[Naren]

Well, there was a thread about The Dark Tower, but this is much more specific and marked "Off Limits," "No Trespassing" to anyone who hasn't read the series.

So I finished reading through the series a second time yesterday and some parts got me thinking.

Now I don't want this to turn into a thread discussing whether you liked the ending or not. I just want to discuss the following point(s?).

Throughout the entire series, it's inferred that it will be the end of the universe (or multiverse to be more specific) if the Crimson King wins and breaks the beams, thus toppling over the Tower. However, when Roland enters the Tower, it seems like "Nah... Forget about that and take a look at THIS." And they keep saying that in the keystone world (rose) and the keystone world (tower), time only goes in one direction, but the tower throws Roland back in time several years and changes "history" (giving him the horn that he had left at Jericho Hill, altering his memory by saying that he spent a second to pick it up). So, therefore, the tower has the power to travel through time, change the facts of history, and seems completely unconcerned with any threat towards it. I could guess that the beams were created by the old people and that's why they beg Roland to save them (such as the one above Algul Siento). In other words, was Roland's quest unnecessary? Obviously he was sent back in time because his choices were very inhuman and, even at the end, he was still sacrificing people, saying that people tended to die around him, not realizing that it was his actions that caused them to die. It was almost like... the entire quest that Roland, Eddie, Susannah, Jake, and Oy were on was not to save all existance as they had thought (because the Tower was perfectly capable of defending itself), but as just a test for Roland. A test of humanity that he kept failing. But then... that'd bring up the question of how everything was going bad, how the world had moved on, and all that negative stuff. And all that just to test Roland seems a little overboard... Or did King just think up the ending at the last minute? Well, either way, I think the ending perfectly fits the themes for the whole series and the atmosphere. And it's hinted at in a lot of points (that I noticed a lot through my second read).

Thoughts?

[HammerAndSickle]

I think his quest was wholly necessary. The idea is that nothing is above ka, even the tower. It couldn't save itself any more than the rose could've saved itself from Sombra Corp if they won the land. It's hinted that the rose has abilities to protect itself from being trampled or picked or mundane things like that, but otherwise it needs protection.

King does blatantly say that he wants the book to end with Susannah in New York. The whole Coda at the end was just to satisfy readers, mostly. I thought it was good. The question is, what relevence does the horn have? It's supposed to change something about his quest, but what's ironic is that the very fact that he has it proves that Cuthbert is dead, thus isn't he still "damned"?

By the end of the story Roland has learned of love and loss more than enough. What more can he do?

To be honest I disliked the part about Susannah at the end of VII, longing to meet Eddie and Jake. She was a wuss, and I think it ruined all character development for her to leave. Not to mention Eddie and Jake both died in Keystone worlds, so there shouldn't be anywhere that they're alive, according to King's own canon.

I actually just finished my 5th or 6th readthrough yesterday XD this is by far my favorite science fiction series ever. I cry whenever someone dies, every single time, haha. It's just so masterfully done. It's nice to know someone else here appreciates it.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by HammerAndSickle

I think his quest was wholly necessary. The idea is that nothing is above ka, even the tower. It couldn't save itself any more than the rose could've saved itself from Sombra Corp if they won the land. It's hinted that the rose has abilities to protect itself from being trampled or picked or mundane things like that, but otherwise it needs protection.

But he infers several times that the tower is ka or at least the source of ka.

Originally Posted by HammerAndSickle

King does blatantly say that he wants the book to end with Susannah in New York. The whole Coda at the end was just to satisfy readers, mostly. I thought it was good. The question is, what relevence does the horn have? It's supposed to change something about his quest, but what's ironic is that the very fact that he has it proves that Cuthbert is dead, thus isn't he still "damned"?

No. It says "perhaps there is redemption." The word "redemption" means that he's done something wrong. The tower isn't going to send him back to age 7 before he's had Hax killed and before he's killed David to beat Cort and before he's gone to Mejis. The trip from the Mojaine Desert seemed to be the point where he realized the pointlessness in a lot of what he'd done and it was his chance to do things differently. The tower doesn't expect him to have a perfect life, but just not one where he kills everyone who matters. Having the horn would constantly remind him of how his best friend, Cuthbert, had died. I think this might remind him that Jake, Eddie, and Susannah aren't just pawns for him to use in his quest to get to the tower. I also think it would give him some motivation to make sure his new friends don't die like his old ones did.

Originally Posted by HammerAndSickle

By the end of the story Roland has learned of love and loss more than enough. What more can he do?

