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Unread 08-09-2010, 11:16 PM   #76
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well said.
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Unread 08-12-2010, 03:19 AM   #77
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I agree with eegor. If the move to fanaticism in the Christian religion never happened and people really were as great as Jesus was said to be, you could walk right up to a Christian and have a conversation about how they are from the Christian persuasion and how You are an Atheist and it would all be very pleasant. I don't think the hypocrisy and bigottry is going to end any time soon guys.

With all due respect to eegor - One would have liked all of this Religiosity to be dead and gone. If the whole earth consisted of Rationalists, I think we would be a very peaceful race...although without conflict of religion, beliefs, race and politics - Humans wouldn't be the expressive, sentient beings they are today.


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Unread 08-13-2010, 11:16 AM   #78
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I agree with eegor. If the move to fanaticism in the Christian religion never happened and people really were as great as Jesus was said to be, you could walk right up to a Christian and have a conversation about how they are from the Christian persuasion and how You are an Atheist and it would all be very pleasant. I don't think the hypocrisy and bigottry is going to end any time soon guys.

With all due respect to eegor - One would have liked all of this Religiosity to be dead and gone. If the whole earth consisted of Rationalists, I think we would be a very peaceful race...although without conflict of religion, beliefs, race and politics - Humans wouldn't be the expressive, sentient beings they are today.


So what you're saying is...

...religion is a necessary evil?
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Unread 08-13-2010, 11:19 AM   #79
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I think it's a necessary evil to an extent, but I don't think it's the key to us being expressive sentient beings.



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Unread 08-16-2010, 12:08 AM   #80
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So what you're saying is...

...religion is a necessary evil?
Kind of...though if we had been rationalists since the first tribe of homo erectus, I don't think we'd have metal

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Unread 08-16-2010, 05:32 AM   #81
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Well said, eegor.

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I think it's a necessary evil to an extent, but I don't think it's the key to us being expressive sentient beings.
I definitely agree that religion is not essential to us being, as it has been said, "expressive sentient beings", but as far as being a necessary evil, i wouldn't say that's true per se. Rather than fully-structured religion, i would say that the moral aspects of it, such as basic guidelines for living (e.g. discouraging any type of malicious acts) and being taught sympathy and respect for your fellow man (and other lifeforms) are what I would consider the requirements for a peaceful, civilized society.


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Kind of...though if we had been rationalists since the first tribe of homo erectus, I don't think we'd have metal

True! I hadn't thought of that.
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Unread 08-16-2010, 05:49 AM   #82
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So what you're saying is...

...religion is a necessary evil?
Maybe for people who need a crutch, can't think for themselves, or both.

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just chill out dude.

honestly, it's not that big a deal.

our old lead vocalist is a strict (and vocal) atheist and still prayed with us out of RESPECT. he doesn;t believei n god, But he understands that for other families prayer is a big bonding thing.

so if anything, just do it to humor your mom, because she IS your mom and at least deserves a little respect.

if you're phoning it in or not, i really doubt mama will care. haha, and if she can tell, then i dunno what else to tell you. i considered the God thing a fairytale from age 15-18, until i sat and looked stuff up. and mom's a strict christian, i just kept it up because i'm going to be respectful ( and keep the heat off my back)

now that i'm 21, mom doesn't care. I still go to church, but it's in case people behind the scenes need my help wit shit.

its not a huge deal homie. fake it for mom, but believe what you believe.

you won't melt if you say a few prayers you don't even attach any meaning to. lol
So, he should pray with them out of respect, when they can't respect his decision? .... that.

Be firm with her. You don't need to be an asshole, but just be firm, stand your ground, and ignore her when she tries to start shit.
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Unread 08-16-2010, 07:14 AM   #83
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So, he should pray with them out of respect, when they can't respect his decision? .... that.

Be firm with her. You don't need to be an asshole, but just be firm, stand your ground, and ignore her when she tries to start shit.
I agree, but I can see why Tre said what he said.

