Chords to scale - yet another dumbass question -

[ralphy1976]

So, thanks to many of you i understand a bit more about tuning, chords, etc..

Now, my new state of brain freeze is to do with chords to scale. For example :

C major scale and its chords. So in C major scale, the notes are : C D E F G A B, but the chords are C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

And my question is why and / or how? and for that matter i have the same problem with all the scales / chords. so let's keep it simple please, and stick to major scales.

I understand that a minor chords in a scale maybe a major chord in another one, but i had assumed that the major scale of C was "the" scale upon which things are based (possibly wrongly assumed)

So, any help will be gratelly appreciated. thank you for your patience too.

Ralphy

[liquidcow]

A minor chord is always a minor chord and vice versa. The reason a chord is minor or major is because of its third. So to start with the C major chord, that will be comprised of the first, C, the third, E, and the fifth, G. Now if you look at the distance between C and E you'll find that it's two whole tones (or four semitones if you like), which is a major third, hence we have a major chord.

Now take the D chord, which again is comprised of the first, D, the third, F, and the fifth, A. Now the difference between the first and the third is three semitones (or a tone and a half), which is a minor third, hence we have a minor chord.

I assume that's what you were getting at...

[ralphy1976]

thanks liquid cow, yes i knew that, which i am quite please with, at least i know something.

My post is about the scale and the chords within the scale, why are those chords in the scale, what are the rules?

C Major scale notes are C D E F G A B

but

C Major scale chords progression is C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

and i can not work out why. Any ideas?

[Fikealox]

Basically, you 'stack thirds', so you'd go...

C major scale = C D E F G A B C

Chord I: C E G
Chord ii: D F A
Chord iii: E G B
Chord IV: F A C
Chord V: G B D
Chord vi: A C E
Chord vii(dim): B D F

Working with any major scale you'll get the following formula: I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim). Where the upper case numerals are major chords, the lower case numberals are minor, and the (dim) is diminished.

A minor scale will give you the same formula but starting from the vi. This is where relative major/minor comes in.

To get 7th chords, you simply "stack another third"; so in the key of C, the I chord would become C E G B, the ii chord would become D F A C, etc.

Basically, the I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim) formula is just a shorthand way of working out the most common, simplest triads which belong to a key. "C D E" is a perfectly valid chord, and natural to the key of C major, but you wont hear many people playing it...

Hope that helps, man. If you have want elaboration or further explanation, just ask

[ralphy1976]

thanks Fikealox i appreciate your time.

What i meant with my previous post was in a C major scale, why is the chords progression C Dm Em F G Am Bdim?

And upon what basic are chord progression created?

Thanks
Ralphy

[Fikealox]

Very simply, any combination of any notes in a given key will give you a chord, and the I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim) formula just gives you the most common, most euphonic, simplest of those chords (ignoring 'powerchords'). It's not an exhaustive list of the chords which can be made from a key, just the most common and arguably most useful.

If you mean 'how do you arrive at that formula?', it's just stacking thirds, which is starting at each note in the scale and skipping alternate notes.

So C D E F G A B C gives C major: C D E F G A B C, D minor: C D E F G A B C, etc.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but hopefully it helps.

[ralphy1976]

err...not yet there, sorry!!

So in C scale, the notes are C D E F G A B and using the triad theory i can make chords, major or minor, 7th ...etc...

So i thought that in the C major scale, the associated chord progression was simply C D E F G A B, but it turns out it is not according to this website

Chord Progressions

And look at D majod scale. the notes are D E F#/Gb G A B C#/Db (why??) and the associated chord progression is D Em F# G A Bm C#....why?

thanks for your time

[Fikealox]

Ohh, gotcha.

C D E F G A B are just the notes in the key of C (the C major scale). The (most common, simplest) chords in the key are C major, D minor, etc.

The second chord in C major is D minor (D F A). It can't be D major, 'cause D major needs an F# as its third, and the key of C doesn't contain an F#.

As for why scales contain the notes they do... it is because they conform to an 'interval pattern'. For the major scale, this pattern is wholestep, wholestep, halfstep, wholestep, wholestep, wholestep, halfstep.

So C major: C w D w E h F w G w A w B h C.
and D major: D w E w F# h G w A w B w C# h D.

Does that help? (Feel free to say it doesn't - I just don't want to waffle on unhelpfully, so I'll keep my posts short)

Originally Posted by ralphy1976

And look at D majod scale. the notes are D E F#/Gb G A B C#/Db (why??) and the associated chord progression is D Em F# G A Bm C#....why?

For the key of D major it's actually D, Em, F#m, G, A, Bm, and C#dim. I know it's just a typo, but it might be confusing if you glance back at it.

[ralphy1976]

ah!!!! sounds logical. Super. Let me think about this for a while and i am sure i will come back for some more. thanks for your time an explanation, i appreciate it.

Ralphy

ok....another brain freeze here, i am afraid.

So, joining all the info together, let's see.

And i am not going to cheat, or check, just to see if i understood what you told me :

Let's say Emajor scale :

w w h w w w
E F# G# A B C# D#
i ii iii iv v vi vii

and Emajor chord should be :

E G# B
i iii v

and looking at my guitar neck

E++-F-+----+-G-+--------
B++-C-+----+-D-+--------
G++G#+-A--+---+---------
D++---+-E--+---+---------
A++---+-B--+---+---------
E++-F-+----+-G-+---------

Ok, i did not cheat and this took me at least 5 minutes and it baffles me to think that some of you know this inside out and can just look at chords and practically "see" the answer..awesome!!!!

Thanks for your help guys i really appreciate it.

Ralphy

[NixerX]

its called stacking thirds.
Scale Degree: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 -7
Scale Notes: C - D - E - F - G - A - B
C Major 7

C
E
G
B

[HammerAndSickle]

Another mistake you seem to have made is calling the chords of the scale (I ii iii, etc) a progression. When in reality, very very very rarely will you see the progression I ii iii IV V vi viio I.

Those are simply the chords that the scale naturally makes. What sounds good, is subjective. Most common progressions are I IV V I. I V VI I, etc.

The way we "see" these easily, is simply because scales conform to patterns. I noticed your guitar neck example was at the nut and including open strings. I suggest actually doing it in a different position. Technically the notes are the same, but it's much easier to "see" intervals between strings when you start a scale on, say, the third fret. That way it makes a much more easily transposed (shifted between keys) shape.

[SchecterWhore]

Keys are built around a tonic pitch. The notes may change, but the patterns of chord construction are the same, and it goes:
I ii iii IV V vi viiº

So, in C major, CDEFGAB, the chords are Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj, Amin, and Bdim.

In F#, F# G# A# B C# D# E#, the chords are F#maj, G#min, A#min, Bmaj, C#maj, D#min, and E#dim.

Take away the note names, replace them with the numerical scale degrees of the notes in the scale, and you have 1maj, 2min, 3min, 4maj, 5maj, 6min, and 7dim.

Go one step further and replace the whole mess with roman numerals, big ones for major chords, small ones for minor chords, and small ones with a little "º" tacked at the end for diminished chords, and hallelujah, you have a chord scale formula for any major key.

Minor keys go i iiº III iv V VI viiº.
The V and viiº are made major and diminished, respectively, by the use of harmonic minor, a natural minor scale with a raised seventh degree. (ex: A harmonic minor, A B C D E F G#)