Too many custom luthiers...

[Thep]

Fact is that most guitarists in this world would be happy on a Gibson or Fender, so the market is already very niched.

So if you're buying a high-dollar guitar, you want it to be unique, significant, and prestigious. However, there are dozens of companies who are able to craft what appears to be a quality instrument now that there are nearly endless resources on luthiery online, in forums, videos, blogs, etc etc...precision machining and detail work can equate to a good guitar, but which luthiers can intentionally craft a unique "mojo" in their instruments with every piece they build?

While that is nice in regards to competitive prices, these affordable prices begin to reveal that there isn't much behind a custom guitar anymore. TONS of people can do it...(look at Patrick Sims not really the type of wise, passionate craftsman I'd like to think about).

So for me all of that really dilutes the idea of ordering a custom: it seems its really not all that unique or special anymore. So sure it be nice to have a guitar built to spec, but more and more I'm realizing that FOR ME, its not worth it by a long shot.

With all these brands popping up, its hard to have an "it" factor, something that turns heads like a Bentley on the road. As beautiful as it is, seeing all these quilt tops is getting a bit stale...doesn't help with all the fake quilts on lower end guitars.

Now my Ibanez fanboyism coming out, If talking strictly about up-close, super fine detail, I'd be hard pressed to find anything that surpasses a recent J-custom. There are so many things on a newer J-custom that you simply don't notice in photos. If we're talking mojo, early 90's MIJ is the epitome of mojo.

And before anybody says "big deal, you don't want a custom, whats your point", I'm just doing this for discussion purposes...its a forum. I'm fully aware that everyone has different tastes/needs in a guitar, I'm just wondering if anyone agrees with what I feel is a dilution of exclusivity.

[Adam Of Angels]

I think that it's a current trend that we're witnessing. Eventually, some of the good builders will be distilled from the rest and that's what we'll be faced with, primarily. It's probably more of a cycle than anything.

[celticelk]

I like single-cutaway guitars. I prefer these days to play seven- and eight-string instruments. I'm not a fan of active pickups. That severely limits my choices for production instruments - in the case of 8s, in fact, it eliminates them altogether. So in my case, going for customs is less about being "unique" or "special" than simply preferring a feature set that's out of step with the current commercial offerings. If Schecter made a decent-looking Solo-8, or ESP or Ibanez did an 8-string version of their LP-type 7s, then I might consider purchasing a production-line instrument.

[animalwithin]

I agree with Adam on this. I love the idea of a custom (or two). It allows me to own what I believe is the perfect guitar, be it a 6 sting, 7 string, etc. This is coming from a guy who wants no more than 3 guitars though. I understand what you mean in terms of those guys with loads of guitars. Like what Adam said, I think right now we are seeing an emergence of a whole bunch of custom luthiers, the fall of several veteran luthiers, and those who continue to offer great services/products stand their ground. Its like survival of the fittest, perhaps we'll only have a handful after a while.

[MetalDaze]

I don't see choice as a bad thing.

I hope nobody starts a thread with the title, "Too many hot chicks"

[mountainjam]

I don't agree with the thread title. Currently, the upper majority of luthiers come with a waiting list of some sort. The supply can't keep up with the demand. If anything, there aren't enough luthiers. And second, I think this new emergence of builders is strictly related to the growing pool of erg players. There are thousands of luthiers than can build you a Tele, probably a few luthiers in every town in the USA that could do that. And lastly, you are tired of seeing custom quilted guitars? I'm ....ing sick of the 5 million black Ibanez's in existence.

[animalwithin]

Originally Posted by MetalDaze

I don't see choice as a bad thing.

I hope nobody starts a thread with the title, "Too many hot chicks"

No such thing as "too many hot chicks"!!!!

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Thep

Fact is that most guitarists in this world would be happy on a Gibson or Fender, so the market is already very niched.

I wouldn't say that the custom guitar/bass market is incredibly niche, in fact it's more mainstream than it has been in nearly a thousand years. There are now thousands of builders out there thriving off of the market.

What's niche is those offering off-the-shelf ERG options. Though, the list of older builders who didn't touch the things before that are now embracing them is on the rise, not to mention all the new builders who have sought to fill the ERG-builder niche jumping on the wagon.

While Gibson and Fender are still the industry Juggernauts, at least in the US, go to Asia and parts of Europe and ESP is king, they no longer own 90% of the industry like they once did. There is a new generation of player now who doesn't see Gibson or Fender as the "older" crowd does. They're showing they're just as inclined to pick up an Ibanez or ESP or Jackson (still FMIC, but you know what I mean).