While he shouldn't be forced to have to go to church or pray if neither hold any significance to him personally, the fact is that he's 15, and unless he's got a pretty good head start, he's gonna be living under that roof for the next couple of years. From what he posted (i mean no offense, TechCoreRiffMan, just referring to what you said), the way portrayed his mom made it sound as though she's pretty close-minded and dismissive of what he has to say. With that in mind, i wouldn't really think it would be worth making a huge deal over. Basically, as Tre said, try to keep the heat off his back.

Now, Tre mentioned he prayed with his bandmates out of respect, which i can totally understand. I did the same when I played baseball. It wasn't about conforming, it was about letting everyone know that you're pulling from the same rope.

Like I said, I do agree with you JJ, and I definitely think he should be firm. If his dad has his back, I don't think he'll have a hard time getting his mom to respect his wishes.
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Unread 08-16-2010, 07:16 AM   #84
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when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.

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Unread 08-16-2010, 07:45 AM   #85
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when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.
This is the best stance to take. Don't be militant about it, unless push comes to shove.

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I agree, but I can see why Tre said what he said.

While he shouldn't be forced to have to go to church or pray if neither hold any significance to him personally, the fact is that he's 15, and unless he's got a pretty good head start, he's gonna be living under that roof for the next couple of years. From what he posted (i mean no offense, TechCoreRiffMan, just referring to what you said), the way portrayed his mom made it sound as though she's pretty close-minded and dismissive of what he has to say. With that in mind, i wouldn't really think it would be worth making a huge deal over. Basically, as Tre said, try to keep the heat off his back.

Now, Tre mentioned he prayed with his bandmates out of respect, which i can totally understand. I did the same when I played baseball. It wasn't about conforming, it was about letting everyone know that you're pulling from the same rope.

Like I said, I do agree with you JJ, and I definitely think he should be firm. If his dad has his back, I don't think he'll have a hard time getting his mom to respect his wishes.
I still wouldn't give in. Maybe that's just me, I can't submit blindly to authority, maybe that's why I'm not religious to begin with

If his dad has his back, then yeah, I don't think he'll have too many problems, but I wouldn't give in. I like sleeping in on Sundays too much
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Unread 08-16-2010, 09:13 AM   #86
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This is the best stance to take. Don't be militant about it, unless push comes to shove.



I still wouldn't give in. Maybe that's just me, I can't submit blindly to authority, maybe that's why I'm not religious to begin with

If his dad has his back, then yeah, I don't think he'll have too many problems, but I wouldn't give in. I like sleeping in on Sundays too much
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Unread 08-16-2010, 01:32 PM   #87
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I'm atheist and i love it. The fact that people base all their religious beliefs on a book people wrote blows my mind (Christians anyways). I understand most people need something to believe in, but not me. It's all a scam to take your money, and for what so you can pay to confess your sins? If i give money to the church i want them to use it help poor people, but when they use it for cover-ups that's a whole other story. I went to church for 12 years and i can never see myself going again, just for that fact i think it is waste of time and money, ie if you want to go to a catholic church they take 10% of your whole pay check (every paycheck), when you die, if you want to get buried in the catholic cemetery they take 10% of you estate. So you pay your whole life and then you pay even when your dead . its like a never ending money pit. And pretty much 95% of the Catholic's i know (using them as an example cause their arnt to many other around me) are the biggest hypocrites i know, oh wait i forgot...their sins get washed away once a week. And beside thats, science is much more logical to me... all i have to say is evolution!

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Unread 08-16-2010, 09:57 PM   #88
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i simply cant stand people who push their views and opinions on either side, both christian and atheists. its not right for them push god on us but at the same time we cant sit there and tell them they are stupid for what they believe in, that just doing what we say we hate about them. let shit be. if you dont believe fine, i dont, but im not going to tell someone they are dumb for beleiving in something that makes them feel better. as i would hope they wont say im dumb for not see things their way.
the more we fight about this the less chance we have for a change in the whole matter, cant come to an understanding if its a constant fight.
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Unread 08-16-2010, 10:25 PM   #89
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JJ, my dad has my back, but he doesn't have much say around here. He's almost always at work. (12 hour swing shift, so he's either working or asleep) So his help doesn't really help much.

