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Unread 08-14-2011, 12:41 PM   #51
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Unread 08-14-2011, 12:43 PM   #52
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^If you read the articles you would note that both Stalin and Mao used atheism as a cornerstone of their policies.

Do these render thousands of years of religious oppression null and void? Of course not. Examples of 'atheist oppression' were asked for and provided.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 01:48 PM   #53
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^If you read the articles you would note that both Stalin and Mao used atheism as a cornerstone of their policies.

Do these render thousands of years of religious oppression null and void? Of course not. Examples of 'atheist oppression' were asked for and provided.
I would say that even if there were no documentation of what atheists have done to rival Christian atrocities, the mindset is just as damaging. Crosstitutes act like idiots thinking that they're somehow doing the lords work, angry atheists in response poke the hornet's nest giving Crosstitutes the validation they need to carry on more nonsense and the cycle just goes on and on and on. The whole "us against them" thing really needs to quit on both ends. If people would just quit pointing fingers a lot of tensions would fizzle out.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 03:31 PM   #54
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Lots of finger-pointing, and then...

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...If people would just quit pointing fingers a lot of tensions would fizzle out.
Way to lead by example... er.. wait a minute...
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Unread 08-14-2011, 03:44 PM   #55
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I'm basically agnostic. Never been religious, never will be, but personally some atheistic attitudes can be as off putting as hardcore religious mentality. Basically, a lot of atheistic mindset is just so finite and made up - "There's no God, this is all pure chance, END OF STORY!!!"
Its funny. I considered myself agnostic for a long time and only recently changed that outlook after a bit of introspection (possibly fueled by the book Godless).

It's really simple how I made the determination; it was really as simple as: "what does the majority of the evidence point to, god or no god?" In answering that question (no god, as there is evidence in support of that conclusion), another question formed: "If I had not been taught to believe in a god and knowing what science has taught me now, would I have ever thought to create the idea of a god." The answer to that question was "no," ergo the only logical conclusion was to disallow for the existence of a god, as there is no evidence for it and I would not have thought of a god-like entity had my mind not already been polluted by the idea from childhood.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 03:55 PM   #56
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Its funny. I considered myself agnostic for a long time and only recently changed that outlook after a bit of introspection (possibly fueled by the book Godless).

It's really simple how I made the determination; it was really as simple as: "what does the majority of the evidence point to, god or no god?" In answering that question (no god, as there is evidence in support of that conclusion), another question formed: "If I had not been taught to believe in a god and knowing what science has taught me now, would I have ever thought to create the idea of a god." The answer to that question was "no," ergo the only logical conclusion was to disallow for the existence of a god, as there is no evidence for it and I would not have thought of a god-like entity had my mind not already been polluted by the idea from childhood.
Never thought of it that way. Makes me wonder that if a person were put in the situation you described, would the concept of God even come about? I'd say yes only because eventually someone would look for the "origin" of it all (kinda like the God Particle concept). Now if they would create the idea of an anthropomorphic being, that part I don't know, but I'm thinking someone would still create some kind of god as the ultimate answer to "why"
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:12 PM   #57
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Much like how this is what..the sixth time you've tried to pick some retarded philosophy war with me? Much like atheists who can't seem to leave Christians alone due to their conflicting views..and vice versa. It would seem that if people just agreed to disagree and left it at that, there would be less issues. Try it.
I see where you coming from, but I have to disagree.

You cannot agree or disagree with a belief, since it's a belief. You can share it, or not share it.
I am an atheist and I cannot discuss normal matters with religious people, ince they know always better. Their source is untouchable, undeniable, unchanged, holy, sacred etc.
And exactly this makes Religion dangerous. People get Authority for their bad actions from a script written by some guys some hundrets of years ago.

The one and only difference between an atheist and a believer is this "?"

If the religious people could use the "?" on daily basis, we wouldn't have all those atrocities, and Atheists like us wouldn't have to fight for our rights.

I like that movie BTW, it contradicts itself, but that is natural for philosophy. Trying to see things from different perspectives, and come to a conclusion at the end is normal.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:14 PM   #58
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Never thought of it that way. Makes me wonder that if a person were put in the situation you described, would the concept of God even come about? I'd say yes only because eventually someone would look for the "origin" of it all (kinda like the God Particle concept). Now if they would create the idea of an anthropomorphic being, that part I don't know, but I'm thinking someone would still create some kind of god as the ultimate answer to "why"
I guess it really just depends on what information is out there when someone considers it. Many people choose to reject the idea that matter can come from nothing simply because the concept is too foreign to entertain as true even when there is evidence supporting it (as there is now).

