Why guitars cost what they do...

[canuck brian]

Originally Posted by bonethug

As trenchlord put it. It's a free market economy. I wont pay thousands of dollars for a guitar, simply because a guitar isn't worth the price of my car plain and simple. You can try to argue with me that it's worth it until your blue in the face but it won't change my opinion.

I think it's great that some people have the money for these instruments but I don't. Am I jealous? of course! I'd love to have a set up where I can have everything I want! Who doesn't?

Seriously costs of wood and parts? If they're so high why would you even consider getting into the business. These tangential attacks on me are getting ridiculous. If your going to come at me at least stay on the topic from the points I have tried to previously make. Character assassination and name calling should be left to gradeschoolers. With that being said I'm sorry for saying that you all ride luthier cock but stop trying to turn me into a pariah for not agreeing with you.

People who buy guitars from guys like me, Darren, Mike Sherman, Myka, Oni, KxK pay for it because they want to because it is in fact, a free market economy, just like you stated. Goes both ways.

Why don't you put down the thesaurus looking up words like "tangential" and actually read what I posted. You yourself said that PRODUCTION guitars should not be more than $500 bucks and I asked you to explain WHY. Stop trying to get a pity parade happening by avoiding explaining your own ridiculous statement and playing the victim card. Acting like you're offended when people call you names after you've told everyone in the thread to stop riding luthier cock and gay ("remember to cup the balls") is pretty sad.

I really do understand that most people look at custom guitars from luthiers (like me) and can't justify the costs. That's more than understandable. I got into the business of building guitars because I wanted to build guitars. Kinda like people who build custom choppers - they did it because they wanted to. I didn't really care how much it was going to cost either.

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by canuck brian

People who buy guitars from guys like me, Darren, Mike Sherman, Myka, Oni, KxK pay for it because they want to because it is in fact, a free market economy, just like you stated. Goes both ways.

Why don't you put down the thesaurus looking up words like "tangential" and actually read what I posted. You yourself said that PRODUCTION guitars should not be more than $500 bucks and I asked you to explain WHY. Stop trying to get a pity parade happening by avoiding explaining your own ridiculous statement and playing the victim card. Acting like you're offended when people call you names after you've told everyone in the thread to stop riding luthier cock and gay ("remember to cup the balls") is pretty sad.

I really do understand that most people look at custom guitars from luthiers (like me) and can't justify the costs. That's more than understandable. I got into the business of building guitars because I wanted to build guitars. Kinda like people who build custom choppers - they did it because they wanted to. I didn't really care how much it was going to cost either.

I used production guitars as an example.

Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.

Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.

costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30

fixed bridge- 30$

machine heads-25 for 6

fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.

So all of these materials cost under 200. Add in labour cost from a high tech facility along with cost of electricity & water for the makes. Your not really looking at that much.

But these guitar companies will keep over charging because they know you guys will keep buying.

As for everything else I believe I touched on it all in my last post and I really hate to sound like a broken record.

[elq]

Originally Posted by bonethug

blah blah blah.

What about the amortized cost of machines? Factory rent? Insurance? Marketing cost? And the ever so evil profit?

Surprisingly enough - there is no machine that spits out ready to paint guitar bodies or necks. No machine that will install frets. No machine to pick quality wood.


Perhaps you should only try to speak authoritatively on something AFTER you're an authority, or at least have a modicum of experience.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by bonethug

I used production guitars as an example.

Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.

Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.

costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30

fixed bridge- 30$

machine heads-25 for 6

fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.

So all of these materials cost under 200. Add in labour cost from a high tech facility along with cost of electricity & water for the makes. Your not really looking at that much.

But these guitar companies will keep over charging because they know you guys will keep buying.

As for everything else I believe I touched on it all in my last post and I really hate to sound like a broken record.

You're so stupid hahaha....

Lets break it down for a "decent instrument" built by a luthier not a mass produced company.

GOOD tone woods are the requirement for any good guitar.

Simple hard rock maple neck wood -> 20$ for 1 neck
simple rosewood for a fret board -> 20$ for 1 neck
good tuners -> 45$ for 1 neck
3 peice body blank made of alder -> 60$ for 1 body
decent pickups -> 100$ for 2 humbuckers
decent bridge -> 80$ for one bridge set
good screws and bolts -> 10$ for set
fret wire -> 25$ for 1 neck
nut -> 15-30$ depending on style
truss rod -> 30$ for a shitty one
springs for bridge -> 5$ for 3
decent pots -> 10$ for 2
knobs -> 10$ for 2
good switch -> 10$ for 1

So thats it right? Thats SHITTY stuff for a bare bones player built by yourself for 400-425$.........