But he doesn't act on it. He STILL kills everyone or lets them die. Even when Susannah is going to leave, knowing that it's for her own good and that she's "supposed" to do it, he tries to stop her. He begs her to stay. Learning of love and loss right at the end seemed like a good start, but not enough to redeem someone. It's like massacring a bunch of people and then realizing on your death bed that you were wrong. That doesn't redeem you.

Originally Posted by HammerAndSickle

To be honest I disliked the part about Susannah at the end of VII, longing to meet Eddie and Jake. She was a wuss, and I think it ruined all character development for her to leave. Not to mention Eddie and Jake both died in Keystone worlds, so there shouldn't be anywhere that they're alive, according to King's own canon.

Maybe you could say she was a wuss, but that completely fit her character. That's exactly what I'd expect her to do if I hadn't read it. I don't really get how Eddie and Jake dying in Keystone worlds would get rid of all their other versions in other worlds? Would Eddie just disappear from his brother Jake the second Eddie died in Thunderclap? Would Jake forget about his brother's existence or go insane wondering where he disappeared? Or, would he keep looking for Eddie until he himself suddenly disappeared when Jake died? I don't really get where you're getting the idea of any Jake or Eddie being alive being against King's canon. They aren't the same people. Neither of them have any memory of Susannah. They're brothers now. They don't live in New York. Eddie even seems to be less rough of a person.

[noodles]

I've actually done a lot of thinking on this. I'm going to drop the spoiler tags, because at this point, I think people get the point.

The tower/rose is the one object that sits outside of time. Keep in mind that Roland saved the multiverse a long time ago, and has been going through a replay ever since. "Oh god, no, not again, have mercy!" Opening the door at the top of the tower gave him a glimpse of all of the past times he had been there, just as opening the door on the beach allowed Odetta Holmes and Odetta Walker see each other.

Roland's blunder is not realizing the true purpose of his quest. The pink ball deliberately distorted the truth, as it always does, in order to lead Roland astray. Walter gave Roland the ball, thinking it would destroy or completely mislead Roland, but it also led Walter astray, to the detriment of his own quest and life. The wizard's eyes are all evil, malicious artifacts, and I believe the pink one was simply playing everyone for the fool.

Roland saved the multiverse by saving the two remaining beams: the one under attack from the breakers in his world, and the one under attack from his own laziness and stupidity in the world of the rose. Thus, the old magic of the prim has been restored, and the new beams shall be regenerated. I have come to believe that the failure of the old technology would have not been the undoing of the beams, were it not for the constant attack of the Crimson King. Ka decreed that a life must be sacrificed for each beam, thus the feeling of ka shum and the death of Eddie and Jake.

This is where Roland's quest has ended. This is where the pink ball, and his own stubborn desire to see the tower, led him astray. He is turned back until he learns his lesson. The Horn of Eld was simply given to him to hopefully remind him of where to stop, and I bet that the tower gave him a little hint every single time it sent him back--an object here, a new memory there, another little piece of the puzzle. Eventually, he will stop going back, realize his job is done, and let the multiverse take care of itself. Or not. He is never in any danger, since ka has protected him to perform his vital task. No one was ever meant to enter the tower, and this is Roland's punishment, which is far more lenient than that of the Crimson King. His punishment is eternal, with no hope of redemption.

Susannah realized that, as King likes to say, her part in the story was over. The senseless death of Oy, and what would have been her, was because ka no longer needed them. She was not of this world, and neither was Jake and Eddie, so her reward for service was to spend the rest of her days with alternate versions of her friends, and the ability to forget what has happened to her. Only one version of Jake and Eddie were lost, so they did not die eternally. The gun barrel is filled in because the line of Eld has finished, its services no longer required. Call it their "heaven", if you will. A chance to live a peaceful life. This peaceful life is something Roland needs to find for himself in his own world, so he will continue to double back until he figures that out.

[Naren]

Good points, Noodles, and I can pretty much agree with everything you're saying there. I hadn't really thought about Roland not even needing to go to the Tower. Once Roland had restored the beams, there was nothing the Crimson King could do. He was trapped outside the Tower with only some sneetches, so really there was no need to erase him either.

Since there are so many different ways something can go, I have to wonder how different each trip to the tower was. For example, in his previous one, he didn't go to sleep on the beach and didn't lose the fingers on his right hand. Or, in an even previous quest, maybe he lost one of the two guns with the sandalwood grips.