Personally, I've agonized over the idea of god and existence since I was 10 years old and have probably spent waaaaay more time than I should considering every possible angle I could come up with. I still kinda wish I could believe in the bible as the idea of nothingness after death is still disturbing even though I accept it as the most likely scenario.

I actually just watched an episode of "Through the Wormhole" that sparked some thought on the afterlife & the possibility of a cosmic conscious that is possible within the laws of nature.

I guess, weighing in as the token Atheist, I can say I only believe in something that has evidence backing it up. I don't know if I can be considered the benchmark for how an Atheist views the world, but most of the ones I've met don't dogmatically believe in science; we all realize science is just a tool for discovery and is constantly being refined as more knowledge is accumulated.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:20 PM   #59
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I see where you coming from, but I have to disagree.

You cannot agree or disagree with a belief, since it's a belief. You can share it, or not share it.
I am an atheist and I cannot discuss normal matters with religious people, ince they know always better. Their source is untouchable, undeniable, unchanged, holy, sacred etc.
And exactly this makes Religion dangerous. People get Authority for their bad actions from a script written by some guys some hundrets of years ago.

The one and only difference between an atheist and a believer is this "?"

If the religious people could use the "?" on daily basis, we wouldn't have all those atrocities, and Atheists like us wouldn't have to fight for our rights.

I like that movie BTW, it contradicts itself, but that is natural for philosophy. Trying to see things from different perspectives, and come to a conclusion at the end is normal.
I get you and agree with you on many levels, however I don't think the "enemy" here is religion. There are people who are very religious and some of the most sane and nice people you'd ever want to meet. Much like there are atheists who are the coolest most level head people you'd ever want to see. I personally think the issue is the human need to be right. For every person that has a certain philosophy and lives a good life because of it, there are nutjobs who take that same philosophy and do horrible things. My only issue is it just makes me feel uneasy whenever people attack the philosophy without taking into consideration the people behind it.

I've played the argue with Christians game and I just learned that once all the shouting is over nothing changes and you both just end up looking foolish. It's easier to just let them believe what they want and don't bother them. Unfortunately some religious, and some non-religious, people don't adopt that mindset and things go wrong when they attempt to prove the flaws in the other side's way of thinking..
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:27 PM   #60
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. It's easier to just let them believe what they want and don't bother them. Unfortunately some religious, and some non-religious, people don't adopt that mindset and things go wrong when they attempt to prove the flaws in the other side's way of thinking..
That would be easy if they wouldn't put crosses with a agonizing Zombie on it to every classroom, poisoning young minds, raping and abusing the little children in the house of their dieties, asking me why my beard is not as the one from Muhammad, hitting young girls in their faces because they wore a basketball short in Ramadan. Heck, they kill each other because of small differences like if Maria would be more Holy or Jesus, or who has more right to live in Jerusalem.

As you see, none of this big bullshit is caused by reason, a well put "?" or atheism.

I don't want to live my or my beloved ones this kind of life, full of nutjobs everywhere. I belive in the "?", and I will fight for my and other's right to use it , freely, in the schools, at their jobs, on tv, without any limits.

Cheers man!
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:39 PM   #61
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I believe in God, he just pisses me off at times...We have not been on good terms in a while.

Why can't people let just other people believe whatever they want to and just leave it at that? I mean seriously if you want to believe in God fine , if not that is fine too. Just let people do whatever they want to.

As the great philosopher Churchaquinas one said-"It does not matter what one believes in, as all believe in something. But the real asshole is the one who presses their beliefs on to others and criticizes others for believing in what they do."

Not stating anyone here is, just following my very wise philosopher....
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:47 PM   #62
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I believe in God, he just pisses me off at times...We have not been on good terms in a while.

Why can't people let just other people believe whatever they want to and just leave it at that? I mean seriously if you want to believe in God fine , if not that is fine too. Just let people do whatever they want to.

As the great philosopher Churchaquinas one said-"It does not matter what one believes in, as all believe in something. But the real asshole is the one who presses their beliefs on to others and criticizes others for believing in what they do."

Not stating anyone here is, just following my very wise philosopher....
see my above post. That is the reason
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Unread 08-14-2011, 05:32 PM   #63
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It's really simple how I made the determination; it was really as simple as: "what does the majority of the evidence point to, god or no god?"
Yes, but while there is no "direct physical" evidence of God do you not think the order in the universe suggests some form of intelligent design? Do you really not think so? I've given several decent points and could lend dozens of others that would suggest some form of thought in the way everything works and functions. Absence of evidence never means something does not exist.