OH WAIT.....
Router -> 60$
Files -> 100-200$
fret hammer -> 40$
bandsaw -> 2-400$
power sander -> 50-75$
Levels -> 30$
measuring tools -> 30$
Air compressor -> 200$+++
spray tools for finishing -> 100$
nut saws -> 40$
crowning file -> 50$+
drill -> 50$+
drill bits -> 30$
Router bits -> 40$ for a good set

Then we have consumables.

Sandpaper -> 20$ +
glue -> 8$
paint -> 100$ (for good quality paint)
thinners -> 30$
alcohol -> 15$




You sir, haven't the slightest ....ing clue what you are talking about.

[bob123]

Lets break it down for you.

[QUOTE=bonethug;2952929]
As trenchlord put it. It's a free market economy. I wont pay thousands of dollars for a guitar, simply because a guitar isn't worth the price of my car plain and simple. You can try to argue with me that it's worth it until your blue in the face but it won't change my opinion.[QUOTE=bonethug;2952929]

Price of a car? You live in japan on a navy base. Whens the last time you've even owned a car?

Originally Posted by bonethug

I think it's great that some people have the money for these instruments but I don't. Am I jealous? of course! I'd love to have a set up where I can have everything I want! Who doesn't?

To be jealous is one thing, but you take your jealousy and act on it verbally against others "OMG THEY ARE BEING RICH SNOBS! I CANT BE BOTHERED TO GET A BETTER JOB, SO THEY ARE ALL JUST ASSHOLES FOR BUYING EXPENSIVE THINGS!!!" Really dude?

Originally Posted by bonethug

Seriously costs of wood and parts? If they're so high why would you even consider getting into the business. These tangential attacks on me are getting ridiculous. If your going to come at me at least stay on the topic from the points I have tried to previously make. Character assassination and name calling should be left to gradeschoolers. With that being said I'm sorry for saying that you all ride luthier cock but stop trying to turn me into a pariah for not agreeing with you.

1) I broke down actual costs of decent parts in the post above.
2) You should use words you don't know the meaning of (i.e. your usage "Tangential attacks" is misplaced. If you use pedantic words, use them correctly is all I ask...)
3) Its not "Assassination" when its self inflicted. And the "Gradeschoolers" bit coming from the guy that said "you are riding luthier dick" And "Dont forget to cup the balls" is pretty rich.
4) "pariah"? really? You're going to use that word and try to sound all educated? You're a dipshit, no usage of garrulous verbiage will convince me or anyone else that you are not said dipshit.



Thank you have a nice day

[EtherealEntity]

Originally Posted by bonethug

Passive pickups are essentially magnets with some copper spun around them. I see that costing 15-30 bucks at most since they're easy to make and the cost of materials is stupid low.

Next the wood. When you steer away from all those flamboyant woods like flamed spalted maple you'll see that they are pretty cheap. So I'd say around 20 bucks for the body wood and and around 40 for the neck.

costs of hardware and wiring, probably another 30

fixed bridge- 30$

machine heads-25 for 6

fret wire,paint, knobs all cheap easily made products as well as the nut. For all of them maybe run about 75 combined.

Go and get somebody to build you this wonderful guitar, then come back and honestly say it doesn't feel and sound cheap.

[Purelojik]

not to mention that using the cheapest parts is the surest way to ensure you spending more money on repairs. That is, if you ever get it in tune long enough to finish a song. guitarpartsdepot.com had some cheap stuff from china but they are outta business which kinda sucks now but what to do.

I built a guitar when i was abroad studying medicine using what i could get. then i developed an appreciation for high quality parts. When i came back home i built my own baritone seven string (its in the lutherie + sevenstring section ). The parts alone cost 500+. i was lucky enough to get that hipshot bridge from keith merrow for nearly half the price(120), and sperzel offers discounts to builders so theres a discount there too. the wood i used three piece sapele which was priced lower. Even then with all the discounts the minimum i was able to pull off was about 500-550 for parts alone for the guitar. this doesnt include the money spent to buy new power tools, sandpaper and bits.


