Ron Thorn's take on CNC and timeframes etc. (interesting read) - Page 2

skinhead · 11-15-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighGain510

Ah, see but BILL posted that. He's not RON THORN... Bill just linked to the post Ron made. Ron didn't post it over there Frankie!

I

at you and deem you ultimately false!

I don't feel like fighting, I need some

Can you administer some?

Yeah, but IIRC I didn't say that Ron posted on PG, I said that I read it over there. Just in case

HighGain510 · 11-15-2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinhead

I don't feel like fighting, I need some

Can you administer some?

Yeah, but IIRC I didn't say that Ron posted on PG, I said that I read it over there. Just in case

I still

you!

Now, don't you have to get back to stalking Drew?

ohio_eric · 11-15-2007, 09:57 PM

Hey Frank and Matt get a room.

Anyway I totally agree with Thorn. CNC gives consistency and accuracy with are paramount if you want to be successful as a luthier.

cadenhead · 11-15-2007, 10:37 PM

In a former life, I used to program CNC machines for a custom cabinet shop.

It seems like some people think that it is a lot easier to do than it really is. Depending on the CNC and/or the program used, it can be a long process for complicated things like guitars and necks.

Thankfully there are programs to generate the CNC code. When I was first introduced to CNC's, I learned how to do very simple things using only raw code. Needless to say, it took weeks to get it to carve my name in a scrap pice of material.

Awesome post BTW.

Naren · 11-16-2007, 12:30 AM

Sweet post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew

We can agree to disagree.

For me, for something that I consier art, it's as much the act of creation as it is the finished product. I don't consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is.

For me, I guess it's the little imperfections that add value to it, that make it human. Then again, I'm not the sort of guy who'd want an eagle on his fretboard either.

The photocopier bit was an analogy, by the way, not a personal dig at your favorite luthier.

I do consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is and the same way novel or poem writing is.

So I guess we can agree to disagree.

Having seen the high quality of the Thorn inlays, I doubt anyone could do it that accurately without using a CNC. And I fail to see how using a CNC makes it "not handmade."

budda · 11-16-2007, 02:51 PM

great post matt, thanks

Variant · 11-17-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew

We can agree to disagree.

For me, for something that I consier art, it's as much the act of creation as it is the finished product. I don't consider computer programming an "art" the same way hand inlaying is. :

You've obviously never spent 80 hours with a 3D modeling software meticulously honing a design. Sure, it ain't a Dremel tool, but a Dremel ain't a carving knife, and a carving knife ain't a paint brush, and a pant brush ain't a piece of charcoal. Eventually, that mentality reduces cave scrawlings made with rock as the only "appreciable" art. Sure, the digital medium can be misused and result in godawful products, but that's true of any medium. In my humble opinion as a designer, good ideas start in the head and end with good resultant product, what goes on in between is merely the vehicle between those two states of being.

dpm · 11-17-2007, 07:31 PM

^ abso....inglutely, very well said

skinhead · 11-18-2007, 03:55 PM

It's a dilema IMO the inlaying.

I consider both guys inlay artist, the one that make it by hand and the one that make it with a CNC.

Because one it's an artist cutting the stuff, leveling, etc. And the other one has the balls to sit down hours to programme all the shit to cut the pieces for the inlay.

El Caco · 11-18-2007, 04:58 PM

Great post Matt.

I agree that it is still art, the CNC is just a tool.

I also think graphic design, graphic manipulation and CG is art. All of these use computers as their main tool in their art and art galleries obviously agree when they have displays for each of these artforms.

If pictures created completely from code are considered art surely inlays that only use the CNC for a small portion of the process and then require meticulous work by hand to complete can also be considered art.

