Quantum Physics/Mechanics/Theory

stevemcqueen · 09-01-2011, 09:58 AM

I know there is an offical What Are You Reading thread, but I am thinking that there will be more discussion than just this one book because there are so many good books and documentaries on this subject. I am currently reading A Brief History Of Time by Stephen Hawking. To anyone who has not read this book I would highly recommend it. The ideas presented in this book will blow your mind. There are a few things that I don't agree with 100% but I am also a "Christian". I put Christian in parenthases because I don't like the negative connotations that come with saying this. I believe in Jesus as the Son of God but I am also very open minded to a lot of beliefs that most Christians would not like. So I just want to hear other peoples opinions on Quantum theories and such. And I guess I should say, "Flame on!" for all the negative posts towards me for talking about Jesus.

USMarine75 · 09-01-2011, 10:48 AM

"If I could explain it to the average person, I wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize." - Richard Feynman

stevemcqueen · 09-01-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMarine75

"If I could explain it to the average person, I wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize." - Richard Feynman

Wow, it looks like another intelligent marine that plays something besides 6 string guitars in dropped D. That makes two of us.

USMarine75 · 09-01-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevemcqueen

Wow, it looks like another intelligent marine that plays something besides 6 string guitars in dropped D. That makes two of us.

HAHAHA... I got my ass absolutely kicked in bootcamp when my DIs found out that I went to Harvard. I got f'd with all the time... "Hey Marine, how long should the hypotenuse be for the fighting hole..." Asshats... lol. I didn't tell anyone or let anyone see that shit in my SRB when I changed comnmands.

My physics prof was awarded a Nobel prize... "for his contribution to the quantum theory of optical coherence." He introduced me to Feynman, Michael Shermer, James Randi, Brian Greene (when he was a nobody lol)... the guest lectures were the best.

Seriously, I'd recommend Brian Greene's or Michio Kaku's books. They have a way of making really complicated shit understandable to mortals.

stevemcqueen · 09-01-2011, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMarine75

HAHAHA... I got my ass absolutely kicked in bootcamp when my DIs found out that I went to Harvard. I got f'd with all the time... "Hey Marine, how long should the hypotenuse be for the fighting hole..." Asshats... lol. I didn't tell anyone or let anyone see that shit in my SRB when I changed comnmands.

My physics prof was awarded a Nobel prize... "for his contribution to the quantum theory of optical coherence." He introduced me to Feynman, Michael Shermer, James Randi, Brian Greene (when he was a nobody lol)... the guest lectures were the best.

Seriously, I'd recommend Brian Greene's or Michio Kaku's books. They have a way of making really complicated shit understandable to mortals.

I just bought a couple Brian Greene books online for a dollar each.

USMarine75 · 09-01-2011, 01:14 PM

WTF, I prob paid $25 each!

Behaving_badly · 09-01-2011, 03:20 PM

BACK TO THE QUANTUM DISCUSSION
(haha)

I don't know much about it but I've listened to a bit of Robert anton wilson's talks about it and it is really amazing. I talked with a drunk college student studying quantum theory also but it was slightly less amazing.....

thedonal · 09-01-2011, 03:59 PM

It took me several attempts to get through A Brief History of Time. I mainly started struggling when it got to the quantum stuff.

I tried to re-read it once- a few years after I'd finally finished the book. I found, more than anything, that getting to quantum stuff the book started annoying me. Not sure why- maybe it is the brain frying stuff.

I do like the idea of quantum uncertainty but am a little perplexed by the dual state theories implied (and demostrated) by quantum physics. It's all a bit above me, sir!

I think that a number of Hawkins' theories have been successfully challenged since that book was published. But I'm not sure what the next level of reading material would be...

Explorer · 09-01-2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevemcqueen

There are a few things that I don't agree with 100% but I am also a "Christian". I put Christian in parenthases because I don't like the negative connotations that come with saying this. I believe in Jesus as the Son of God but I am also very open minded to a lot of beliefs that most Christians would not like.

It was my understanding that the original book, and the 2005 rewrite A Briefer History of Time (with Leonard Mlodinow), present evidence and the theories which have been posited to explain that evidence, as well as the implications of those theories. The 2005 rewrite is because science is willing to examine its conclusions in light of better evidence and theories.

So, with that goal of science noted, and the distinction made between science and dogmatism... what is it that you don't agree with? That there are theories which are proposed to explain the evidence?