That aside though, again, myself as an agnostic I am in no way saying I believe in a God or Gods. Just that there does seem to have been some intelligence in the way it all works. Now, coming from the idea of spontaneous creation - sure it's possible and I would never rule it out even though the human mind has difficulty understanding such a thing due to the nature of our universe. But fact is, there are only two possibilities that I can personally see (maybe there are more of course). One is that creation does spontaneously come from nothing. There other is that everything was ALWAYS there and merely changes form. See, I'm much more prone to believe that - that something was always there. The reason being is because even in our universe time is flexible. It speeds up when moving slower and also when further away from large masses as the larger the gravity the slower time moves. It slows down moving faster and when around large gravitational masses.

So, time is irrelevant and merely just an aspect of our universe. As a result, shouldn't the universe beyond what we see be timeless? If it is, then everything was always there. Even if there was an intelligence behind it it would not have been created, it was always there, plain and simple.

Again, not saying I believe in any standard stereotypical God(s), because I do not. But, I personally feel even if the universe itself is intelligent and we simply call it "nature" it can still be looked upon and having some form of intelligent design behind it.

Many thousands of years ago the idea of invisible micro-organisms would've been scoffed at. That's because there was no way to detect them at the time. Of course there was evidence of them, but the people of the time didn't know how to interpret it. Just because we can't detect any "current" physical presence of intelligence that led to the universes creation does not necessarily mean it simply isn't/never was there.

Just some food for thought. I'm enjoying this conversation and am glad it hasn't gotten out of hand as they usually do, and sadly probably will eventually lol.


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Unread 08-14-2011, 05:38 PM   #64
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I'm enjoying this conversation and am glad it hasn't gotten out of hand as they usually do, and sadly probably will eventually lol.
I know. It sucks that religious threads never stay open
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Unread 08-14-2011, 05:40 PM   #65
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Yes, but while there is no "direct physical" evidence of God do you not think the order in the universe suggests some form of intelligent design?
I don't think the apparent "order" in the universe is any indication of a creator. However, I don't subscribe to the idea the universe is ordered at all so design element is a non-starter for me.

In fact, when just looking at individual organisms and looking at their mutations and adaptations, its clear that if there was a designer, they could have done a much better job designing things so they would function better.

As the to the universe itself, its readily apparent that it all derived in such a chaotic fashion that order itself is not a concept that comes to mind for me. Going to the subatomic level and looking at quantum particles, the lack of order becomes even more apparent.

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Unread 08-14-2011, 05:55 PM   #66
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Absence of evidence never means something does not exist.
This is absolutely true, and the inverse is actually the basis for my thought process on whether or not I would have imagined a god, knowing what I know and having no reason to imagine one.

I would like to make a point with that statement as well. Many people don't really grasp the idea of the scientific method and so can see that statement and think it would apply. In theory, it does, but it would never come into play as the basis of the scientific method is to follow the evidence and make theories based on the evidence you have. As you acquire more evidence, it will allow you to prove or deny all or part of the theory.

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Unread 08-14-2011, 08:52 PM   #67
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Why can't people let just other people believe whatever they want to and just leave it at that? I mean seriously if you want to believe in God fine , if not that is fine too. Just let people do whatever they want to.
That, I believe, is the point of the combination of freedom of religion and of governmental powers not being used to impose one group's religious views on another. As to why there were three threads on SS.org where people couldn't just let other believe (Christian extremist in Norway, book banning, Bible-belt sheriff), that's open to debate.

I believe the most powerful amendment to the Constitution is freedom of speech, and one can look at the past 100 years of history and see how being able to ban information helps keep certain viewpoints or individuals on top. Being exposed to information which refutes dogma is too dangerous to the dogma's acceptance.

Book bannings. Preventing two consenting adults from marrying. It's not so easy for some to just respect others' rights, especially when defending certain beliefs... even when respecting the rights of others is a core value of, say, Jesus. It's not the fault of Jesus, poor guy, but of the fundamentalists who ignore him.

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 08-16-2011, 06:48 AM   #68
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I've been raised catholic and still question a lot. Keep in mind that without religion, regardless of the bad things, we may have never had rules or believes to protect and cherish whatsoever.

The more I obtain from science, the more I doubt all these little things.

However, there is no proof for nothing. Even science is just a piece of mind we build on. Just because some ass invented the numeric system with maths and all that, we all go by it Is it "the" system? I guess not. We're restricted to the wisdom we've built up ourselves.

Remember how long we thought everything is based around the evolution theory? Now, that they found traces of animals living long before the evolution theory took place, that shit is refuted my friendZ. Still, there are schools teaching it their students.

