrees with you by saying things like this:

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Here's another approach to the claim that God does not exist.

You're telling us that we're wrong. If you'd just stick to what you believe and (God forbid) why, maybe people wouldn't get so defensive. And Jeff isn't berating you, from my viewpoint he's just countering your "evidence" with his.

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Jeff, why do you continue to berate me over my beliefs? I haven't once condemned you nor made fun of you. All that your posts have done is show that you categorically deny God's existence. (over and over)

I'll sit back for now and let you take over center stage, because you aren't allowing any kind of constructive discussion to take place.

Edit. Interestingly, I am not trying to prove anything, but only share with you God's love and yet here you are trying to disprove Him. It seems that you are the one with doubt. Why do people try so diligently to disprove a God of love let alone One who sent a version of Himself as Christ....who healed the sick, raised the dead and created food from nothing...to prove to the people of the world that God does in fact exist? Yet even without all of the historical accounts in the bible, God's miracle of life is all around us.

God tells us this in John 13. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

I'm not allowing constructive discussion? I'm taking your arguments apart and quite plainly saying that you don't know what you're talking about when you use illogical arguments and statements not grounded in reality. You're walking in believing that we already trust the same things you do and assuming that we're just hiding from something because we don't want it to be true.

As for "trying to disprove" your beliefs... first, I don't need to disprove anything, strictly speaking, because you're the one making a fairly hefty claim without backing. Second, there's a whole lot of stuff that could be believed in, and it takes a lot to convince some of us that something is true - and I believe that if something is worth believing in, it's worth tearing apart endlessly to make sure it's really justified. Third, your inability to see other points of view is increasingly more obvious, as you've gone from 'fundagelical oblivious to how actual atheists work' to 'fundagelical oblivious to how arguments work and ducking for cover behind offense' and you really haven't said anything that atheists generally haven't heard a thousand times before - keep in mind that we're working solely with reason and logic, minimizing the assumptions made about the world around us, and letting everything stand strictly on its own merit - no matter how happy a belief might make us.

Further, you keep just blindly asserting the same thing over and over again - you need quite a bit more proof than just quoting things out of the Bible, because nobody believes that anyway - and even without that it's pretty useless, as I've actually read the thing.

Jeff

[JBroll]

Originally Posted by Psyclapse

And Jeff isn't berating you, from my viewpoint he's just countering your "evidence" with his.

This is precisely true - you'd know if I was actually berating you, this is just being blunt, direct, and straightforward.

Jeff

[Symphonia87]

You go through several reincarnations then either go to a heaven, which is like earth, but is earth you'd like to be or hell which is an earth that is your worst nightmare. My hell would include having to eat cheese constantly and having nothing but fall out boy on the radio.

[Pauly]

I'd post in this thread buy hairychris is doing a good job of saying exactly what I would.

[Psyclapse]

Originally Posted by Symphonia87

You go through several reincarnations then either go to a heaven, which is like earth, but is earth you'd like to be or hell which is an earth that is your worst nightmare. My hell would include having to eat cheese constantly and having nothing but fall out boy on the radio.

Fall Out Boy would absolutely be hell but what's wrong with cheese?

[Kakaka]

Originally Posted by hairychris

I do, however, fundamentally disagree with your conclusions*, but not with the fact that you accept that rationality and faith are not compatible. I assume that's what you mean - if something is proven by rational methods to be true, you do not need belief in a religious context.

I hope I'm not putting words into your mouth!

If you're Brazilian I imagine that you're Catholic. FWIW the Roman church has a far more consistant approach then the many flavours of the reformed faith - mainly due to it's centralisation, tools like papal bulls, etc. There is also an intellectual strand to catholicism that is missing in a lot of the more fundamental protestant sects.

Again, I disagree with the philosophies but at least they're more concrete!