Anyway, interesting to think about. It's like an eternal never-ending torture for Roland. It also explains why Roland is constantly constantly constantly referred to as being hundreds to thousands of years old when he really should only be about 38 or 40 years old. He's been doing this quest hundreds of times by now.

[forelander]

Originally Posted by Naren

I hadn't really thought about Roland not even needing to go to the Tower. Once Roland had restored the beams, there was nothing the Crimson King could do. He was trapped outside the Tower with.

Exactly - Roland restored the beams and the tower was saved, and there was no reason at all for him to continue seeking it except for his selfish motivation. Everyone he betrayed and killed through his life was for the tower, the person he had become by the time the gunslinger began was all just to reach the tower. Not to save it, to reach it. The only way he'll ever find redemption is to give up on seeing the tower and only try to save it. If he reaches this point, he'll not continue on once the tower is saved. He'll not see it, and he'll not reach it's top room.

[The Dark Wolf]

Roland is stuck in the cycle of Ka. There is no redemption for him, yet he brought it to everyone else.

I think that's specfuckintacular, personally.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by The Dark Wolf

Roland is stuck in the cycle of Ka. There is no redemption for him, yet he brought it to everyone else.

I think that's specfuckintacular, personally.

And then took it all back by being sent back in time where Susannah is no longer with alternate versions of Eddie and Jake, but is instead Odetta with the Detta personality back in 1962 New York. Eddie is back on heroin. Jake is back getting killed by Walter and being sent to Mid-World (technically still In-World, I think).

He saved the beams and therefore saved the multiverse, but the tower sent him back to do it again which negated everything he had done.

[The Dark Wolf]

Maybe.

But then again, maybe the top of the tower is really Roland's Prison of Ka. Just because he's doomed to repeat his actions doesn't mean they have the same impact, or consequences.

Ultimately, Roland failed Ka, in a sense.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by The Dark Wolf

Maybe.

But then again, maybe the top of the tower is really Roland's Prison of Ka. Just because he's doomed to repeat his actions doesn't mean they have the same impact, or consequences.

Ultimately, Roland failed Ka, in a sense.

Maybe. The novels don't really let us know whether time is actually reset each time he fails ka or whether he is only in a closed off prison of his own. However, if that were the case, he really doesn't even need to prevent the beams from breaking because time hasn't really reset (I think it has, though. That's why I think Susannah will not be able to live out her fantasy life until Roland does things right).

I think Roland will eventually get things right. Each time he goes through, he does it somewhat better. I have to imagine that maybe in his try 15 times ago, he was a ruthless killer who never learned to love any of his ka-tet and treated them like pawns. Maybe he killed Jake and felt no remorse over it, thus not killing the Mort guy who had killed Jake and Jake not becoming a member of his tet.

This is all speculation, I guess...

[HammerAndSickle]

Originally Posted by noodles

I've actually done a lot of thinking on this. I'm going to drop the spoiler tags, because at this point, I think people get the point.

The tower/rose is the one object that sits outside of time. Keep in mind that Roland saved the multiverse a long time ago, and has been going through a replay ever since. "Oh god, no, not again, have mercy!" Opening the door at the top of the tower gave him a glimpse of all of the past times he had been there, just as opening the door on the beach allowed Odetta Holmes and Odetta Walker see each other.

Roland's blunder is not realizing the true purpose of his quest. The pink ball deliberately distorted the truth, as it always does, in order to lead Roland astray. Walter gave Roland the ball, thinking it would destroy or completely mislead Roland, but it also led Walter astray, to the detriment of his own quest and life. The wizard's eyes are all evil, malicious artifacts, and I believe the pink one was simply playing everyone for the fool.

Roland saved the multiverse by saving the two remaining beams: the one under attack from the breakers in his world, and the one under attack from his own laziness and stupidity in the world of the rose. Thus, the old magic of the prim has been restored, and the new beams shall be regenerated. I have come to believe that the failure of the old technology would have not been the undoing of the beams, were it not for the constant attack of the Crimson King. Ka decreed that a life must be sacrificed for each beam, thus the feeling of ka shum and the death of Eddie and Jake.

This is where Roland's quest has ended. This is where the pink ball, and his own stubborn desire to see the tower, led him astray. He is turned back until he learns his lesson. The Horn of Eld was simply given to him to hopefully remind him of where to stop, and I bet that the tower gave him a little hint every single time it sent him back--an object here, a new memory there, another little piece of the puzzle. Eventually, he will stop going back, realize his job is done, and let the multiverse take care of itself. Or not. He is never in any danger, since ka has protected him to perform his vital task. No one was ever meant to enter the tower, and this is Roland's punishment, which is far more lenient than that of the Crimson King. His punishment is eternal, with no hope of redemption.