Just a quick example though, my mom and I had just had ANOTHER argument. And I said that I would like it if she would just respect my decision as much as I try to respect hers. Later that night she made me come into the family room from playing guitar and lead prayer. Like, not a recited prayer, but sit down, with the whole family and thank her magical sky wizard for everything good in my life. Then she said to pray for stuff that should get better. I said "And I pray for tolerance in our household, Amen" and left. I know that's a dick move, but if she's not going to respect me, I shouldn't respect her either I feel like.

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Unread 08-17-2010, 06:41 AM   #90
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i simply cant stand people who push their views and opinions on either side, both christian and atheists. its not right for them push god on us but at the same time we cant sit there and tell them they are stupid for what they believe in, that just doing what we say we hate about them. let shit be. if you dont believe fine, i dont, but im not going to tell someone they are dumb for beleiving in something that makes them feel better. as i would hope they wont say im dumb for not see things their way.
the more we fight about this the less chance we have for a change in the whole matter, cant come to an understanding if its a constant fight.
If it were a political matter, where yammering on both sides ensures that the longer the dialog the less helpful it will be, I would feel the same way.

Religion is different. Throughout history, we have constantly been driven toward the precipice of extinction by opposing factions in what amounts to spiritual pissing matches. I am not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish yet I am very aware that my interests- including my safety- may (if not already) be harmed in the crossfire between those groups. I am not a religious person, but I could die in a terrorist attack or because of an act of war that was green-lighted by a religious fanatic. That doesn't sit well.

Since religions can't keep their hands to themselves and insist on insisting themselves on the world, I only think it's fair and necessary for atheism to be more than just a passive position. Atheism is not a religion unto itself and it's not even an ideology, but there needs to be a counterbalance to religion that reminds it that its existence is an indulgence to our superstitions and knocks it down a few pegs when it gets too big for its ontological britches.

There is a big world outside of religion, and those of us who want to live in that world would rather not have religion disturb it or (more likely) destroy it.

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Unread 08-17-2010, 07:54 AM   #91
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when i´m dining with a christian family, and it´s prayer time, i just sit in silence while they do their thing. should they ask, i´ll just tell them i´m not religious, and therefore don´t pray. if they want me to keep respecting their religion, they´ll have to respect me not having one. it´s as simple as that.
Funny... I choose not to accept a religion at the moment for various reasons. My family seems to like to try to subconsciously drill it into my head anyway. Whenever we go out to restaurants they always want to bow their heads, hold hands and pray and I feel very odd doing this as I don't believe in anything the prayer says. What's more, if God is real I don't think you *have* to publicly proclaim your faith constantly to gain his/her/its favor... Then again, how would I know?

My parents know I don't believe in God and while they try to act cool w/ it they're clearly not. All they talk about is wanting me to come to church w/ them and when I have kids to make sure they know about God. Drives me batty but I figure as long as I don't say anything offensive I can pretty much just "ignore" it.

@Dem- I dig what you're saying, but realistically we all live in the same world. Trying to divide ourselves into separate worlds that counterbalance each other rather than trying to find a way to peacefully coexist despite differences in opinion will only perpetuate the problem, in my eyes.



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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:29 PM   #92
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JJ, my dad has my back, but he doesn't have much say around here. He's almost always at work. (12 hour swing shift, so he's either working or asleep) So his help doesn't really help much.

Just a quick example though, my mom and I had just had ANOTHER argument. And I said that I would like it if she would just respect my decision as much as I try to respect hers. Later that night she made me come into the family room from playing guitar and lead prayer. Like, not a recited prayer, but sit down, with the whole family and thank her magical sky wizard for everything good in my life. Then she said to pray for stuff that should get better. I said "And I pray for tolerance in our household, Amen" and left. I know that's a dick move, but if she's not going to respect me, I shouldn't respect her either I feel like.
like i was trying to get across the last timne adressed it, it sounds like it doesn;t have all that much to do with religion...

it just sounds like your mom is making you do something you don't want to do because you don't believe in it, so it pisses you off.

i'm willing to bet it would be the same thing if you were democrat and she made you go to republican meetings/rallies with her

or if you wanted a PC, and she refused to buy you a computer from anywhere but the apple store.

i'm not saying that you're wrong for disagreeing, don't get me wrong. you're allowed to think and feel how you want.

but you're in your teen years. disagreeing with your parents is just kinda... what happens. o___o

also, @Demiurge, keep in mind that religion isn;t the cause of a lot of the wars, the cause for wars was extremism and good public speaking.

