Math Metal how to

[theo]

A fun way to come up with rhythms that I love is as follows::

Open your drum program or guitar pro. Program in x amount of bars each consisting of whatever time signatures you want. Have a steady metronome pulse to help you keep time. Program in bass drum beats at random. Listen to it. Play with. Change it. Eventually you'll come up with an interesting pattern.

Then work some notes in.. You've only got 12 to choose from afterall, this should be the easiest part

[SirMyghin]

Originally Posted by ConnorGilks

OP, one of the best things you can do is learn to count them before learning to write them. Other than the obvious first step, listening to music with time signature changes a lot, to make things smooth you need to be able to count them in a steady tempo without anything else. Just sit there and count them. 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2.

Try that to start, you're basically counting a bar of 4/4, then a bar of 2/4. Maybe you wanna try going between 7/8 and 4/4 (8/8).

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

Now it sounds stupid, but just put on a metronome and set it so that there's no accented beat, and on each beat, count. It gets pretty easy after a while, and you'll be able to count odd signature changes quickly and easily.

Accents are an important part of time signature, and time signatures in 8 (and 16, so on) contain compound beats (+3, or SW's Takita), opposed to simple beat (SW's Taka).

A bar of 7/8 is not 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 (which is a bar of 7/4, 2+2+2+2+2+2+2 if dealing with 8th notes), it is 2+2+3, or 3+2+2, or 2+3+2. It has 3 beats, and they are not even.

8/8 is 3+3+2 or 2+3+3 or 3+2+3. Consequently 4/4 is not 8/8 (despite they would be if you were working with fractions). It is best not to confuse the two as one contains only simple beats (4/4) and the other compound and simple beats.

Learning to count properly does indeed go leagues, as it also has the plus of being able to identify whatever time signature an idea is in near instantly.

[SirMyghin]

double post

[ConnorGilks]

Honestly when teaching this to my students I found they all progressed quickly by using that method, rather than thinking of them as two separate entities. But yes, some people do find it easier to teach 7 as 4 and 3 or 5 as 3 and 2.

[SirMyghin]

It is a good starting point, just pointing out it is over simplified, as it doesn't capture the real meaning of the time signature. The beams in written music are the key to seeing it, typically. The overall point is, that a measure in 4 is simple beats, and a measure in 8 is complex beats, and the 2 are not equal. It is a very common mistake, but knowing how to count in properly greatly alters the execution.

[ConnorGilks]

Originally Posted by SirMyghin

It is a good starting point, just pointing out it is over simplified, as it doesn't capture the real meaning of the time signature. The beams in written music are the key to seeing it, typically. The overall point is, that a measure in 4 is simple beats, and a measure in 8 is complex beats, and the 2 are not equal. It is a very common mistake, but knowing how to count in properly greatly alters the execution.

See I do know how to count both ways, as I was taught to divide up the time signatures, but honestly when I'm playing a piece (especially when improvising) over an odd time signature, I feel like I really get the flow of that signature when I count the entire thing as one unit. Now I'm sure that's just preference but I feel like my lines are able to flow more when I'm thinking about the bar of 7 instead of two bars of 4 and 3. But that's just me.

[Konfyouzd]

^I do that too. My drummer told me I was wrong.

But it *does* work. Kinda like finding a common denominator w fractions.

[Varcolac]

Originally Posted by ConnorGilks

See I do know how to count both ways, as I was taught to divide up the time signatures, but honestly when I'm playing a piece (especially when improvising) over an odd time signature, I feel like I really get the flow of that signature when I count the entire thing as one unit. Now I'm sure that's just preference but I feel like my lines are able to flow more when I'm thinking about the bar of 7 instead of two bars of 4 and 3. But that's just me.

It's not bars, it's beats. They're still one unit. One-and-two-and-three-and-a. I count that as a bar of seven, two simple and one compound beat. Same way I'd count a bar of six as 'one-and-a-two-and-a', and see it as both six and two compound. Same with 15/8, 'one-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-four-and-five-and-six-and,' or any other permutation thereof. Thinking of it in terms of beats gives one a handle on the accents much more than counting through the whole thing as seven eighth notes of equal importance, I find.

Edit: I have nothing to add on the topic of writing mathcore. I'm just waiting for Schechterwhore's in-depth musical analysis of the Dillinger Escape Plan.

[Jacobine]

Originally Posted by theo

A fun way to come up with rhythms that I love is as follows::

Open your drum program or guitar pro. Program in x amount of bars each consisting of whatever time signatures you want. Have a steady metronome pulse to help you keep time. Program in bass drum beats at random. Listen to it. Play with. Change it. Eventually you'll come up with an interesting pattern.

Then work some notes in.. You've only got 12 to choose from afterall, this should be the easiest part

i was actually thinking that earlier today. ill give it a try soon

[Jacobine]

does it have to change up to be math metal? or can i just keep the whole som\ng one odd time sig and still be it?