* I believe that the chain of causality ends at a completely natural source. Even if we can never discover what's outside this causality, making a claim for an intelligent being is somewhat rash, and a personal god is even more so... Anyway, our own perception of reality is the only one we can rely on. If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests physically in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)

No, I actually don't feel like you may have put words on my mouth, keeping in mind what the acceptation of rationality was being used.

I'm not catholic, can't say I'm protestant either and not really enrolled to any religious organization.
I'm christian, and try to remain that alone. Just because I take from the Bible that the price Christ paid on the cross to redeem me is too high for me to add any other name to His.
Not meaning that I censor anyone who is protestant or catholic, it's just my particular walk with God.

But I tend to have more contact and share more of the protestant faith, that because the catholic church departs too much from what I see the church of Christ in the Bible should be.

But I haven't read much catholic writings to be able compare them with any other as you did, I guess you must have read some, I can't evaluate them from a scientific/scholar viewpoint.
Contrary to that, I actually don't look for catholic literature because since I don't see the catholic system in accordance to what I read on the Bible, I'd rather read other texts, part of which are of protestant origin.

And I completely agree that we think differently on that, about that last part of your post:

If something is outside our perception it, to all intents & purposes, does not exist in our reality UNLESS it manifests physically in some other way... (eg we cannot percieve ultraviolet light with our natural sightbut we know that it exists because it affects other objects in our physical world in a consistant fashion)

I think that perhaps the key difference in our diverging opinions is in that last "consistent fashion", if I get it right. For me though one can't perceive something one can still be affected by it. One's limited perception grants one a limited reality, and I believe there is an absolute, all-embracing, universal(not in a democratic, popular way) reality, which I call truth.

And I appreciate the politeness, thanks very much.

[twiztedchild]

Does ANYONE noticed that you are not even talking about the same damn topic as when this thread was opened now??

mean COME ON.No one will agree with anyone else. just shut up and close this thread. OR start another thread that is about religion.


And people thought I was derailing this thread

[Kakaka]

^ Is right.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by Kakaka

^ Is right.

Thank you.

[ZeroSignal]

I like this thread. I say leave it.

[JJ Rodriguez]

Well, a thread about what you think happens when you die is obviously about religion anyways, so I don't think any of this stuff is off topic.

[Zepp88]

I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by Zepp88

I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.

This man speakth the truth

[bulletbass man]

these lounge topics always tend to go south after a while

My only view on religion is that the more everyone preaches to one another the less and less it is about your god and the more it is about you. Coming from someone who once had a fairly religious ideology until I was pushed away by those who could not relize preaching thier exact view only pushes people further from believing in a universal god who actually is watching over mankind.

Honestly I don't get religion anymore. Partly because I relized that I didn't have the same beliefs as the people who deemed themselves christians. Also a vast number of personal views and realizations has also pushed me away. Yet I still run a contemporary youth service at my church as it's the only avenue for the people who had the same issues as me to go to thier god and it would likely collapse rather quickly if I stopped leading it. Honestly whether you are an agnostic, catholic, protestant, jew, or believe that clifford the big red dog is the messiah you need to stop forcing your specific views on others. You can quietly and openly express your views but starting heated arguements only makes you look like an arogant moron. (and yes I do relize I look like an arogant moron by making this post)

[FlyingBanana]

Originally Posted by Zepp88

I fail to see why the topic is worth discussing. You're never going to know, not until you die. If you really want to know, there are quick ways to find out.

Yeah..... Stand in the middle of a train tunnel at night and wait untill you see the light...then walk towards it.

[twiztedchild]

Originally Posted by FlyingBanana

Yeah..... Stand in the middle of a train tunnel at night and wait untill you see the light...then walk towards it.

Im not saying that your an Idiot. just saying that post is crazy

Originally Posted by bulletbass man

Honestly whether you are an agnostic, catholic, protestant, jew, or believe that clifford the big red dog is the messiah you need to stop forcing your specific views on others. You can quietly and openly express your views but starting heated arguements only makes you look like an arogant moron. (and yes I do relize I look like an arogant moron by making this post)

that is awesome!!!