EDIT: also the Pair of Bareknuckle pickups in it were 300 added to the price so the actually total was about 800+
i can easily see how if i was doing this for a living i'd have to charge custom prices to accommodate everything, and if i was to order a custom, i'd understand why they charge what they do to a reasonable extent.

[ASoC]

To be honest I used to think that all these custom guitars were way over priced and stuff like that.

Then I was like "psshh I'll just do all this shit on my own and save myself some money"

I was wrong. I'm already more deep into a guitar than my best 6 string (granted it was used)

3 piece alder body $50
Maple neck $100
A cheap temporary bridge $20
Tuners $30
Pickups (gifted to me but they cost about $200 new)

I'm not even close to having all the parts I need, not to mention the tools I need to get so that I can continue. So no, I dont think the pricing of a custom guitar is at all ridiculous, also I play trumpet and the production trumpet I want is $3000 street price (I could get a daemoness for that kind of cash), I can only imagine the msrp

[canuck brian]

Originally Posted by ASoC

To be honest I used to think that all these custom guitars were way over priced and stuff like that.

Then I was like "psshh I'll just do all this shit on my own and save myself some money"

I was wrong. I'm already more deep into a guitar than my best 6 string (granted it was used)

I'm not even close to having all the parts I need, not to mention the tools I need to get so that I can continue. So no, I dont think the pricing of a custom guitar is at all ridiculous, also I play trumpet and the production trumpet I want is $3000 street price (I could get a daemoness for that kind of cash), I can only imagine the msrp

Once you actually get into the costs, its really eye opening.

I'll break down a bit of my costs for a pretty normal 7 string with Dimarzios.

Body Wood + Headstock - 2 pieces mahogany - 70
Neck wood - roasted maple with purpleheart stringers - 40
Fretboard - 20 - 50
Tuners (after shipping) 80
Bridge (after shipping) 65
Dimarzio's (after shipping) 150 - 170
headstock decals - 10
Volume pot - 8
3 way switch - 20
graphtech nut - 12
straplocks - 20
fretwire - 10
truss rod - 25
------------------------------------
Low cost - 530 in parts + wood.

Keep in mind this is before I've spent any time actually working on the guitars aside from ordering all the parts, building relations with company account reps to get ANY price break I can on parts and woods.

In the last month, I had to replace most of my files after working on a couple of necks with stainless steel frets. That ran me another $100. Sandpaper, glue, finish and a legion of other tools have rung up another $400 - 500 and that doesn't include the fact that I've already got somewhere between $2000 - $3000 in hand tools and at least $5000 in power tools.

To get a price break on Dimarzio pickups for customers, I have to order at least 10 at the same time. Even with the discount, it's still approaching $700 - $800 after shipping.

Then there's the nearly 10K on the CNC. This doesn't include all the programming that is required that I had commissioned as well as getting a LOT of templates made for all the hand work that is required.

$1000 on a 15 inch bandsaw so I can resaw tops now.

The bearings went recently in one of the routers in the CNC - $200.

Honestly, with all the costs associated with it and all the time involved over the years to get to the point I'm at now....I wouldn't change a thing. I love it.

[BlackMastodon]

Before I came to this site, I would look at higher end Gibson and Fenders and whatnot (production guitars, as well as their custom shop models) and think to myself, "I would never pay more than $2000 for a guitar, it doesn't make sense to me."

Then I came here and saw the majesty that was ViK, Daemoness, KxK, Toone, .strandberg*, Decibel, etc. and thought to myself, "I would totally pay atleast $2000 for those ."

When I started my first build, I bought a cheap router bit ("$10? Pfft, people are suckers buying these $30-40 bits) and a cheap licensed Floyd bridge. Needless to say I realized the importance of spending some extra cash on good materials and tools.

The funny thing it that when I went on StewMac and was making a list of fretting and nut making supplies, the total ran me about $400 for fretting stuff (and that's basically the minimum of what I wanted, there's a very good chance I would need to buy more stuff when I realized I don't have the proper tools) and then another $400 for nut making tools. That's about $800 for tools that will only be used on half of the guitar, that doesn't include a drill/drill press, a router, saws, chisels, sander, etc.