So if you're buying a high-dollar guitar, you want it to be unique,

Actually, if you ask most of the big, independent builders out there, most customers look for slight variations on a rather formulaic guitar. I'm sure that John Suhr or Tom Anderson can't even begin to tell you how many sunburst Strats they've made.

significant, and prestigious.

These two points it seems is what most folks looking into customs these days are interested in. Though, depending on who they choose, they don't always get it.

However, there are dozens of companies who are able to craft what appears to be a quality instrument now that there are nearly endless resources on luthiery online, in forums, videos, blogs, etc etc

Knowing how to build a guitar and actually doing it extremely well is FAR from the same thing.

It seems for every builder who comes up and does fantastic work, not just fantastic looking, there are several that, while they make decent looking guitars, they lack the finesse to make a truly outstanding instrument.

...precision machining

This reminds me of the constant CNC argument that comes up. There is no device that spits out a properly machined guitar in a "ready" state. At best it'll cut the shape really good and place the fret slots exactly where they should be, but that's not a complete instrument in the least.

I think your deal with 2018, someone who just got a CNC and thought that made them a luthier, highlights that.

and detail work can equate to a good guitar,

Detail is right, unfortunately not everyone who reads Melvin Hiscock's book and lurks the Project Guitar Forum can spot them.

but which luthiers can intentionally craft a unique "mojo" in their instruments with every piece they build?

I think the concept of mojo is just too darn subjective. A guitar with mojo to one person can have none to another.

While that is nice in regards to competitive prices, these affordable prices begin to reveal that there isn't much behind a custom guitar anymore. TONS of people can do it...(look at Patrick Sims not really the type of wise, passionate craftsman I'd like to think about).

Not everyone who builds guitars is on the same level. Often, the guys offering customs for $1500 make guitars on-par with $1500 guitars, but then you're just "spec shopping". When you're getting a custom you want something that not only has the specs you need, but also has a level of quality uncommon in the production market at any price bracket. You're paying for the builder's experience, time, and attention to detail and NOT the specs. This is a concept I see lost on a lot of folks.

I'll say it again, when ordering a custom guitar you are NOT paying for specs. It seems silly to me at times even, as the concept is pretty abstract to players who spent years being charged for specs from production guitar companies, but when you go custom things change.

So for me all of that really dilutes the idea of ordering a custom: it seems its really not all that unique or special anymore. So sure it be nice to have a guitar built to spec, but more and more I'm realizing that FOR ME, its not worth it by a long shot.

And that's totally fine when there's nothing outside of production guitars that you feel that you need. I don't think I'll ever get a custom, single scale, super strat. Why? Because there are already tons of production ones that fit the bill.

Now what I do plan on getting custom, are unique instruments that have feature sets that just don't exist in the production world and probably won't for at least a few more decades.

I also have a short list of builders who I've chosen due to their skill, not pricing or wait times.

With all these brands popping up, its hard to have an "it" factor, something that turns heads like a Bentley on the road. As beautiful as it is, seeing all these quilt tops is getting a bit stale...doesn't help with all the fake quilts on lower end guitars.

I hear you on figured maple tops.

[celticelk]

Originally Posted by mountainjam

And lastly, you are tired of seeing custom quilted guitars? I'm ....ing sick of the 5 million black Ibanez's in existence.

A-....ing-men.

[flo]

Might be an internet thing? I mean, if you were into guitars like 15 years ago, you knew the guitars from a few shops, a few books and a few catalogues.
Through forums like this, you get to know hundreds of guitars, brands luthiers etc. that you otherwise would never have heard of I guess. If you don't know that eightstring guitars with fanned frets and bkp's exist you don't dream of ordering one... would you have heard of Strandberg, Toone, Vik? Does that make sense?

[hiltz171jim]

I might as well join in on this and put out my opinion. I've been playing guitar for 7 or 8 years now and I have owned two Schecters, an ESP Ltd. and 4 Carvins. The Carvins, being semi-custom, have definitely spoiled me with their beauty and quality and their customization was what got me interested in them in the first place. I wanted a guitar that was unique and had pristine quality and based on Carvins customers (Jason Becker, Zappa, Vai etc,) I decided I'd go with them. Obviously I loved them as I now own 4. But after 4 of them I wanted something different and after being exposed to the custom luthiers that are available out there I started emailing a couple. Dylan of Daemoness was the first and only one of the 2 who did to email me back which actually said a lot to me. After looking at the guitars on the Daemoness website and his progress pictures and I fell in love with the design and his artistic abilities are just out of this world. Granted, I have never played one as I live in the USA and i doubt anyone around here in Pittsburgh has a Daemoness, but from what I've seen, what I've heard said about them from here and other forums, they seem like very elite instruments. Yes, Misha and Nolly had an influence but that is not why I chose to go with Dylan. Also, aesthetics were not the first of my priorities; I felt that it was time for me to enter the custom world and that I needed a new 7 string that suited my needs and wants perfectly, and Dylan seems to be more than able to accomplish what I have in mind. After I decided the specs was when I started thinking of aesthetics such as fancy woods. Oh and another thing I feel that luthiers MUST have is decent communication and one thing that surprised me was how quickly Dylan would reply back when I hadn't even made the deposit yet. All of these things drew me more towards a Daemoness and ultimately deciding to order one. So, I'm pretty sure I have made my opinion pretty obvious. Sorry for the rant haha