Stealthdjentstic · 01-08-2012, 02:24 PM

BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k

Thanks again matt

Valennic · 01-08-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthdjentstic

BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k

Thanks again matt

Only acceptable necro I think I've ever seen. Too many threads popping up on that lately

HighGain510 · 01-08-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthdjentstic

BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k

Thanks again matt

No problem, Ron is one of the guys in the industry who REALLY knows his stuff (engineering and CNC background + long-time guitar builder), so typically when he tells me something regarding build process I take his word for it. When he's able to drop a nugget of wisdom like this, I felt it was worth sharing with the community.

P.S. Mods - Might consider making it a sticky as it IS a question/issue that comes up often, would be nice not to have to bump it back to life to explain to folks!

TemjinStrife · 01-08-2012, 03:32 PM

This needs to be stickied alongside Darren's "Why Guitars Cost What They Do."

MaxOfMetal · 01-09-2012, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighGain510

No problem, Ron is one of the guys in the industry who REALLY knows his stuff (engineering and CNC background + long-time guitar builder), so typically when he tells me something regarding build process I take his word for it. When he's able to drop a nugget of wisdom like this, I felt it was worth sharing with the community.

P.S. Mods - Might consider making it a sticky as it IS a question/issue that comes up often, would be nice not to have to bump it back to life to explain to folks!

Done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TemjinStrife

This needs to be stickied alongside Darren's "Why Guitars Cost What They Do."

And done.

Stealthdjentstic · 01-09-2012, 05:57 PM

Yay

anthonyferguson · 01-10-2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighGain510

Ron said he would take using CNC over "totally handbuilt" (which is a term that makes me laugh a bit, because if you're using machines like bandsaws it's STILL a machine

) guitars any day, so keep in mind that even though it's a time-saver once you get it down, there are still a TON of things that require a lot of hands on attention after the CNC part is completed.

Just my 2 cents on that comment, putting a piece of wood through a machine is still a process that's done "by hand" as you're steering the workpiece. An accident on the craftsman's part results in a problem. So really, imo, it makes no difference if it's a bandsaw or a chisel, the same principal applies, despite there being a motor behind one of them.

HighGain510 · 01-10-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyferguson

Just my 2 cents on that comment, putting a piece of wood through a machine is still a process that's done "by hand" as you're steering the workpiece. An accident on the craftsman's part results in a problem. So really, imo, it makes no difference if it's a bandsaw or a chisel, the same principal applies, despite there being a motor behind one of them.

If your machine is calibrated and maintained properly, you're taking the human error out of the equation. That's the difference. The operations being performed on the CNC are PRECISE, you're not doing the work outside of programming. What you're arguing is missing the point entirely.

Sepultorture · 01-10-2012, 04:10 PM

50-100 more years from now, androids will be making our guitars and i can have a completely custom shop guitar made in 3-4 days

course i'll be old as .... or dead by then so i don't care LOL

Stealthdjentstic · 01-10-2012, 04:13 PM

I-tar and guitandriods

Metal_Webb · 01-11-2012, 07:12 AM

My

...

A CNC is a tool in the luthier's kit for them to make a guitar. For a large chunk of a build, it's the best tool to make a pile of accurate, precise, repeatable cuts routes and shaping. We aren't cavemen. We have CNC and computers to help us with the construction of stuff. It's the best tool for the job and I'd never complain about someone using one.

scherzo1928 · 01-11-2012, 09:08 AM

It's like paying more for a surgeon to only use a scalpel instead of all the high tech equipment they have today. Wonky analogy I know.

Personally, it's the time that I spend sawing and sanding by hand that makes it worth it... but that's only because I build guitars for myself. Since I don't have a bloody bandsaw I can spend an entire week hand cutting (almoast non-stop) neck laminates. Or a day cutting a guitar's shape with a tiny coping saw. When you put so much work, sweat and a drop of blood now and then into a guitar (or anything really) you almoast become bound to that instrument.

BUT, If I was paying someone else to make me a guitar I wouldn't give a rat's ass of what tools he used if the final product was good. In the same way, if I ever started building for anyone else, I would NOT hesitate to have a CNC to help me out.

