Tuning UP? D'addario .007 .008 .0085 experiences

[EtherealEntity]

NOTE: I wasn't sure where to post this. Here seemed like the best idea to me. Feel free to move it.
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I recently ordered some .007, .008, and .0085 D'addario strings to test their tension.

I am (hopefully) soon getting a multiscale 9 string with 24.75" on the high end and intend to tune it to G#4. I want to be able to use normal strings,
normal technique, and normal stringing method (not have to gradually tune it up). I need to be able to play without worrying it will break.

So I have ordered these strings to test their breaking tensions on my 25.5" Ibanez 7 string. I have heard that the long distance between the nut and tuner, as well as the string-thru body, places extra tension on the string, so perhaps my 9 string design with neither of these will hold up better.

G4# on this scale length is by no means ambitious, but I wanted to just test these three strings and post the results up here for anyone considering similar tunings.
I've heard of people using these strings on much longer scales, as well as people breaking them on normal scales.

On the 24.75" scale length, the tensions of each string will be as follows;
len 24.75"

G4# .007 PL == 11.88#
G4# .008 PL == 15.52#
G4# .0085 PL == 17.53

On the 25.5";
len 25.5"

G4# .007 PL == 12.61#
G4# .008 PL == 16.48#
G4# .0085 PL == 18.6#

Equal tension on the 25.5" guitar would be somewhere between G and G#, but I will tune to G# just to give myself some extra headroom. Ideally, I will be using the .0085 string, to match tension with the rest of the set.

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D'addario .007

Day 1, Morning
Restrung and set up my guitar with the usual 11-49 set in D# standard, and a .007 high G#. I went for the .007 first because I figured;
-The string would hold up fine
-The tension would be too light for my liking
-I would get fed up playing it, and save wasting it, could tune it up to A and see how it holds there.

Well I've had it strung for about half hour and have played 10 minutes of light lead. The 12.61lbs tension actually feels ok next to my 17.48lbs D#, which surprised me.
It's a bit odd when bending though, as when my finger hits the second string I have to push harder than I was until then, to move the D# string away. I'm off to uni now so the string will be left to sit for a good 5 hours. Will put it to the test tonight.

Day 1, Evening
The string hasn't snapped during the day. I'm getting used to playing with a high string but the intervals are confusing! The guitar sounds much better like this than tuned down. The string hasn't snapped from bending, though I've only bent it a half step. Can't physically go any further with the other strings in the way, but I do suck at bending (Do low tension strings require more physical bending per increase in pitch??)
I'm going to practice some lead and theory with this tuning and tune it up to A later. I'm thinking it may break from bending at A after a while, due to its size.
I've decided in G# the .007 is definately a bit loose for ideal tension and the tone and sustain suffers slightly.

Day 1, Midnight
I played fingerstyle for around 2 hours, and another 2 hours of lead. The string has held up through plenty of bending, including several attempts to bend a full step. I've tuned up to A and played for a few minutes more, and am leaving it overnight. Maybe it will snap during the night like my .009 G# did in the past.

Day 2, Evening
The high A held up strong through 6 hours of playing today, including some full step bends. I attempted to tune to Bb, expecting it to break, and it broke at the tuner before reaching Bb (at around 15lbs of tension).

.007 Conclusions:
.007 breaking tension: ~15lbs.

-The .007 string is usable at 12.61lbs tension (G#4 25.5") with no worry of breakage. However, without fairly high action the low tension is not beneficial for tone and sustain.
-The .007 string is usable at 14.15lbs tension (A4 25.5"), but I would not feel comfortable using it live, as it snapped being tuned any higher. I expect it could well have broken from bending or just picking at some point in the future if I had kept it tuned to A. After all, you wouldn't use a high E that snapped before reaching F.
-I would recommend using this string at around 13.33lbs tension (A4 24.75") for best performance. Perhaps with a top loaded guitar and a shorter distance between the nut and tuner, I might tune to A4 on a 25.5".