I'm just curious as to whether you're proposing that science is a "belief system," which is mistaken.

Could you clarify?

skeels · 09-01-2011, 10:37 PM

BG's The Elegant Universe is a great read, too.
Also, I believe that religion and science should not be diametrically opposed nor are they mutually exclusive. If anything science teaches us that there is always something more to learn and religion teaches us that we cannot learn everything.
Quantum mechanics seem to demonstrate how we can think we know how things work on one level and yet discover that there are many more levels to reality that we do not fully understand.
Very apt, no?

Ishan · 09-02-2011, 02:34 AM

Quote:

I put Christian in parenthases because I don't like the negative connotations that come with saying this. I believe in Jesus as the Son of God but I am also very open minded to a lot of beliefs that most Christians would not like.

Spirituality and Science aren't mutually exclusive because if you try to check what happened before 10^-44 seconds (1st Planck time unit after the Big Bang) you can't

if there's a God that's were he is, everything else is beliefs not science.
Science is theory backed up by observations and facts, it's not a belief system as many want it to be.
quite a few fundamental physicists are deist, they believe in God, not in religion. For me they are the true believer as they appreciate the true masterpiece of God in its real form.
I'm not like them as I'm a Cartesian atheist but I can totally relate to them.

stevemcqueen · 09-02-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Explorer

It was my understanding that the original book, and the 2005 rewrite A Briefer History of Time (with Leonard Mlodinow), present evidence and the theories which have been posited to explain that evidence, as well as the implications of those theories. The 2005 rewrite is because science is willing to examine its conclusions in light of better evidence and theories.

So, with that goal of science noted, and the distinction made between science and dogmatism... what is it that you don't agree with? That there are theories which are proposed to explain the evidence?

I'm just curious as to whether you're proposing that science is a "belief system," which is mistaken.

Could you clarify?

Only Stephen Hawkings beliefs in a higher being. I believe 100% in a higher being, he doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishan

Spirituality and Science aren't mutually exclusive because if you try to check what happened before 10^-44 seconds (1st Planck time unit after the Big Bang) you can't

if there's a God that's were he is, everything else is beliefs not science.
Science is theory backed up by observations and facts, it's not a belief system as many want it to be.
quite a few fundamental physicists are deist, they believe in God, not in religion. For me they are the true believer as they appreciate the true masterpiece of God in its real form.
I'm not like them as I'm a Cartesian atheist but I can totally relate to them.

I don't consider myself religious. Being religious, in my opinion (IMO!) involves a bunch of rules and regulations that I am not going to bind myself to

. I believe in Jesus being the Son of God and the only way to God. Jesus only taught love, not rules.

Prydogga · 09-02-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMarine75

HAHAHA... I got my ass absolutely kicked in bootcamp when my DIs found out that I went to Harvard. I got f'd with all the time... "Hey Marine, how long should the hypotenuse be for the fighting hole..." Asshats... lol. I didn't tell anyone or let anyone see that shit in my SRB when I changed comnmands.

My physics prof was awarded a Nobel prize... "for his contribution to the quantum theory of optical coherence." He introduced me to Feynman, Michael Shermer, James Randi, Brian Greene (when he was a nobody lol)... the guest lectures were the best.

Seriously, I'd recommend Brian Greene's or Michio Kaku's books. They have a way of making really complicated shit understandable to mortals.

You've met James Randi? Awesome!

USMarine75 · 09-06-2011, 12:44 PM

James Randi is hilarious in person... most people don't expect old scientists to be funny... kind of caught some of us off guard actually.

And Dan Dennett was one of my professors! I forgot about him lol. He began his first lecture about consciousness, god, and religion by showing a slide that was a quote by someone saying that "Dan Dennet is the devil" lol... at least he knows he's hated and he owns it. I must admit, I own a lot of his books and I haven't made it through one yet! It was the first time I read something and felt it was completely over my head. I prefer quantum mechanics lol.

But my favorite professor was Dr Shelly Carson... (she's one of the leading proponents of the positive correlation between psycopathy and creativity). She was teaching us about PTSD and told us a story about when she was a stewardess way back in the day and was kidnapped at gunpoint in Spain... we were all like WTF?! Then I was watching CNN at like 2am and she was on talking about how she had suffered from sleep paralysis/night terrors too.