Get to the borders of science, meaning the big bang, and try to explain it. If not, look for the explanation of scientists. If you're not gonna laugh, I pitty you

I'm open to everything. If someone has a standpoint on whatever scientific result and is desperate to send me the message, I'll listen and think about it. Even start to doubt my believes as always. But then go back to the big bang and laugh about all of it. Either my religion or science.

As long as you believe in something that is driving you, you should be fine!

Deep shit my friends. You should keep politics and religion out of this forum. There are other places. Amongst all the silly rules on this board, I thought this was the least thing to put on paper? oO
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Unread 08-16-2011, 09:04 AM   #69
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I've been raised catholic and still question a lot. Keep in mind that without religion, regardless of the bad things, we may have never had rules or believes to protect and cherish whatsoever.

The more I obtain from science, the more I doubt all these little things.

However, there is no proof for nothing. Even science is just a piece of mind we build on. Just because some ass invented the numeric system with maths and all that, we all go by it Is it "the" system? I guess not. We're restricted to the wisdom we've built up ourselves.

Remember how long we thought everything is based around the evolution theory? Now, that they found traces of animals living long before the evolution theory took place, that shit is refuted my friendZ. Still, there are schools teaching it their students.

Get to the borders of science, meaning the big bang, and try to explain it. If not, look for the explanation of scientists. If you're not gonna laugh, I pitty you

I'm open to everything. If someone has a standpoint on whatever scientific result and is desperate to send me the message, I'll listen and think about it. Even start to doubt my believes as always. But then go back to the big bang and laugh about all of it. Either my religion or science.

As long as you believe in something that is driving you, you should be fine!

Deep shit my friends. You should keep politics and religion out of this forum. There are other places. Amongst all the silly rules on this board, I thought this was the least thing to put on paper? oO
I...ummmmmm.....wat.

Okay, just a few things:

-Rules predate religion.

-There is, in fact, proof of "things".

-Just because the units of measurement are arbitrary, doesn't mean the formulas that we us them with are. We didn't invent math. We discovered it.

-What was that about the theory of evolution? What animals? When was the "theory of evolution" supposed to have taken place? Who refuted what?

-Why would we laugh at the borders of scientific understanding? And why the Big Bang, in particular?

-You said you're open to everything, then you state that you would listen to a theory and revert back to your religion, because it's one or the other... So...you're NOT open to everything... Or, rather: you're open to listening to other theories, but not open to changing your position if they conflict with your religion...

-Having some sort of belief system that drives you does not automatically make you fine. Hitler was rather driven, no?

-And then, finally, you enter in to a religious discussion by voicing your viewpoint and then finish it off by telling everyone they should keep this kind of discussion out of the forums? Is this not a bit hypocritical?
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Unread 08-16-2011, 09:23 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Nimgoble View Post
And then, finally, you enter in to a religious discussion by voicing your viewpoint and then finish it off by telling everyone they should keep this kind of discussion out of the forums? Is this not a bit hypocritical?
Even worse, we're being told what shouldn't be on the forum by a guy with 222 posts.


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Unread 08-16-2011, 09:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by atticmike View Post
I've been raised catholic and still question a lot. Keep in mind that without religion, regardless of the bad things, we may have never had rules or believes to protect and cherish whatsoever.
Just as Nimgoble asked, I'm wondering what animals you're referring to as existing before evolution. However, this bit I quote tells me you're unaware of the Code of Hammurabi, which predates anything you might quote as a religious origin for "the rules."
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Unread 08-16-2011, 11:03 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by atticmike View Post
I've been raised catholic and still question a lot. Keep in mind that without religion, regardless of the bad things, we may have never had rules or believes to protect and cherish whatsoever.

The more I obtain from science, the more I doubt all these little things.

However, there is no proof for nothing. Even science is just a piece of mind we build on. Just because some ass invented the numeric system with maths and all that, we all go by it Is it "the" system? I guess not. We're restricted to the wisdom we've built up ourselves.

Remember how long we thought everything is based around the evolution theory? Now, that they found traces of animals living long before the evolution theory took place, that shit is refuted my friendZ. Still, there are schools teaching it their students.

Get to the borders of science, meaning the big bang, and try to explain it. If not, look for the explanation of scientists. If you're not gonna laugh, I pitty you

I'm open to everything. If someone has a standpoint on whatever scientific result and is desperate to send me the message, I'll listen and think about it. Even start to doubt my believes as always. But then go back to the big bang and laugh about all of it. Either my religion or science.

As long as you believe in something that is driving you, you should be fine!

Deep shit my friends. You should keep politics and religion out of this forum. There are other places. Amongst all the silly rules on this board, I thought this was the least thing to put on paper? oO
This won't end well....I'll just say I think you should do a little research..then revisit your statements.
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