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Unread 01-23-2011, 09:53 PM   #1
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Curiosity seeks to annihilate itself.

One of my favorite sites. Just "rediscovered" it, after a manner of speaking. These things are simple to understand and yet very, very hard to put into practice. Everyone thinks that "other people" are the ones who are guilty of bias.

Twelve Virtues of Rationality

Edit: I got the most amazing neg rep for this post.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 01:14 AM   #2
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Oh. My. God.

The Simple Truth

This is one of the best illustrations of what happens when people get wrapped up in representational systems, and then insist that the descriptive power of said system can also be used to alter what is being represented. Magical thinking, definitively and irrevocably skewered.

That was brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

*laugh*

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 01-24-2011, 01:32 AM   #3
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Okay, I just read through the Bayes introduction, and it's brilliant.

I'd rep you so long and hard that you'd have a hard time walking... but I can't rep you, due to having already thanked you for that initial post....

*laugh*

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

"Pay no attention to his long winded posts... (Explorer) seldomly knows what he's talking about."

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Unread 01-24-2011, 02:21 PM   #4
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Yeah, he's got some cool ideas. Also check out lesswrong.org for a lot of Bayesian rationalism and brain self-hacks and stuff. Lots of transhumanism/singularitarianism as well.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 02:27 PM   #5
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How did I know, as soon as I saw both of you rave about it, that it would be a wall of text?

I'll have to through it a little later.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 02:35 PM   #6
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Is there anything I can get out of this that I haven't already had from "Demon Haunted World?"
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Unread 01-24-2011, 03:48 PM   #7
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Is there anything I can get out of this that I haven't already had from "Demon Haunted World?"
Haven't heard of it. Book?

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Unread 01-24-2011, 03:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
Oh. My. God.

The Simple Truth

This is one of the best illustrations of what happens when people get wrapped up in representational systems, and then insist that the descriptive power of said system can also be used to alter what is being represented. Magical thinking, definitively and irrevocably skewered.

That was brilliant. Thanks for sharing.

*laugh*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliezer Yudkowsky
“Did you consider using divination sticks? Divination sticks are infallible, or at least, anyone who says they are fallible is burned at the stake. This is an extremely painful way to die; it follows that divination sticks are infallible.”
Bahaha.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 04:07 PM   #9
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Haven't heard of it. Book?
Carl Sagan's opus on critical thinking.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 04:42 PM   #10
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Yeah, pretty much the same thing from a different angle. More specifics.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:13 PM   #11
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This was an awesome quick read.

Maybe this will actually help me when my girlfriend asks me why I question and have to know "why" about everything. And why I argue using "facts" over "emotion".

Thanks for this site. I'm going to eventually read through all of these.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:16 PM   #12
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This thread is chock full of win.

I raise my glass to you gentlemen

What happened to Jeff? Funny how he dropped off the radar now that the entire Western world disagrees with his right wing bullshit.
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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:27 PM   #13
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Maybe this will actually help me when my girlfriend asks me why I question and have to know "why" about everything. And why I argue using "facts" over "emotion".
All that will ensure is that your sleeping on the couch will last longer
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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:30 PM   #14
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Maybe this will actually help me when my girlfriend asks me why I question and have to know "why" about everything. And why I argue using "facts" over "emotion".
I question absolutely EVERYTHING presented to me. I do my best to explain to my girlfriend why I do this and I often make fun of myself for doing it. She understands that it's the way I am and because I don't make my ego a fortress, she doesn't see it as a threat

What happened to Jeff? Funny how he dropped off the radar now that the entire Western world disagrees with his right wing bullshit.
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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Violence View Post
Maybe this will actually help me when my girlfriend asks me why I question and have to know "why" about everything. And why I argue using "facts" over "emotion".
Quote:
I question absolutely EVERYTHING presented to me. I do my best to explain to my girlfriend why I do this and I often make fun of myself for doing it. She understands that it's the way I am and because I don't make my ego a fortress, she doesn't see it as a threat
This is exactly the sort of attitude you need to fight (not saying I don't do it too, it happens to EVERYONE).

Here: http://wiki.lesswrong.co/wiki/Map_an...%28sequence%29

Not to be a dick, guys, but it's really easy to read something like that and then pat yourself on the back for already "being like that," or develop a "patter" that includes statements of contrition for your own bias (I'm more prone to the latter, myself -- see?).

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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:56 PM   #16
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I'm just stating what seems to work for me now, I am fully open to new wisdom and will accept it at the earliest stage that I can

...or is this also a pat on the back?

What happened to Jeff? Funny how he dropped off the radar now that the entire Western world disagrees with his right wing bullshit.
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Unread 01-24-2011, 05:59 PM   #17
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^


The other horrible mistake is to take it too seriously.

I doubt we have a problem with that one here.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 06:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by failshredder View Post
^


The other horrible mistake is to take it too seriously.

I doubt we have a problem with that one here.
Quite rly

What happened to Jeff? Funny how he dropped off the radar now that the entire Western world disagrees with his right wing bullshit.
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Unread 01-24-2011, 07:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by failshredder View Post
This is exactly the sort of attitude you need to fight (not saying I don't do it too, it happens to EVERYONE).