USMarine75 · 09-06-2011, 01:31 PM

^ Sorry for the tangent... Slightly more on topic and IMO:

One thing I was taught regarding science vs religion, is that science makes claims about only what is testable and falsifiable (since very little is actually "verifiable"). Religion makes no claims which are testable or falsififiable (hence faith), thus science can have no comment either way.

I think you could make a claim for empiricism by stating that you can go out and observe miracles (just ask ICP), but then since you couldn't replicate, falsify, or test them, they are again outside the scientific realm. Basically the concept of evidence with respect to science is very different than what the religious community deems acceptable. (Not saying this 'negatively', just stressing the incompatability)

Also, the human mind tends to look for verification (i.e confirmation bias) and not falsification; thus, we have trouble dealing conceptually with topics such as fate, luck, and religion.

e.g. Wason Test - The Famous Four Card Task

Regarding quantum mechanics... There's some intense faith going on there too lol... Concepts like how quantum gravity becomes comparable to the other forces at planck length, and how Einstein might have been right about a unified force, but that it only exists at the planck length level... which is below the scanning level of photons or electrons, and thus untestable with current technology... which is also where unidimensional vibrating strings may also exist as the fundamental indivisible unit of matter. I guess a quantum mechanics text book probably sounds as crazy to a Christian fundamentalist as the Bible sounds to me...

The Reverend · 09-06-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USMarine75

^ Sorry for the tangent... Slightly more on topic and IMO:

One thing I was taught regarding science vs religion, is that science makes claims about only what is testable and falsifiable (since very little is actually "verifiable"). Religion makes no claims which are testable or falsififiable (hence faith), thus science can have no comment either way.

I think you could make a claim for empiricism by stating that you can go out and observe miracles (just ask ICP), but then since you couldn't replicate, falsify, or test them, they are again outside the scientific realm. Basically the concept of evidence with respect to science is very different than what the religious community deems acceptable. (Not saying this 'negatively', just stressing the incompatability)

Also, the human mind tends to look for verification (i.e confirmation bias) and not falsification; thus, we have trouble dealing conceptually with topics such as fate, luck, and religion.

e.g. Wason Test - The Famous Four Card Task

Regarding quantum mechanics... There's some intense faith going on there too lol... Concepts like how quantum gravity becomes comparable to the other forces at planck length, and how Einstein might have been right about a unified force, but that it only exists at the planck length level... which is below the scanning level of photons or electrons, and thus untestable with current technology... which is also where unidimensional vibrating strings may also exist as the fundamental indivisible unit of matter. I guess a quantum mechanics text book probably sounds as crazy to a Christian fundamentalist as the Bible sounds to me...

I've always found something Dawkins said interesting...I can't put it in the exact words he did, but he said that while a supernatural force by definition would be outside of what we could measure or quantify, if it interacted with our world, it would have to have observable effects, and thus could be measured. God talking to someone, for instance, would make their brain waves react in a different way then someone talking to themselves, and we'd be able to measure that.

Quantum mechanics sounds crazy to anyone not familiar with physics...like myself

.

USMarine75 · 09-06-2011, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Reverend

I've always found something Dawkins said interesting...I can't put it in the exact words he did, but he said that while a supernatural force by definition would be outside of what we could measure or quantify, if it interacted with our world, it would have to have observable effects, and thus could be measured. God talking to someone, for instance, would make their brain waves react in a different way then someone talking to themselves, and we'd be able to measure that.

Quantum mechanics sounds crazy to anyone not familiar with physics...like myself

.

Yeah, I LOVE "The God Delusion"... and you're 100% right Dawkins does NOT believe they are mutually exclusive. He makes that exact argument that it would leave some kind of testable/measurable effect and basically dares anyone to show him any such evidence. So does James Randi for that matter... and he put a $1 million prize/reward up to anyone that can demonstrate anything supernatural/paranormal/pseudoscientific, such as religion, levitation, telepathy, psychics, etc... (James Randi Challenge)

About James Randi

And thanks Rev... I was "trying" to be impartial for once and not get any neg rep!

Ancestor · 09-20-2011, 05:41 AM

consciousness itself is enough to blow my mind. what is it? where does it come from and where does it go?

and if that is possible, then imo anything is.

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

and re quantum gravity and stuff. i don't think i'm ever really going to be able get a grasp of it, because i suck so bad at math. the theories are awesome, but how the great minds came to prove those theories... brutal.

USMarine75 · 09-20-2011, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancestor

consciousness itself is enough to blow my mind. what is it? where does it come from and where does it go?