...every group that spurred extremists had a charismatic public leader who was good at twisting the text around to their own agenda and brainwashing the masses into THINKING it was for religion.

case in point: keep in mind that the worst mass genocide ever, the Holocaust was not spurred by Religion, nor did they persecute solely on religion. it was a nationality thing, and Hitler twisted words around because of immigration to

"hey, we're blonde bluwe-eyed people, why are there turks and jews and immigrants taking all of our jobs and money? LET'S TAKE IT BACK"

...that sounded eerily like the american south for a minute there o____O

so the whole " religion causes war thing Is kind of a moot point.

the only exception being the Crusades, but even in that instance it was using the religion as a forefront when the actual cause was LAND ACQUISITION.

so if anything, religion is more of a scapegoat for war than a source.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:37 PM   #93
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like i was trying to get across the last timne adressed it, it sounds like it doesn;t have all that much to do with religion...

it just sounds like your mom is making you do something you don't want to do because you don't believe in it, so it pisses you off.

i'm willing to bet it would be the same thing if you were democrat and she made you go to republican meetings/rallies with her

or if you wanted a PC, and she refused to buy you a computer from anywhere but the apple store.

i'm not saying that you're wrong for disagreeing, don't get me wrong. you're allowed to think and feel how you want.

but you're in your teen years. disagreeing with your parents is just kinda... what happens. o___o

also, @Demiurge, keep in mind that religion isn;t the cause of a lot of the wars, the cause for wars was extremism and good public speaking.

...every group that spurred extremists had a charismatic public leader who was good at twisting the text around to their own agenda and brainwashing the masses into THINKING it was for religion.

case in point: keep in mind that the worst mass genocide ever, the Holocaust was not spurred by Religion, nor did they persecute solely on religion. it was a nationality thing, and Hitler twisted words around because of immigration to

"hey, we're blonde bluwe-eyed people, why are there turks and jews and immigrants taking all of our jobs and money? LET'S TAKE IT BACK"

...that sounded eerily like the american south for a minute there o____O

so the whole " religion causes war thing Is kind of a moot point.

the only exception being the Crusades, but even in that instance it was using the religion as a forefront when the actual cause was LAND ACQUISITION.

so if anything, religion is more of a scapegoat for war than a source.
Nice assessment.



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Unread 08-17-2010, 01:54 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Konfyouzd View Post
Nice assessment.
I Tried.

i mean, i don't have an issue with disagreement, it's how sjit gets DONE and settled, but especially on internet forums, so many people make baseless, ignorant, uninformed and downright, disrespectful comments to others.

I was reading something where even through a screenname, the anonymity of the internet make you view others as though they are not human, and sometimes statements ring out as such.

people suddenly lose perspective of the humanity of other people

and while i see religious people saying silly untrue and disrespectful things about atheists, it is by far more the atheists i see stating actual ATTACKING statements.

I'm neither Religious nor an atheist or agnostic. i don't subscribe to anything, I have my own developed Theism / theological identity.

i just think it's terrible that when you combine religion and anonymity, we all become apes.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 02:10 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Nights_Blood View Post
No. That is agnosticism. Atheism is very specifically the rejection of the existence of gods, which means that they are NOT open to being convinced otherwise. So in a sense, atheism DOES resemble religion, even if it is by definition, an anti-religion.

Which is precisely why I am agnostic. Atheists will ridicule any form of deity worship, but I fail to see how one can just say that there is absolutely no form of higher power and leave it at that. Personally, I think there's way too much unexplainable shit that happens to be sure one way or the other. I mean.......ing quasars are INSANE man.
Had to stop reading the thread and reply here.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

While yes, atheism is the active denial of a god, it is impossibly thick to suggest that we wouldn't accept evidence in the positive, if it was valid.