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D'addario .008

Day 2, Evening
-I tuned the guitar back down to D# standard and put on a .008 G#. The 16.48lbs of tension feels a lot better, but I needed to raise the action quite a bit for the string to respond better. The string snapped after 10 minutes of playing, on my first attempt at a bend. I think I went just over a half-step. I did buy another one of these strings so I've strung it up again and will play as normal for a while without bending and see if it breaks.
-For some reason, I don't like this string as much as the .007 in A. Although the higher tension is nicer on my picking hand, it feels a bit unresponsive on my fretting hand and is somehow shrill.
-I tuned it down a bit to halfway between G and G# - "G.5". It felt and sounded a lot better. I think this string is over tensioned at G# 25.5" (16.48lbs). I also played it in G (14.68lbs). It felt very safe here although I prefered the slightly higher tension in "G.5" (around 15.5lbs).
-The string snapped at the tuner upon retuning to G#.

.008 Conclusions:
.008 breaking tension: ~16.4lbs

-The .008 cannot be played at G# 25.5" with this guitar. It's extra strength from size over the .007 does not make up for the increase in tension.
-This string seems best played between 14.68lbs (G 25.5") and 15.5lbs ("G.5" 25.5" or or G# 24.75").

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D'addario .0085

Day 2, Evening
-Once again the question is whether the slight increase in strength will outweigh the increase in tension. As I only have one of these strings I am not going to tune it up to G# yet. I will play in G, and tune it to G# when I am finished, like I did with the .007 gauge and Bb.
-While preparing and eating dinner, I tuned the string to G and retuned it every few minutes as it would drop to F#. So it had around 30 minutes stretching time before I played.
-I played lead in G (16.57lbs) for an hour. I experienced similar issues, though not as bad, as with the .008 string. It was slightly unresponsive and hammer-ons did not ring out too well. I tuned up to G# (18.6lbs)
-I've played lead with plenty of bending in G# for a few hours. The string feels very slightly over tensioned to play, but feels strong and I am confident playing it. This is my favourite of these three strings to play. It feels slightly better tuned down to "G.5" (~17.5lbs).
-I want to enjoy playing the guitar tuned like this for a while more, so I am not going to tune this string up to find it's breaking tension yet. I will update this post when the string either a) Breaks from playing in G#, or b) I tune the string up to A/higher if it reaches.

.0085 Conclusions:
.0085 breaking tension: To be updated

-The .0085 seems perfect for G# on 25.5" scale length (18.6lbs). It would feel a bit better around 25" (17.88lbs).

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Overall conclusions:
-The .007 string needs around 12.6lbs of tension (G# 25.5") to play well. It is usable for this tuning but does perform better in A (14.15lbs), however it could probably break quite easily due to its size. The .007 string is perfect at around 13.3lbs tension (A4 on 24.75").

-The .008 string is not ideal for a 25.5" guitar. The increase in tension from the .007 string outweighs the increase in strength, and the .008 string is likely to break in G# (16.48lbs). It is playable in G (14.68lbs) but could benefit from a little more tension. This string would be good for tuning to G# on 24.75 (15.5lbs).

-The .0085 string is very usable at 18.61lbs (G# 25.5"). It is strong enough to be treated as a normal string. I would use this for G or G# on a 25.5". It would also be perfect for G# on 24.75" scale.

Scale length--------Gauge to use-----------
25.5"-------------.0085/.008-----.0085----------.007
24.75"---------------.0085-----.0085/.008-------.007
-------Tuning:---------G-----------G#-------------A

I hope this is of use to anyone considering tuning their guitar up and wondering about strings. Sorry if the structure here is a bit of a mess!

[vansinn]

I haven't had time for close reading all of your very interesting info yet, so..

Not meaning to play negative pants, but I think you'll end up with the same result as others, myself'ish included, have reached: Ordninary strings aren't designed for A4.