Even if a builder used a CNC machine to make guitar bodies/necks, those things aren't cheap either, and once again you shouldn't buy the cheapest one you can find. On top of that, it takes time to draw up the plans and make them right (I'm sure there are quite a few test bodies that need to be made before the builder decides it's ready for production).

So if you really believe that a <$500 BC Rich Warlock sounds and plays as good as anything else, then you must be high off your ass or you just really don't care about tone/playability.

[EtherealEntity]

Originally Posted by BlackMastodon

So if you really believe that a <$500 BC Rich Warlock sounds and plays as good as anything else, then you must be high off your ass or you just really don't care about tone/playability.

*shudder* Every time I remember how my cheap Mick Thompson signature felt, I literally cringe. I've played some awfully set up, dirty shitty guitars but this was literally the worst.

[nickgray]

Huh? Custom guitars are pretty cheap, if you ask me. Even if you have a really crappy job you should be able to save about $100 each month if you put some thought into it. In about 4 years you should save something like $5000 or so and buy the most amazing guitar that will last you a lifetime. The 4 years may seem like a lot, but let me ask you, how long does it take to grow out of a production guitar?

Even if you're really passionate about playing and you're able to practice 3, 4 or even 5 hours each day on average, I reckon it would take at least 3 years to get somewhat good enough to justify a custom guitar. And in the meantime, if you're short on cash, you can always buy a solid second hand (an old Ibanez RG, for instance) for ~$600 and simply trade it or resell it if you want to try something new.

I mean honestly, if you have a crappy job, can't be bothered to change it or save any amount of cash (hell, even $50/month will buy you a second hand custom shop guitar in 4 years), aren't really good at playing, well, why the hell would you want a custom? Seems to me, every single person that whines about the price of a premium guitar have absolutely no idea what goes on into building one and therefore is automatically unqualified to provide any opinion on the matter.

[Rap Hat]

For a lot of people, there's the idea that a custom/expensive guitar will allow them to play better, i.e. "reach their full potential". I saw this a toooon in college, and it invariably ended up with the person in question $2-4k poorer and blaming their stagnation on something else. This attitude can lead to bitterness about pricier guitars, as they can't see why something that costs a few grand doesn't make you a better player. Of course there's one guitar that they know will make them better even if the last 3 didn't.

I started on a Squier and slowly progressed from there, to Epiphone, BC Rich, Ibanez, Gibson, PRS, and now customs. If my skill stagnates I try to avoid the "new guitar will fix it!" excuse, which is why I ended up with a Variax. Whenever I get seriously stumped I just pull that out and see what kind of sounds I can create. Still, GAS is there, and I catch myself occasionally thinking "Hey, I bet I could write awesome riffs with the M8M!" before I realize that I already can with my current guitars.

[JackOmino]

Originally Posted by darren

Some of you may remember a post i wrote on here a little over a year ago outlining some basic economics of running a small guitar business and why many people's price expectations for boutique or "custom-shop" instruments are totally unrealistic.

Every few months, somebody asks me for a link back to the original post, so i decided to edit, update and re-post it as an editorial piece on the Decibel site.

Why guitars cost what they do: Part I | Decibel Guitars

Part II will be published early next week.

Darren just read your articles, I'm an Italian luthier and totally agree with you. For sure some of your experiences are common to mine so enjoy that I' m not alone when receive custom request for 8 strings guitar at 500$!!! It' s incredible I think these things happen only to me. I believe luthery is an hard and passionate work to do, you must spend lot of years and money in research, experimentation, creation or of specific tools and so on. Luckily all these things are reflected on our instruments. It's exactly what experienced musicians hear when they try custom guitars or basses. They sound totally different from industry large scale productions, they are ready and fast to play, have all an unique character and design. You hear woods vibes. It's true: they cost what they do...
J

[trickae]

Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example)

but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by trickae

Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example)

but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?

Not all Alembics are five figures, in fact most dealers can keep them in the mid four figure range. If you don't go crazy with inlay or exotic materials you can even get them into the $3k range for the more traditionally shaped models like the Orion, Essence, or Rogue.

The quote generator is the MSRP (the price no one pays) and is extremely out of date. There are some $$$$$ Alembics for sure, but they're either decked to the 9s or they're super limited editions/show models.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by trickae

Can someone justify Alembic prices to me? I don't mind 3000-5000 for a guitar (ken lawrence for example)

but what makes an alembic worth as much as a decent car?

you think a ferrari or lamborghini costs 400,000$ to make?