[Joe Harvatt]

Wasn't this the same as in the 80's when shredders were getting custom strat style guitars. Things have moved on, now there's a place for people making custom 7's and 8's.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by Joe Harvatt

Wasn't this the same as in the 80's when shredders were getting custom strat style guitars. Things have moved on, now there's a place for people making custom 7's and 8's.

The thing is, those in 80's, the "small builders", were who became the big guys today makers like Jackson, ESP, Tom Anderson, Charvel, Roscoe, Hamer, etc.

[Danukenator]

My deal is that I wanted fanned frets and 8 strings. I have no where else to go but a luthier...or Agile but whatever.

When most people say, "I bought a custom guitar," they aren't talking about Andrew WK's new ESP "custom." They are usually talking about a small outfit that produces a line of guitars that allow for spec changes ie. Vik, Blackmachine, Siggery, Oakland Axe Factory, etc.

Semi-custom is a better word for these guitars. I also like the idea that I can get a guitar with the exact specs I wanted. When I wanted my 8 string, I wanted a 25.5"-28" fan. I wasn't intrested in changing that because it wasn't as common as 25"-27". Now, I have a ten string on order. My options are even more limited than before.

When it comes to Mojo, it's the same as talking about a "fast" neck. It doesn't mean anything to anyone except for the person who is using the guitar. I don't think a lot of Ibanezs have a fast neck, because they are too thin for me to gel with. It doesn't mean they are bad but just different from what I like.

[Larrikin666]

Originally Posted by hiltz171jim

Granted, I have never played one as I live in the USA and i doubt anyone around here in Pittsburgh has a Daemoness,

Gimme a few months man. LOL. I'll let you check it out.

[TemjinStrife]

My issue with this explosion in "luthiers" is it's very hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Look at Invictus, Roter, Sims, BRJ, and any number of other shops that put out expensive, pretty guitars with serious build or finish flaws. Because of this, when guys like ViK or Daemoness first start posting or showing up, I pretty much dismiss them as "Oh great, another guy coming in to hawk his basement-built wares." Even if the initial response is favorable, it often takes but a few months for horror stories to start to percolate out, stories which are often exacerbated by the customers' antics.

It's very hard to figure out who does good work and who does not, and it always shocks me at the number of people willing to be the guinea pig and throw thousands of dollars at builders sight-unseen or on limited forum reputation alone. There's a very small number of builders I would ever consider buying from, primarily because I have met them, know them, and have played other examples of their work personally and been impressed.

[jbard]

Maybe I'm interpreting wrong, but are people really talking about private lutheriers putting out less consistent and worse guitars than production? Really? I've played so many dead ESP standard series and Gibsons it's not even funny. I've even seen some Custom Shops of major production companies that are complete lemons. Small start ups like OAF and strictly 7, etc, tend to have a passion and drive to make quality and just ....ing cool guitars that I don't typically see much out there. Maybe I'm reading the tone wrong or has there been an example of fly by night small custom shops that were a nightmare? As for Temjin's comment about BRJ, it's just my experience, but I've not seen many lemons from him and my Jekyll 7 to this day amazes me and I have Custom Shops from many different companies. Say what you will about his business practice, etc, but he can push out some incredible instruments.

I think my point is that I've seen lemons from just about every company out there.

[Polythoral]

On the 'it' factor, 'mojo' and whatnot, you simply need to be able to envision something unique and such, and then be prepared to dish out the money for whatever you choose. Don't regard the fact that most custom shops these days just seem to be exotic wood super strats as fact that making something unique or new is impossible, it's just because that is what people are looking for and want at this time, whether its the trend, looks good, or whatever other reason.

Also, as jbard said, I must agree that I've played Gibsons and Fenders over 1000 USD that are set up terribly and have lots of flaws, though there are tons of decent ones of course. I haven't had too much experience with ESPs. I've also played a JEM that had damn near razor sharp fret ends that made moving around the neck hell.

Quality control does seem a lot looser these days in general, which is unfortunate.