[Jacobine]

Originally Posted by Varcolac

It's not bars, it's beats. They're still one unit. One-and-two-and-three-and-a. I count that as a bar of seven, two simple and one compound beat. Same way I'd count a bar of six as 'one-and-a-two-and-a', and see it as both six and two compound. Same with 15/8, 'one-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-four-and-five-and-six-and,' or any other permutation thereof. Thinking of it in terms of beats gives one a handle on the accents much more than counting through the whole thing as seven eighth notes of equal importance, I find.

Ill keep that in mind that helped alot with figuring shit out. thanks alot bro

[Varcolac]

Originally Posted by Jacobine

does it have to change up to be math metal? or can i just keep the whole som\ng one odd time sig and still be it?

It'd help us if you posted an example of the type of thing you'd like to be writing. One forum member's interpretation of "math metal" may be very different to your own.

I would say that in terms of the necessity of changing time signatures, it's what you make of it, and it's what sounds best first and foremost. If one riff in your predominately 7/8 song sounds better in 4/4, don't sweat it: if it sounds better do it. If you try to write something in 4/4 but it comes out in 6, don't worry. Use your own judgement and trust your ears. As for conforming to genre conventions, I don't listen to enough math metal to know if a song would be cast out of the fold for not being entirely in 23/16.

[SchecterWhore]

Yes, please post a song for us to tear apart.

Originally Posted by ConnorGilks

Honestly when teaching this to my students I found they all progressed quickly by using that method, rather than thinking of them as two separate entities. But yes, some people do find it easier to teach 7 as 4 and 3 or 5 as 3 and 2.

While there's nothing really wrong with counting "1 2 3 4 5 6 7", I've witnessed too many cases of people counting "one two three four five six sev-en", and one guy that auditioned for my band famously counted a measure of five out loud as "one two three four-- five--", so he was essentially doing this: ♪ ♪ ♪ ♩ ♩ (for those that can't see the symbols, it's three eighth notes followed by two quarter notes, which fills a measure of 7 rather than a measure of 5).

I generally prefer the takadoodies because they drastically cut down the amount of numbers you need to think of, and they more accurately approximate the way rhythm works (simple divisions and compound divisions). Try to keep this straight in your head:



Or this:



"One two three four five six seveneightninemghshfgcdfga!"

The taka's and takita's have a bit of a groove to them and roll off the tongue a little easier.

Much easier to look at:



And that kind of additive thinking makes it easier to do things like this:



And both of those rhythms occur at 3:58 here, where they are clearly heard conforming to those simple and compound divisions that are endemic to konnakol (the quintuplet requires that one hear a simple beat and then divide it into five equal parts - something that is more difficult to do if that last simple beat is heard as "12 13", and one has to subdivide it into 5).

Van Der Graaf Generator - Over The Hill

[7 Strings of Hate]

Tear this thing apart.

[ConnorGilks]

Originally Posted by Jacobine

does it have to change up to be math metal? or can i just keep the whole som\ng one odd time sig and still be it?

Honestly man, if you worried about trying to be mathcore, you're not writing properly. You can write whatever you want! That's what music is about, doing what YOU want. Whether or not it fits into the ridiculous lines of a certain genre or not doesn't matter. I write lots of djent style stuff in my "punk" music. =/ It's not djent, it's not punk, sometimes it's complete djunk, but it doesn't matter. I really enjoy it and that's what matters.

SW: I find getting over the hurtle of the word "7" much easier than learning a new series of syllables for counting everything, but to each his own. For some it's worth doing so.

[Ultraussie]

Just try not to "force" your riffs, I hate it when guys write 0-0-0---0-0-0--0-0-0----0- etc in 7/4 or 9/8 or whatever and think they're "so prog" or "so math".
I USED to come up with basicall anything but 4/4 and it worked but as I matured musically i just cant leave 4/4 or 9/8 3/4 etc.
Basically it has to flow.

[SchecterWhore]

SW: I find getting over the hurtle of the word "7" much easier than learning a new series of syllables for counting everything, but to each his own. For some it's worth doing so.

In the end, it's the correct rhythm that matters. Anyone reading through this should understand that these methods have a common purpose, and that one need not think that they must commit to one way of doing things. I personally use three or four ways of counting on a regular basis, depending on what work for that day. Knowledge can only help.

Originally Posted by 7 Strings of Hate

Tear this thing apart.

The form is easy enough, since there isn't any. This is what we call 'through-composed' music, meaning that recapitulation is nowhere to be found. This is rather common in metal. There is a pattern to be found in this kind of writing, though; I've developed a way of looking at through-composed music based on the idea that sections that have similar characteristics but otherwise disparate thematic material are essentially the same thing. You can read more on this idea in my second post in this thread.