Read "Cosciousness Explained" by Daniel Dennett... you can borrow my copy... then explain it to me lol.

daemon barbeque · 09-20-2011, 08:34 AM

There is one big difference between Faith and Science , and that is ?
In Religion, the answer to all your questions begins with "because God", and not important what comes after, it is unquestionable.
The science OTOH, tends so question everything, even it's own facts, rules, theories... Everything in Science is about questioning.

That's the reason why I can't trust religious scientists. They try so hard to "explain" god in science, which totally misses the point of doing science anyways.
Science = ?
Religion = Yes

Diggy · 09-20-2011, 08:35 AM

great discussion topic.. if we talk about it, then its rite here.. If we dont talk about it, does it even exist?

Sephael · 09-20-2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diggy

great discussion topic.. if we talk about it, then its rite here.. If we dont talk about it, does it even exist?

according to quautum physics it would exist is more places if we didn't

Diggy · 09-20-2011, 09:52 AM

lol.. I was reading Michio the other day.. the idea is that if we view something in our realm, then it exists here.. if we dont view it, whether its here in our realm or not, it doesnt exist to us because we are the ones creating the info we view.

just inter-dimensional-"what constitutes existence to us" stuff

daemon barbeque · 09-20-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diggy

lol.. I was reading Michio the other day.. the idea is that if we view something in our realm, then it exists here.. if we dont view it, whether its here in our realm or not, it doesnt exist to us because we are the ones creating the info we view.

just inter-dimensional-"what constitutes existence to us" stuff

Like god excists because we create him/her. Or UFOs

Diggy · 09-20-2011, 10:23 AM

the mind is a terrible thing to waste

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09-01-2011, 09:58 AM	#1
stevemcqueen Namby Pamby Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Orlando and Eastern NC Posts: 340 Thanked: 9 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Quantum Physics/Mechanics/Theory I know there is an offical What Are You Reading thread, but I am thinking that there will be more discussion than just this one book because there are so many good books and documentaries on this subject. I am currently reading A Brief History Of Time by Stephen Hawking. To anyone who has not read this book I would highly recommend it. The ideas presented in this book will blow your mind. There are a few things that I don't agree with 100% but I am also a "Christian". I put Christian in parenthases because I don't like the negative connotations that come with saying this. I believe in Jesus as the Son of God but I am also very open minded to a lot of beliefs that most Christians would not like. So I just want to hear other peoples opinions on Quantum theories and such. And I guess I should say, "Flame on!" for all the negative posts towards me for talking about Jesus.

09-01-2011, 03:59 PM	#8
thedonal SS.org Regular Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: At The Four Winds Bar Posts: 546 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	It took me several attempts to get through A Brief History of Time. I mainly started struggling when it got to the quantum stuff. I tried to re-read it once- a few years after I'd finally finished the book. I found, more than anything, that getting to quantum stuff the book started annoying me. Not sure why- maybe it is the brain frying stuff. I do like the idea of quantum uncertainty but am a little perplexed by the dual state theories implied (and demostrated) by quantum physics. It's all a bit above me, sir! I think that a number of Hawkins' theories have been successfully challenged since that book was published. But I'm not sure what the next level of reading material would be... Drunk by the name of "World Without End" https://soundcloud.com/#atomsun

09-01-2011, 10:37 PM	#10
skeels ..to pay the beels Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: milwaukee,WI Posts: 2,725 Thanked: 33 Feedback Score: 20 reviews	BG's The Elegant Universe is a great read, too. Also, I believe that religion and science should not be diametrically opposed nor are they mutually exclusive. If anything science teaches us that there is always something more to learn and religion teaches us that we cannot learn everything. Quantum mechanics seem to demonstrate how we can think we know how things work on one level and yet discover that there are many more levels to reality that we do not fully understand. Very apt, no? stevemcqueen likes this.