Keep in mind this is comming from someone studying to become a mechanical engineer (oh so close) and CNCs should be my first choice... but when you are dealing with numbers and equations all day long, doing a bunch of handwork is almoast therapeutic.

th3m1ke · 01-11-2012, 09:22 AM

Wow, thanks for bumping this. I never got to read this article and it's great. I can't explain how many arguments I've had to walk away from with people telling me that all my PRS are shit because they aren't "pre-factory" hype. I've seen first hand the CNC's at PRS (Im assuming they are extremely similar at Rons and other luthier shops) and it just make sense. The CNC code is modeled after a hand carved body, so you literally are getting an exacttttttt recreating of a handcarved body. The dramatic reduction in errors and wood waste, as well as time saved only add to the value you are getting. I mean honestly, how much do you think Ron would charged for a gutiar that has 80 hours of work on it? And that's just work time - we're not factoing in the cost of the raw materials and electronics.

Again awesome post man.

elq · 01-11-2012, 06:25 PM

Here's a link that demonstrates how much work is still needed despite Ron using CNC machines. Hopefully it'll help counter ignorant bullshit.

#030 Construction

HighGain510 · 01-12-2012, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elq

Here's a link that demonstrates how much work is still needed despite Ron using CNC machines. Hopefully it'll help counter ignorant bullshit.

#030 Construction

Whoa nice catch Eric, I had totally forgotten Ron had put that together, been a long time since #30 came out!

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11-16-2007, 02:51 PM	#31
budda Guiterrorizer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London ONT Posts: 18,906 Thanked: 174 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	great post matt, thanks _______________________ J S Moore pickups: www.tonefordays.com Rock on!

11-18-2007, 03:55 PM	#34
skinhead Manager / RHLC © Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 5,675 Thanked: 55 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	It's a dilema IMO the inlaying. I consider both guys inlay artist, the one that make it by hand and the one that make it with a CNC. Because one it's an artist cutting the stuff, leveling, etc. And the other one has the balls to sit down hours to programme all the shit to cut the pieces for the inlay. Back to da 'hood (sevenstring.org)

01-08-2012, 02:24 PM	#36
Stealthdjentstic Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canadia Posts: 19,978 Thanked: 338 Feedback Score: 10 reviews	BUMP for the newbies complaining about why they cant have a full blown custom from X luthier for under 2k Thanks again matt Hollowway, UnderTheSign, th3m1ke and 1 others like this.

01-10-2012, 04:10 PM	#44
Sepultorture Murder Machine Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oshawa, ON, Canada Posts: 4,531 Thanked: 36 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	50-100 more years from now, androids will be making our guitars and i can have a completely custom shop guitar made in 3-4 days course i'll be old as .... or dead by then so i don't care LOL BEARDS: They Instantly Turn Any Man Into A Badass, It's Like Having Machine Guns On Your Face

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11-15-2007, 09:57 PM	#28
ohio_eric SS Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 9,248 Thanked: 189 Feedback Score: 1 reviews	Hey Frank and Matt get a room. Anyway I totally agree with Thorn. CNC gives consistency and accuracy with are paramount if you want to be successful as a luthier.

11-15-2007, 10:37 PM	#29
cadenhead Get Some! Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Great Northwest Posts: 1,160 Thanked: 19 Feedback Score: 4 reviews	In a former life, I used to program CNC machines for a custom cabinet shop. It seems like some people think that it is a lot easier to do than it really is. Depending on the CNC and/or the program used, it can be a long process for complicated things like guitars and necks. Thankfully there are programs to generate the CNC code. When I was first introduced to CNC's, I learned how to do very simple things using only raw code. Needless to say, it took weeks to get it to carve my name in a scrap pice of material. Awesome post BTW.