Atheism is level on a sliding scale of theistic probability, as suggested by Richard Dawkins, where at the most committed end, you have what would be a 7 of 7, where you won't take anything other than absolute proof of god's existence; essentially you know there is no god, and short of being proven entirely wrong, you will continue to know there is no god. Dawkins, myself and many other atheists would be a 6 of 7. The existence of god is so improbable as to approach zero, but because there is not absolute proof of the lack of his existence, only a large amount of evidence, it cannot be completely discounted. However, as a 6, the probability of his lack of existence is so high in my mind that I live as though he does not exist until the scales tip well in the direction of the positive.

To quote about true impartial agnosticism as it compares to a higher scale of agnostic atheism, I'd quote Dawkins again:

"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

Much like the celestial teapot theory (there is a teapot orbiting the earth but it is too small to be seen by anybody and no current science can prove its existence), these fairies, just like god, could exist, but it's so unlikely without having some way to provide evidence of it other than another person's word, that I do not abide it as truth.


Give this a read:

Spectrum of theistic probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Unread 08-17-2010, 02:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by helly View Post
Had to stop reading the thread and reply here.

Wrong, wrong wrong.

While yes, atheism is the active denial of a god, it is impossibly thick to suggest that we wouldn't accept evidence in the positive, if it was valid.

Atheism is level on a sliding scale of theistic probability, as suggested by Richard Dawkins, where at the most committed end, you have what would be a 7 of 7, where you won't take anything other than absolute proof of god's existence; essentially you know there is no god, and short of being proven entirely wrong, you will continue to know there is no god. Dawkins, myself and many other atheists would be a 6 of 7. The existence of god is so improbable as to approach zero, but because there is not absolute proof of the lack of his existence, only a large amount of evidence, it cannot be completely discounted. However, as a 6, the probability of his lack of existence is so high in my mind that I live as though he does not exist until the scales tip well in the direction of the positive.

To quote about true impartial agnosticism as it compares to a higher scale of agnostic atheism, I'd quote Dawkins again:

"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

Much like the celestial teapot theory (there is a teapot orbiting the earth but it is too small to be seen by anybody and no current science can prove its existence), these fairies, just like god, could exist, but it's so unlikely without having some way to provide evidence of it other than another person's word, that I do not abide it as truth.


Give this a read:

Spectrum of theistic probability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
+rep

thanks for the post, and for not attacking anyone. haha.
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Unread 08-17-2010, 03:12 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by TreKita View Post
I Tried.

i mean, i don't have an issue with disagreement, it's how sjit gets DONE and settled, but especially on internet forums, so many people make baseless, ignorant, uninformed and downright, disrespectful comments to others.

I was reading something where even through a screenname, the anonymity of the internet make you view others as though they are not human, and sometimes statements ring out as such.

people suddenly lose perspective of the humanity of other people

and while i see religious people saying silly untrue and disrespectful things about atheists, it is by far more the atheists i see stating actual ATTACKING statements.

I'm neither Religious nor an atheist or agnostic. i don't subscribe to anything, I have my own developed Theism / theological identity.

i just think it's terrible that when you combine religion and anonymity, we all become apes.
Truth. Words from a clearly self-enlightened man who has done his own homework.

Having read this entire thread due to a pressing desire to blow off my job, I'll make the general comment that more people should follow Tre's path and make their own assesments before accepting general statements as truth. I've been heavily into this process myself for about 4 months now (partially due to the above mentioned need to blow off actual work...haha). There's a SHITLOAD of information out there on Atheism, Christianity, Buddhism, Kabbalah, Quantum Physics, Evolution...all kinds of "what the hell is all this" info. Hop-to!

Of course, finding good sources can be tricky, so cross-referencing all of the above is a necessary evil. Keep an open mind!
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Unread 08-18-2010, 09:02 PM   #98
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Unread 08-27-2010, 01:14 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by envenomedcky View Post
... but somehow, religious people can never leave me alone about my beliefs. It's quite annoying.
Many religions encourage their worshipers to convert non-believers.
Ever bump into some Jehova's Witnesses?
Those guys are practically famous for pestering people.



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Unread 08-27-2010, 03:18 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Ľour_Bass View Post
Many religions encourage their worshipers to convert non-believers.
Ever bump into some Jehova's Witnesses?
Those guys are practically famous for pestering people.
No.

I have actually never, EVER, seen a Jehovah's Witness with my own two eyes

(´・ω・`)

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