09-06-2011, 01:31 PM	#15
USMarine75 糟糕 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: MA Posts: 1,702 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	^ Sorry for the tangent... Slightly more on topic and IMO: One thing I was taught regarding science vs religion, is that science makes claims about only what is testable and falsifiable (since very little is actually "verifiable"). Religion makes no claims which are testable or falsififiable (hence faith), thus science can have no comment either way. I think you could make a claim for empiricism by stating that you can go out and observe miracles (just ask ICP), but then since you couldn't replicate, falsify, or test them, they are again outside the scientific realm. Basically the concept of evidence with respect to science is very different than what the religious community deems acceptable. (Not saying this 'negatively', just stressing the incompatability) Also, the human mind tends to look for verification (i.e confirmation bias) and not falsification; thus, we have trouble dealing conceptually with topics such as fate, luck, and religion. e.g. Wason Test - The Famous Four Card Task Regarding quantum mechanics... There's some intense faith going on there too lol... Concepts like how quantum gravity becomes comparable to the other forces at planck length, and how Einstein might have been right about a unified force, but that it only exists at the planck length level... which is below the scanning level of photons or electrons, and thus untestable with current technology... which is also where unidimensional vibrating strings may also exist as the fundamental indivisible unit of matter. I guess a quantum mechanics text book probably sounds as crazy to a Christian fundamentalist as the Bible sounds to me... daemon barbeque likes this.

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09-01-2011, 10:48 AM	#2
USMarine75 糟糕 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: MA Posts: 1,702 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	"If I could explain it to the average person, I wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize." - Richard Feynman

09-01-2011, 01:14 PM	#6
USMarine75 糟糕 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: MA Posts: 1,702 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	WTF, I prob paid $25 each!

09-01-2011, 03:20 PM	#7
Behaving_badly ss.org Regular Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: High Point, NC Posts: 75 Thanked: 2 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	BACK TO THE QUANTUM DISCUSSION (haha) I don't know much about it but I've listened to a bit of Robert anton wilson's talks about it and it is really amazing. I talked with a drunk college student studying quantum theory also but it was slightly less amazing.....

09-06-2011, 12:44 PM	#14
USMarine75 糟糕 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: MA Posts: 1,702 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	James Randi is hilarious in person... most people don't expect old scientists to be funny... kind of caught some of us off guard actually. And Dan Dennett was one of my professors! I forgot about him lol. He began his first lecture about consciousness, god, and religion by showing a slide that was a quote by someone saying that "Dan Dennet is the devil" lol... at least he knows he's hated and he owns it. I must admit, I own a lot of his books and I haven't made it through one yet! It was the first time I read something and felt it was completely over my head. I prefer quantum mechanics lol. But my favorite professor was Dr Shelly Carson... (she's one of the leading proponents of the positive correlation between psycopathy and creativity). She was teaching us about PTSD and told us a story about when she was a stewardess way back in the day and was kidnapped at gunpoint in Spain... we were all like WTF?! Then I was watching CNN at like 2am and she was on talking about how she had suffered from sleep paralysis/night terrors too.

09-20-2011, 05:41 AM	#18
Ancestor SS Contributor Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,639 Thanked: 46 $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $Ancestor is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	consciousness itself is enough to blow my mind. what is it? where does it come from and where does it go? and if that is possible, then imo anything is. “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” and re quantum gravity and stuff. i don't think i'm ever really going to be able get a grasp of it, because i suck so bad at math. the theories are awesome, but how the great minds came to prove those theories... brutal.

09-20-2011, 08:34 AM	#20
daemon barbeque Banned Join Date: May 2007 Location: Côte d'Azur Posts: 2,203 Thanked: 24 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	There is one big difference between Faith and Science , and that is ? In Religion, the answer to all your questions begins with "because God", and not important what comes after, it is unquestionable. The science OTOH, tends so question everything, even it's own facts, rules, theories... Everything in Science is about questioning. That's the reason why I can't trust religious scientists. They try so hard to "explain" god in science, which totally misses the point of doing science anyways. Science = ? Religion = Yes

09-20-2011, 08:35 AM	#21
Diggy Internet tough guy Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: STL MO Posts: 540 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 3 reviews	great discussion topic.. if we talk about it, then its rite here.. If we dont talk about it, does it even exist? Ancestor and daemon barbeque like this. "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"

09-20-2011, 09:52 AM	#23
Diggy Internet tough guy Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: STL MO Posts: 540 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 3 reviews	lol.. I was reading Michio the other day.. the idea is that if we view something in our realm, then it exists here.. if we dont view it, whether its here in our realm or not, it doesnt exist to us because we are the ones creating the info we view. just inter-dimensional-"what constitutes existence to us" stuff "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"

09-20-2011, 10:23 AM	#25
Diggy Internet tough guy Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: STL MO Posts: 540 Thanked: 4 Feedback Score: 3 reviews	the mind is a terrible thing to waste "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken"

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