11-17-2007, 07:31 PM	#33
dpm Oni Guitars Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia Posts: 3,377 Thanked: 21 Feedback Score: 2 reviews	^ abso....inglutely, very well said

11-18-2007, 04:58 PM	#35
El Caco Djavli te ponesli Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: AU Posts: 6,665 Thanked: 76 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Great post Matt. I agree that it is still art, the CNC is just a tool. I also think graphic design, graphic manipulation and CG is art. All of these use computers as their main tool in their art and art galleries obviously agree when they have displays for each of these artforms. If pictures created completely from code are considered art surely inlays that only use the CNC for a small portion of the process and then require meticulous work by hand to complete can also be considered art.

01-08-2012, 03:32 PM	#39
TemjinStrife Power Metal Cellist Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Manhattan, NY Posts: 4,030 Thanked: 27 Feedback Score: 6 reviews	This needs to be stickied alongside Darren's "Why Guitars Cost What They Do."

01-09-2012, 05:57 PM	#41
Stealthdjentstic Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canadia Posts: 19,978 Thanked: 338 Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Yay

01-10-2012, 04:13 PM	#45
Stealthdjentstic Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canadia Posts: 19,978 Thanked: 338 Feedback Score: 10 reviews	I-tar and guitandriods

01-11-2012, 07:12 AM	#46
Metal_Webb Needs more strings Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 1,133 Thanked: 19 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	My ... A CNC is a tool in the luthier's kit for them to make a guitar. For a large chunk of a build, it's the best tool to make a pile of accurate, precise, repeatable cuts routes and shaping. We aren't cavemen. We have CNC and computers to help us with the construction of stuff. It's the best tool for the job and I'd never complain about someone using one. HighGain510 likes this. "By the way, melted binding looks like marshmallow. But it really doesn't taste like it." - MapleLeaf97

01-11-2012, 09:08 AM	#47
scherzo1928 has wood for you Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,692 Thanked: 33 $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ $scherzo1928 is rather kvlt and tr00. \m/$ Feedback Score: 0 reviews	It's like paying more for a surgeon to only use a scalpel instead of all the high tech equipment they have today. Wonky analogy I know. Personally, it's the time that I spend sawing and sanding by hand that makes it worth it... but that's only because I build guitars for myself. Since I don't have a bloody bandsaw I can spend an entire week hand cutting (almoast non-stop) neck laminates. Or a day cutting a guitar's shape with a tiny coping saw. When you put so much work, sweat and a drop of blood now and then into a guitar (or anything really) you almoast become bound to that instrument. BUT, If I was paying someone else to make me a guitar I wouldn't give a rat's ass of what tools he used if the final product was good. In the same way, if I ever started building for anyone else, I would NOT hesitate to have a CNC to help me out. Keep in mind this is comming from someone studying to become a mechanical engineer (oh so close) and CNCs should be my first choice... but when you are dealing with numbers and equations all day long, doing a bunch of handwork is almoast therapeutic. HighGain510, th3m1ke and Metal_Webb like this. Is this... guitar?

01-11-2012, 09:22 AM	#48
th3m1ke Chug Life Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 2,830 Thanked: 57 Feedback Score: 7 reviews	Wow, thanks for bumping this. I never got to read this article and it's great. I can't explain how many arguments I've had to walk away from with people telling me that all my PRS are shit because they aren't "pre-factory" hype. I've seen first hand the CNC's at PRS (Im assuming they are extremely similar at Rons and other luthier shops) and it just make sense. The CNC code is modeled after a hand carved body, so you literally are getting an exacttttttt recreating of a handcarved body. The dramatic reduction in errors and wood waste, as well as time saved only add to the value you are getting. I mean honestly, how much do you think Ron would charged for a gutiar that has 80 hours of work on it? And that's just work time - we're not factoing in the cost of the raw materials and electronics. Again awesome post man. HighGain510 and scherzo1928 like this.

01-11-2012, 06:25 PM	#49
elq (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,108 Thanked: 42 Feedback Score: 5 reviews	Here's a link that demonstrates how much work is still needed despite Ron using CNC machines. Hopefully it'll help counter ignorant bullshit. #030 Construction HighGain510 likes this.

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