They make them for the uber rich, and the uber rich get them "just to have it". Instead of a rolex, get a guitar!, thats all it really is.



For the cost of an alembic, it better come with a super model nympho for me to justify the cost of them haha.

[darren]

Let's not forget the time involved in actually designing stuff as well. Original designs don't just fall out of the sky into your lap.

I've literally spent THOUSANDS of hours designing, refining and redesigning my bodies, necks and headstock, as well as coming up with my naming and identity, building a website, etc. And thousands more hours learning a CAD application and translating my 2D designs into production-ready 3D stuff. And then there's prototyping and other R&D activities. All that stuff isn't free, and my time is actually worth something. (I've been working as a professional graphic designer for over 18 years now.)

Probably the biggest unique selling proposition i have in Decibel is my design work and 20+ years of thought and research that has gone into my builds. And on that factor, you do get what you pay for.

[darren]

Also, there's a big difference between being a manufacturer and being an artisan.

Pretty much everything i'm building right now is a one-off. There's a lot of design time and hand work in every build. I'm hoping that will evolve as i get more tools and get my workflow running faster.

There are two ways to go: Be a big manufacturer and do a cheap import line made in Korea or China by people who earn pennies a day (there's your $500 guitar right there), or stick to doing things by hand, dealing personally with every customer, and charging enough money to make a decent living while keeping the business growing and profitable.

The first way is strictly low cost, low margin, high volume. The second way is higher cost, good margin, but MUCH lower volume.

At this point in time, i'd rather make a living making 50 premium guitars a year by hand than by being a manufacturer of 50,000 guitars a year made by cheap labour with marginal-quality parts and materials in some far-away land.

[trickae]

thanks guys.

I was basing my 'judgements' of the alembic prics based on a cocobolo top 7 string that passed the 12,000 mark before I touched the inlays and neck wood.

Still I'm sure they make wicked sounding guitars - but alas I'd have to be bald with a beer belly by the time I can afford one.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by trickae

thanks guys.

I was basing my 'judgements' of the alembic prics based on a cocobolo top 7 string that passed the 12,000 mark before I touched the inlays and neck wood.

Still I'm sure they make wicked sounding guitars - but alas I'd have to be bald with a beer belly by the time I can afford one.

Some things are expensive just because they can...

[aaron_rose]

Originally Posted by USMarine75

^ He's got a good point. Anyone know Dan at Oni's phone number? I was going to let him know he has a "sweet job" and that he should do 200+ hours worth of custom work for me for $500. Hopefully I'll remember to remind him how easy his job is too.

And Thrash... it's Ferrari's responsibility to charge me less... not all of us can afford what they are asking.

"I don't want to work harder so that I can get what I want, it's your responsibility to make your shit cheaper so that I can afford it". Ahhh kids these days... it's the can-do generation... now get off my ....ing lawn.

/rant

dude this is retarded, i live off of part time bidded jobs which are few and far between and i saved for an entire summer for a strictly 7 8 string, its taken more time than planned to finish that build so i got impatient and started building own 7 string, piece by piece, wood by wood, year and a half of research, the whole shabang, .... an a, just yesterday i was standing there holding a god damned whale penis in my hand and actually considering it as a nut for my guitar cause im that broke.

custom guitar is for someone who wants more than the factory offers, its not rocket science,

plus if u work for the military u get paid just fine yer her house helped to be paid for , school all that shit, what the .... is what i got to say.

The build price for my 7 string so far is pretty high cause im not a builder registered, all i can do is hope people are nice to me on the phone, if they aren't i buy it for whatever price i can get. my numbers are almost reaching 1000, u add in the hundreds of hours it took to make this all happen to get the guitar of my dreams i have to build it and i have to pay for it and i have to be patient. Hands on craftsmanship is priceless. Granted factory's kick out really good guitars these days, i played a prs Korean the other day and was really happy with it overall, ya i can make music with rocks and sticks but why the hell would i do that when i can give a shit and love this art form.

[canuck brian]

^^^ You do realize that USMarine75's entire post was a sarcastic rant, right?

[aaron_rose]

do now! hahaha ...., troll!

[USMarine75]

^

BTW, bonethug did have one good point though. In all fairness, you really are supposed to cup the balls.