Susannah realized that, as King likes to say, her part in the story was over. The senseless death of Oy, and what would have been her, was because ka no longer needed them. She was not of this world, and neither was Jake and Eddie, so her reward for service was to spend the rest of her days with alternate versions of her friends, and the ability to forget what has happened to her. Only one version of Jake and Eddie were lost, so they did not die eternally. The gun barrel is filled in because the line of Eld has finished, its services no longer required. Call it their "heaven", if you will. A chance to live a peaceful life. This peaceful life is something Roland needs to find for himself in his own world, so he will continue to double back until he figures that out.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but there are still some things I need clarified.

What was it that Roland did that was so wrong? To me, he isn't anything that life (and therefore, ka, and therefore, the tower itself) hasn't made him. He can't have a peaceful life because he's been raised as a gunslinger. He can't ignore the call of the tower because of his blood and his lineage. To me, your argument is basically that he doesn't know when to quit, which I think is wrong because there's always need for his services.

How many places could he have helped out? If you recall, the thousands upon thousands of miles he traversed, even with his ka-tet in tow, encompassed much less than half of Roland's world. Remember, the entirety of the series takes place within the vicinity of the Beam of the Bear. Beyond the Tower lies the beam of the turtle. To either side, twelve more beams. There are obviously many more people he and his ka-tet could help as gunslingers, not to mention all the other worlds...

The fact that the Beams are healing says nothing of the state of the world. Even if all the Beams restore themselves the world has still moved on. Gunslingers were needed even before everything went to hell, they must be needed moreso now.

Yes, I agree he is done, at least as far as his quest for the Tower. But I think it isn't fair for the book to typecast him almost as an ignorant or rebellious schoolboy: I really can't see that he's not "learning some lesson". He does what he's trained to do. Throughout all the books (which I've read plenty of times) I never saw Roland forsaking anyone or any values, aside from Jake in the mountains (which worked out for the best later on, by accepting him as his son I feel he more than atoned for letting him drop). When Eddie died, what could Roland have done? It was a surprise attack. When Jake died (for the.... fourth time? when King got him killed), Roland told him to stay back, but when his hip shot out Jake went ahead and saved King. When Oy died, Roland was exhausted and unable to keep watch, and Oy fought bravely and by choice.

If you say that any of these things are his fault, I question why. Is it because he brought them into it in the first place? They all said throughout the books that they wouldn't leave even if they could (which Susannah reneged on). They said they wanted what Roland and Mid-World had to offer. They were brought there out of force, but stayed by choice. I don't think they felt failed by ka at any point.

Mainly, what I'm saying is "how could Roland have done any better?". He started out as a loner and a cold-hearted man, and through learning of others and teaching, he grew a capacity to love his ka-tet. If that's not enough for the Tower, what more can he do?

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by Naren

I think Roland will eventually get things right. Each time he goes through, he does it somewhat better. I have to imagine that maybe in his try 15 times ago, he was a ruthless killer who never learned to love any of his ka-tet and treated them like pawns. Maybe he killed Jake and felt no remorse over it, thus not killing the Mort guy who had killed Jake and Jake not becoming a member of his tet.

This is all speculation, I guess...

That's an interesting take.

I think I prefer my darker analysis, but that's a cool idea, too.

I do think the relevance of each successive "saving" of the beams might be less important than some "singularity" of saving them, some meta-event. Then again, perhaps Roland is destined to ALWAYS save them. Ka.

What if he's only freed if he fails?

[Naren]

Originally Posted by The Dark Wolf

That's an interesting take.

I think I prefer my darker analysis, but that's a cool idea, too.

I do think the relevance of each successive "saving" of the beams might be less important than some "singularity" of saving them, some meta-event. Then again, perhaps Roland is destined to ALWAYS save them. Ka.

What if he's only freed if he fails?

Hm. That's also an interesting take on it.

What if his only way out of the loop is death? What if he sacrifices himself to save one of his ka-tet, killing himself, ending the loop, and also saving the beams and thus the tower at the same time?

It seems though that Roland has saved the beams every single time he's gone through this loop, but probably saved them in a different way each time. So, it may be "ka" for him to save the beams and everything else around him depends on his choices.