Also, as said, for people looking for headless, strange pick up configurations, ERGs, fanned frets, etc. there aren't many/any production options. The point of ordering a custom is to get exactly what you want and that's what you pay for exactly what you want, whether that's a simple 6 string super strat that'll be exactly how you want it or a 9 string fanned fret super.... of an instrument, it comes down to whether you are willing to spend the money on getting what you want.

Now, as for the subject title, which in actuality seems somewhat off from some of some aspects of the rest of your post, I don't think there's too many, and I don't think there's necessarily far more than there have been any other time. It's basically that with the internet there is now more ways to get your name out there and get business from all over, and there has been a growing interest in custom instruments because of their recent use in big name bands. I'm sure there's always been tons of luthiers, but most of their work remains local because you typically just wouldn't be searching online for shops all over the world to build you what you want.

And yeah, with how many there are and how the internet is, it's hard to judge how the instrument will be. I think one big thing is that people currently take the plunge just because they can afford it and what they hear and see in pictures, and in my opinion someone REALLY interested in getting the PERFECT custom guitar would be willing to spend money to travel and try out a luthiers work before ordering, and meeting the luthier. I think that's one of the only odd things with it.

[EOT]

If all I played was 6 strings, I would be perfectly content with any of the better quality production guitars. But I prefer longer scale lengths, more strings, and fancy woods. Gibson, Fender, PRS, or even Ibanez don't make what I'm looking for in 7 or 8 strings. So.....yeah, to the custom world I go.

[thrsher]

Originally Posted by mountainjam

I don't agree with the thread title. Currently, the upper majority of luthiers come with a waiting list of some sort. The supply can't keep up with the demand. If anything, there aren't enough luthiers. And second, I think this new emergence of builders is strictly related to the growing pool of erg players. There are thousands of luthiers than can build you a Tele, probably a few luthiers in every town in the USA that could do that. And lastly, you are tired of seeing custom quilted guitars? I'm ....ing sick of the 5 million black Ibanez's in existence.

This

[master of the human race]

I'm glad that I even own a guitar. It's not a custom with exotic woods and impeccable craftsmanship but it's a guitar. I don't see the point of wanting to stand out while you're already on stage nor do I understand shelling out thousands of dollars for such a simple instrument. As long as there are gear whores who pride themselves on male vanity, the custom builder will live on.

[jbard]

I'm sorry, but your post contradicts itself. You begin by admitting that customs out there have impeccable craftsmanship and then go on to say they are for gear whores who(sic) pride themselves on male vanity? Which is it?

Have you considered that some gear whores may collect guitars as a form of works of art? Like functional paintings? Or maybe those two 'same' guitars in appearance could play entirely different and inspire the player to approach things different depending on the guitar? I don't see that as male vanity. It sounds more to me like sour apples from someone who doesn't have the means to do it himself.

EDIT: With this said and the theme of this thread in general, I think gear whores may be more apt to want customs made. When you go through tons of guitars, you figure out what works for you and what doesn't on each guitar. You start wanting this neck with this body and this scale... this naturally leads you to customs. I have a ton of guitars and keep going through them, since part of the fun of the hobby is to try everything out there that I can. Once you figure that out it even builds useful knowledge from experience that could help other people that are looking for something specific in a guitar.

[jarnozz]

Isn´t it quit obvious that almost every guitar player kinda wants a guitar specially made for him/her? who doesn't want a beautiful handcrafted, custom build to our desired specs? A lot of us can't afford one or don't need one but I think everyone wants one. and for the title. I looked around on the internet to see how many luthiers we have here and there are like a few but they only make violins, flamenco guitars etc. globally well not really but here like 0 who can make you an erg guitar.

[TRENCHLORD]

I think the more custom shops the better for the sake of competition. (prices and quality)
Sorting through the mass of builders will always be a challenge for those wanting to try new shops.

[Necromagnon]

Originally Posted by master of the human race

As long as there are gear whores who pride themselves on male vanity, the custom builder will live on.

I agree at 50% on this.
Obviously luthiers will live till there's hundreds of guitarist that want hundreds of guitar. But it's called "offer/demand law". It's the basic of market.

And I trully think that, if there's some lassitude on custom guitars, it's because most of them are very similar. I mean, we see a lot and lot and lot of super strat. Ok there might be some differences but no more than 1%. Top wood change from curly maple to curly koa, or stuff like this. And I don't blame luthiers about that. They build what works and what customers want. I "blame" (no offense mean toward anyone) guitarist that don't want (fear?) to go out from standards, and also luthiers that constrained customers to some headstock shape, body shape, etc.

This my opinion.