Here: http://wiki.lesswrong.co/wiki/Map_an...%28sequence%29

Not to be a dick, guys, but it's really easy to read something like that and then pat yourself on the back for already "being like that," or develop a "patter" that includes statements of contrition for your own bias (I'm more prone to the latter, myself -- see?).
I think you mean to say we need to fight that attitude to adhere to this completely.

I more meant it that I can use this to help explain myself than me getting mad because someone is telling me I'm "too logical". Because I get infuriated. I start being mean and biased when someone shows me the same wall of stubborn bullshit.

Trust me, I understand. It's just hard to fight that good feeling when you can finally relate something to yourself like that. Pride takes over a little, like you said. I think it's okay to an extent. I'd be lying if I didn't read it and go "FINALLY someone who GETS what I've been trying to say!"


While I admire all of these points, I find it hard to not have feelings about a topic before I finish processing them. I think it's natural. I usually come back down to reality after getting heated. It's hard to block out emotion when you are overrun with rage. I easily get heated when someone makes a claim and has no reason whatsoever other than "because that's what I think". Then I'm just mean. It's not right, but at least I know I'm doing it.



You're right, but I don't think anyone has it in them to be perfect logic machines.


And no, we don't take ourselves too seriously here. But it makes me feel good that a thread like this exists and we can still make dick jokes.


EDIT:
Also, your link is broken. Needs to be ".com"

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Unread 01-24-2011, 07:26 PM   #20
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How did I know, as soon as I saw both of you rave about it, that it would be a wall of text?
Now *that* was funny. Am I really so long-winded?

Oh, *that's* right... my long-winded posts have been commented on before. *laugh*

I don't know if the following, from the same site but presented in friendly cartoon fashion, is any more readable, but it was funny to see a formal proof expressed in cartoon form. This compares favorably to the interesting explorations of formal systems of "Godel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid" on any day.

http://yudkowsky.net/rational/lobs-theorem

And, with that said, "GEB: an EGB" is another exploration of emergent systems with regard to consciousness, so it shouldn't surprise me to see similarities between that book and the writings on this website.

----

Lastly, let me express surprise that I would never have expected to be talking about formal and emergent systems on SS.org. Will surprises never cease? *laugh*

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 01-24-2011, 07:30 PM   #21
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Funny you should mention "emergence" -- Yudkowsky is a reductionist and thus a staunch enemy of the very /word/ "emergent." His logic makes sense to me, although my education is in the Russian language, not cognitive science.

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Unread 01-24-2011, 07:41 PM   #22
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He may not like the idea of emergent systems, but systems with emergent qualities happen with even a minimal group of rules. I remember witnessing some strange form of territorialism in a robotics experiment, which was definitely not in the simple rules assigned to the robots. That forever forced upon me the realization that complex properties can come out of a few simple rules.

In fact, even a simple example like John Conway's Game of Life has emergent properties.

I can understand how some are uncomfortable with emergence, as it does seem like magic. However, I believe that a lot of cognitive scientists are starting to think of the mind/consciousness as what the brain *does*, and that the mind emerges in the same way that an anthill appears to move with a united purpose, even though none of the individual parts of that anthill might have the clarity of purpose visible at the highest organization level which we humans can perceive.

Okay, now I'm adding to Randy's claimed "wall of text." *laugh* I'm done for now.

----

Or, I will be in a moment, as I forgot one last thing.

That piece of neg rep you got seems like trolling. Report it, and the mods will look into the person who posted it. If that person has a habit of trolling, one more exhibition of that habit may trigger some action on the part of the mods.

And, if that person is just starting to troll, this will still put attention on the person.

Cheers!

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 01-24-2011, 08:46 PM   #23
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I think the neg rep is pretty hilarious and can stay, for all I care.

Yudkowsky's counter to your argument about emergent properties, Explorer, would be that emergent properties so far have always wound up being explained by the interactions of the various parts. Keep in mind his field of study is strong AI.

And look at it from the other direction: if we were building a universe (just bear with me, heh) and we created, say, a few lots of quarks, and then just decided to see what happened, everything that is would be an emergent property from our point of view. So it just seems like shorthand for "we don't understand it (yet)" to me.

(Disclaimer: IANAS. I Am Not A Scientist.)

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Unread 01-24-2011, 09:56 PM   #24
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That strong emergence would have a non-obvious but completely nuts-and-bolts explanation is an idea which completely blows my mind, in the same way I first felt giddy and very upset when I first started learning quantum physics. The idea is so non-intuitive that it makes me fearful of what may be embedded in the nature of space-time, waiting to be unravelled.

Remember when you first learned that space-time would "act" to "protect" the speed of light as a constant? It's that same over-the-first-hill rollercoaster feeling.

I love this universe in which we live. Who can seriously, with a straight face, argue that atheists and agnostics can't feel wonder?

If you don't care enough to research your own question, why should anyone else care more?

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Unread 01-25-2011, 06:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
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Remember when you first learned that space-time would "act" to "protect" the speed of light as a constant? It's that same over-the-first-hill rollercoaster feeling.

I love this universe in which we live. Who can seriously, with a straight face, argue that atheists and agnostics can't feel wonder?
+1 Internets to you, sir; we are an incestuous orgy of rep.


I wish I had learned some basic math skills in high school: made it beyond algebra and geometry and gotten to trig and calc. I'd have an easier time understanding this stuff then. But it was not meant to be, alas, alack.

Also, for a rip-trollingly good time, you may find this amusing: Insomnia | Videogame Culture

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