HammerAndSickle doesn't think that the deaths are Roland's fault, but the Dark Tower would disagree. At the end of the last book, Roland has an idea of everyone around him passively dying and then the Tower interjects and infers that Roland has killed everyone around him through his own choices.

[The Dark Wolf]

Yep, I agree with that.

Roland is heroic, but that's part of the point. He's far from infallible. In fact, he's basically a relentless hunter that is determined, ultimately, to achieve his goal regardless of the consequences.

In that light, what really saves the world is Susannah, and Eddie, and especially Jake. Their humanity allows Roland to make that connection, and realize the worth of things. They show the cost.

But ultimately? He's a weapon. He's a gun. And he aims, unnervingly, for his target. No matter the cost.

[Naren]

There are many times where he has to keep himself from killing one of the members of his own ka-tet whether it be Eddie or Susannah. He also feels like killing Stephen King after Jake dies but forces himself not to. He feels like killing the people he's saved many times as well. He even teaches this trait to Eddie, although not to the extreme extent as himself.

It's like he's almost too good at killing.

I think that the effect Jake, Eddie, Susannah, and Oy had on him can really be seen when you think about how he just massacres an entire city - men, women, and children - at the beginning of the series without thinking remorsefully about it at all, even considering killing the generous man who gives him water and dinner, simply based on the possibility of him being the man in black.

But, even though by the end of the series he's moved way beyond the gunslinger in the first book, he's still far from the man he should be.

Like you said, he's willing to achieve his goal, regardless of the consequences and regardless of what he has to sacrifice along the way. He promises that he won't let Jake die again, but he still knows that he might sacrifice Jake just to get to the tower. When Jake does ultimately die, it's not Roland sacrificing him, but in a way, it's a result of his actions...

[HammerAndSickle]

Here's the conundrum, though: if Roland refused to let anyone close to him die, the Tower would fall anyway. Think about it: The only way he could have saved Jake from his final death was to not save Stephen King in the process. This would destroy Gan's beam, leaving only one to hold up the Tower, right?

Then, to prevent Eddie's death he would've had to refuse to save the Breakers at Algul Siento. Which would have brought down the Bear-Turtle beam and toppled the Tower.

Even if, through some metaphysical thinking, you believe that the Beams were saved already and Roland's actions are meaningless, they would've tried to save King and the Breakers anyway. Eddie and Jake and Susannah and Oy all wanted to help those people. They wanted to finish the quest, save the world, and see the Tower. They said that even if Roland dropped dead, they would continue. So no, I don't think anything that happened to them was Roland's fault. They wanted everything that he wanted.

[Stuart]

Man, I think I need to read this again. Its a very long series and its difficult to remember enough to make these sorts of speculations. I sure as hell didnt get half as much info the 1 time I read this.My mam put me onto this series and she died about half way through, book 4 I think. Man, Thats eternal torture! The most awesome story ever written sure enough. I'll get back to you all in about 4 or 5 months or so.

[forelander]

Originally Posted by HammerAndSickle

Here's the conundrum, though: if Roland refused to let anyone close to him die, the Tower would fall anyway. Think about it: The only way he could have saved Jake from his final death was to not save Stephen King in the process. This would destroy Gan's beam, leaving only one to hold up the Tower, right?

Then, to prevent Eddie's death he would've had to refuse to save the Breakers at Algul Siento. Which would have brought down the Bear-Turtle beam and toppled the Tower.

Even if, through some metaphysical thinking, you believe that the Beams were saved already and Roland's actions are meaningless, they would've tried to save King and the Breakers anyway. Eddie and Jake and Susannah and Oy all wanted to help those people. They wanted to finish the quest, save the world, and see the Tower. They said that even if Roland dropped dead, they would continue. So no, I don't think anything that happened to them was Roland's fault. They wanted everything that he wanted.

He doesn't need to save everyone; what he needs to do is cry off the tower after it's saved. The ONLY reason he continues to it isn't to save it, or kill the Crimson King, it's to conquer it. And that action is what damns him. The cycle will break when the tower is saved and Roland leaves it at that, maybe goes with Susannah, stays with her in his world, or gets his own door to something better.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by forelander

He doesn't need to save everyone; what he needs to do is cry off the tower after it's saved. The ONLY reason he continues to it isn't to save it, or kill the Crimson King, it's to conquer it. And that action is what damns him. The cycle will break when the tower is saved and Roland leaves it at that, maybe goes with Susannah, stays with her in his world, or gets his own door to something better.

Amen.

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[The Dark Wolf]

Yep. I agree, too.