I tried a Rotosound 008 on an old 25" Dan Armstrong, tuned up to E, then slowly one stop at a time, let it rest 20 mins, next stop...
I did reach A4, could play it, and on a daily basis gradually started bending ½-1 stop, then 1½ stops.
A week later, I came home from work, and it had snapped
Didn't snap over nut or saddle, nor at ball end or the tuner, but somewhere around 15th fret (frets are nicely polished, so it wasn't 'cut').

I have no doubt you'll have better results with a 007 on your 24.75" scale, but also feel sure ordinary strings will snap way too early - and worst, snap at uneven time intervals, meaning you'll have a hard time knowing when to change strings to be sure the show can go on.

If ordinary strings could be tested to last at least several days past two weeks, we could simply change that top string every bi-weekly, say on a Sunday, but I'm pretty sure it'd need to replaced every week - and even so, it'll likely still snap right when the action is hot.

[Explorer]

There is a sad truth I hadn't wanted to accept over the years, but I've ultimately made my peace with it: a guitar string at 25.5" will break at or just above G#4.

A thinner string will have an easier time getting there, but is inherently weaker, and therefore will break.

A thicker string is inherently stronger, but therefore needs more tension due to its thickness, and therefore will break.

With the exception of the Octave 4 Plus strings, no other guitar string will get above G#4 for long.

Don't feel bad about trying, though. I've been trying since the late '70s/early '80s. It's good to have those reminders pop up every so often.

[EtherealEntity]

Thanks both for your input
Time is indeed one thing I didn't leave much of here to test the strings. I am hoping my .0085 G# will hold up - if it lasts a week or more them I'm guessing it is 100% usuable on 24.75".

[vansinn]

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

Thanks both for your input
Time is indeed one thing I didn't leave much of here to test the strings. I am hoping my .0085 G# will hold up - if it lasts a week or more them I'm guessing it is 100% usuable on 24.75".

But it isn't.. even if this single randomly selected string does hold on for a week+, you'll need to test several over time to find a statistically acceptable lifespan.
C'mon dude, even so, do you really feel like changing that string every week?

I'd rather obtain the exact correct string to scale, pitch and bendability from O4P, which, given the rather short scale, will likely last a fairly nice time

Hehe, I really wish your continued testings will reveal that at this scale, so-and-so-many of this-or-that string all did last two full weeks(+) with 1-1½ stops of daily bendings

(no pun intended at all)

[Customisbetter]

Fun Fact: I am a one of the few 007 users on this forum.

Not so fun fact: the 007 will NEVER get to A4 @ 25.5".

I can keep my Dad 7s at G# for two weeks. After that the minimal oxidation from playing weakens the string enough to break. Also bending the G# up a semitone will lead to breakage. Troy is another person who can attest to that as he was the audience for that test.

I do however keep my dad 7s ate Gb and G for lengthy periods of time without any issue.

[EtherealEntity]

But it isn't.. even if this single randomly selected string does hold on for a week+, you'll need to test several over time to find a statistically acceptable lifespan.
C'mon dude, even so, do you really feel like changing that string every week?

I will test more strings - I may end up playing these .0085s in G# 25.5" until I get the 9 string. I'm enjoying it a bit more than having a low string.
And no, of course I do not feel like changing it every week But I would presume, that if it were to last 1-2 weeks on 25.5", then it would last much longer on 24.75". I will continue to update this thread with whatever happens.


Fun Fact: I am a one of the few 007 users on this forum.

Not so fun fact: the 007 will NEVER get to A4 @ 25.5".

I guess it does depend on the guitar. As is written above, I played A4 for 6 hours, with bends, and who knows how long the string would've lasted if I had not intentionally broken it. And there was somebody on this forum who had used one at a much longer scale length with atleast some success.