My formal analysis -

0:00 - Introduction
0:06 - A
0:42 - B
0:55 - Transition - Talking
1:03 - C - Breakdown
1:34 - Transition - Based on C material - Talking
1:51 - D
2:25 - E - Similar to B, has the same snare thing as B.
2:38 - Transition, based on E material - Talking
2:50 - E' - Breakdown based on E material, similar to C in character.
3:20 - F - Sorta B'ish
3:50 - Coda

Now let's split it up into characters. We have an A and a D that never return, a B that comes back as E and tentatively F, a C that comes back later on as an E material breakdown, some transitions in which spoken word is a common factor, and an introduction and coda that are devoid of any thematic significance. That gives us this:

A = D
B = E, F
C = E'

[Intro] - ABtCt - (ABtCB') - [Coda]

The second set is parenthesized because those are the sections that we derived from the first set. There's never a real recapitulation of any of the material. Honestly, this kind of analysis is pretty useless here. A pattern does emerge with a good dose of abstraction, but it's quite a stretch to get there. I'm going to guess that these guys don't know or care about form. It seems that the thinking is "riff riff riff" (which, to me, is shit songwriting, but more power to you if that's what you like).

I can't identify a pitch system other than chugga chugga djent djent on the lowest string, plus the gamut of metulz atonality: tritones, minor seconds, chromatic lines, augmented triads. Surprisingly few diminished seventh chords, although they pop up every now and then. Riffs are probably realized by ear and by mechanics of the instrument. There is obviously a greater emphasis on rhythm than there is on pitch. A lot of the syncopation is created by filling in the spaces where the guitar is not playing, or by splitting the registers in the same manner. This isn't really surprising, just an observation. The meter changes frequently, and it would take me a while to compile every change, but the pattern's pretty simple: it usually goes along in one meter for a while and has an interruption here and there. For example, skip to 1:58 - it goes along in 3 for a tiny bit, has some other meter come in for a couple bars, then goes back to 3, then another interruption, and then it moves on to the next thing. All of this is geared toward sounding spastic and off-kilter, as if you needed me to tell you that. My overall impression is that this is fun to play and challenging to learn, but is a little bare to reveal anything in analysis.

[Metal_Webb]

Originally Posted by SchecterWhore

While there's nothing really wrong with counting "1 2 3 4 5 6 7", I've witnessed too many cases of people counting "one two three four five six sev-en"

Thats when ever I count, I go five, six, sev, eight, nine. Cutting off the extra syllable off of seven needs to happen. Breaking it down also helps (as others have said).

Easiest way to identify what you're playing is slowing the tempo right down in Guitar Pro of your software of choice. Use that to construct the bars and you should find you have a much easier time of choosing the correct time signature.

[ConnorGilks]

Originally Posted by SchecterWhore

In the end, it's the correct rhythm that matters. Anyone reading through this should understand that these methods have a common purpose, and that one need not think that they must commit to one way of doing things. I personally use three or four ways of counting on a regular basis, depending on what work for that day. Knowledge can only help.

Honestly I think if you're NOT using at least two different methods for learning music, you're not doing it right.

[GunpointMetal]

learn all your rhythm subdivisions, and I think deciding on a time signature and forcing yourself to write to it can be a great way to unlock creativity. It often times gives a new view on an old riff if you're taking something that was original 4/4 and trying to make it fit 7/8 without losing feel. Plus then you got a wicked groove most listeners will scratch thier heads. Once you know how to "count" what you're doing, go nuts, you can always come back and figure out what timing your playing in.

[ConnorGilks]

Originally Posted by GunpointMetal

learn all your rhythm subdivisions, and I think deciding on a time signature and forcing yourself to write to it can be a great way to unlock creativity. It often times gives a new view on an old riff if you're taking something that was original 4/4 and trying to make it fit 7/8 without losing feel. Plus then you got a wicked groove most listeners will scratch thier heads. Once you know how to "count" what you're doing, go nuts, you can always come back and figure out what timing your playing in.

That's the thing though. Unless you can count your subdivision and odd signatures you won't be able to properly write in them.

Also just because you can count it doesn't mean you'll get a "wicked groove" just because it's an odd time signature.

[Ryan-ZenGtr-]

What I got out of the controversial statement on the first page was; Don't just use time signatures for the sake of using time signatures.

Dream Theater seem to have forgotten that with their new material.

If your interested in a time signature, just learn or write some material in that format and practice it. Familiarity is the best way to develop confidence.

With counting 7/8 just say "Sev", the 2nd syllable of the word adds an extra beat so drop it and you'll be in time.

The 2nd most painful thing in music for me is counting complex times and the bar numbers at the same time *argh! the mental agony!!!*. For example; 1 - 2,3,4 - 2 - 2, 3,4 - 3 - 2,3,4... Once you get up to 121- 2,3,4, for me it's brain melting.

1st most mentally painful thing is Alan Holdsworth, no criticism of him or his music.

@SchecterWhore; Nice posts, as always!