Of course thanks all for sharing your information and opinions - hopefully this thread can be of use to many

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

The string hasn't snapped from bending, though I've only bent it a half step. Can't physically go any further with the other strings in the way, but I do suck at bending (Do low tension strings require more physical bending per increase in pitch??)

Cool post. I've discovered that thinner plain strings, and roundwounds with thinner cores (such as a .022), have less pitch response to bending. The fatter plain strings (.016p+) have a huge response.

Perhaps A4 is asking too much? ... without using special strings such as O4P perhaps we should just accept that G4 is the limit at 25.5". That's high enough for me. We can always tune DGCFADG

[bostjan]

Think about this -

Strength of a material is directly proportional to thickness.
The tension is inversely proportional to the thickness.

Therefore, the maximum frequency is not dependant at all on the string thickness (for plain strings of the same material).

I've never snapped the high A on my Oni (600 mm), and I bend it like a regular string, and I've only ever used d'addario plain steel .007"s.

Prior to owning my Oni, I kept my Samick tuned up to G# with a .007" at 25.5". It was a little touchy, but worked long term with care. Tuning a regular string to G4 at 25.5" should be no problem.

IMO, either use a shorter scale length and a regular string to get to high A, or use an o4p, or one of those zirconium amporphous metal strings.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

I guess it does depend on the guitar. As is written above, I played A4 for 6 hours, with bends, and who knows how long the string would've lasted if I had not intentionally broken it. And there was somebody on this forum who had used one at a much longer scale length with at least some success.

Of course thanks all for sharing your information and opinions - hopefully this thread can be of use to many

If I recall correctly, someone claimed they had regularly tuned a string to G#4 with a scale length longer than 25.5". In that same thread, I did a quick calculation and found that the same string would have been tuned to A4 at 25.5". I was going to be in the same area as the poster, and have friends in that same area, so I was more than willing to witness the miracle, or have someone else check it out, since it would have turned over 25 years of experience on its head. Sadly, that didn't work out; it wasn't something they were currently doing, and it had been a bit in the past. I'd have paid for the price of strings, just to see it repeated, but that never came to be.

Now, imagine that with what you've seen with your own eyes, and with what you've heard from folks who have tried it themselves, that someone claimed they regularly got to A4 with any string but an O4+ string. You might be doubtful, no?

Anyway, I'm glad that people occasionally take the empirical route, rather than just parroting what they've heard. For being another who is attempting to push the boundaries, even if it doesn't work, +1 to your rep, good sir.

[EtherealEntity]

Just popping back here to let you know that the .0085 G# has held up for two weeks strong now

[SirMyghin]

Originally Posted by bostjan

Think about this -

Strength of a material is directly proportional to thickness.
The tension is inversely proportional to the thickness.

I am going to nitpick a bit here. STRENGTH of material is not proportional to thickness, it is a material property (see constant). The load capacity of the string is proportional to a thickness, as it will break when the ultimate strength is exceeded. The strength is a stress, load/tension is a force. The correlating factor is AREA as stress is force/area.

Ethereal, are you going through any special means to keep the strings from oxidizing (stuff like fast fret or whatnot?)

[vansinn]

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

Just popping back here to let you know that the .0085 G# has held up for two weeks strong now

Cool! at 24.75" or 25.5" ?
With/without bending, and if so, how much?

I had a RotoSound 008 last a week at A4 on a 25" with 1-1½ stop bends

[EtherealEntity]

25.5". Quite a bit of bending in the first few days, not so much now as it's not really a big part of my style. I'd say it's gone through a good 100 or so half-step bends. There's some more detail in the original post

Vansinn - that's great results! My experience with D'addario .008s was pretty awful so far and I don't know why!

And no, I'm not using anti oxidants. I wipe my strings down after playing, fairly thoroughly (~30 second process). The guitar has been left standing in an unzipped gig bag.

There are definately conflicting results in this thread and others regarding tuning up...but my purpose was to find my own conclusions and post them here. So far I'd definately say it's possible to tune to G#/A confidently with normal strings at 25.5". I'd probably still avoid A unless playing 24.75", if I was gigging. I'll try some more .007s soon and see how they go.

[troyguitar]

I've had good experiences tuning to G using .007 to .009's of all sorts and scales from 25.5" to 27.5" - and have had bad experiences tuning any higher no matter the string or the guitar. It's never been consistent enough to be something I'd use on stage, so it's not worth it to me. This summer I plan to fix that problem by building some multi-scale guitars with very short scales (probably like 23" on the high end).

[MetalGravy]

I guess using a 7 at 25.5" w/a Kahler would be out, too, huh?

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

There are definately conflicting results in this thread and others regarding tuning up...but my purpose was to find my own conclusions and post them here. So far I'd definately say it's possible to tune to G#/A confidently with normal strings at 25.5". I'd probably still avoid A unless playing 24.75", if I was gigging. I'll try some more .007s soon and see how they go.

Wut.

I know that you got one string to A4 at 25.5", but don't know if I'd draw any huge conclusions from that one string. Did you do this more than once, in order to do it confidently?

Maybe you didn't post a few other successful tests....

[ixlramp]

I doubt that string at A4 would last much more than 6 hours playing time

[zoukophone]

regarding the breaking tensions mentioned in the original post - if the string breaks at the tuner it may not be reaching its maximum possible tension, more likely the tuner is stressing it and making it break at a lower tension than it otherwise might manage.

if it breaks somewhere away from any contact point, then it is definitely the limit of the string itself.

of course this is not a hard and fast rule, the string might break from a tiny internal flaw that could be anywhere along its length and just happens to be at the tuner, but if they consistently break at the tuner, then try winding the string with cotton or otherwise protecting it as it bends around the tuner, especially if there are any edges at all that it has to cross like the edge of the tuner hole.

[EtherealEntity]

It is indeed quite possible and likely that the .007 high A would have broken soon after the 6 hours experience I had with it. Note that I said "So far..". It is by no means a huge conclusion. I will be doing more tests like this, but at the moment I am strung with a low to record one of my songs. Like I said, I would not feel confident using it on stage, unless I had a 24.75" (and have run a few more tests). The G# seems fine to be used as a normal string so far, though.

[Durero]

I'm keenly interested in the experiences in this thread. About 20 years ago I tried to reach A4 on a 25.5" scale Brian Moore guitar and I tested every brand and gage I could get my hands on (still have piles of .007 D'Addarios left over from then because I could only special order them in sets of 20.)

Back then I knew nothing about allowing the steel to stretch for long periods before going up to A4 so, although I tuned up very very slowly, all the strings failed before reaching that pitch.

The strings which consistently reached the highest pitch before breaking were .009 gage strings. They would pass G#4 and almost reach A but not quite.


I've had great experiences with O4P strings reaching Bb4 at 25.5" or Ab4 at 28.5" but I'm very interested to see how close to that level of performance can be achieved with other string brands.

[ixlramp]

Originally Posted by ixlramp

I doubt that string at A4 would last much more than 6 hours playing time

Originally Posted by EtherealEntity

It is indeed quite possible and likely that the .007 high A would have broken soon after the 6 hours experience I had with it. Note that I said "So far..". It is by no means a huge conclusion.

I want to apologise for that comment. After reading zoukophone's posts in the other thread I now have a more open mind on this. I'm now tempted to see how high I can get on one of my basses.

[Durero]

zoukophone's post which Mat is referring to: Tuning D'Addario .0085 to A4 Video

Well worth watching

[stuglue]

What is the tension for the 007 tuned to Ab on a 26.5" scale? Also what is the tension on the 008 & 0085 at the same scale length?

[Rook]

Best success I've had with tuning up is drop B with a high f# on a seven, it gave the 'uptuned' feel and awesome playability and the F# was easily achievable, you don't gain too much range wise though.