Why guitars cost what they do...

[Thrashmanzac]

Originally Posted by bonethug

Ya, but dude it's a niche market. Forgive me if I don't see the point in complaining that people want cheaper prices for more. Personally I don't think a guitar should cost more that 500 when produced by a major manufacturer. I can understand business expenses but making custom guitars won't ever be a skill that you can get rich off of. maybe pianos or some classical instrument will fetch a good living.

i disagree. not many people will buy a custom decibel, or daemoness, or any number of "niche" makers compared to the number of people that will buy a stock ibanez, but that does not mean the builder cant make a good living. look at prs. i imagine ferrari would sell alot less 458 italias than ford would sell focus's, does that mean ferrari is poor?
on a side note, i think if a builder is into luthiery to make fat stacks, they are in it for the wrong reasons.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by bonethug

Ya, but dude it's a niche market.

To some degree yes, but overall the custom guitar market is one of the few parts of the industry that's thriving, even in hard economic times. It's nothing new, and there are a lot of shops that have been around for decades.

Forgive me if I don't see the point in complaining that people want cheaper prices for more.

There is a difference between wanting things to be cheaper. Hell, I wish I could buy more quality guitars for less money. Doesn't everybody? Compared to complaining about it without really understanding what goes into making a guitar, whether it be a $200 Chinese made Strat copy, or a $5000 USA made, custom Alembic.

Personally I don't think a guitar should cost more that 500 when produced by a major manufacturer.

That's a perfectly fine opinion to have. Tons of folks don't see the need to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a guitar, and that's 100% fine.

Though, could you please explain why you think that guitars can be produced consistently, and with a high degree of quality for so little?

I can understand business expenses but making custom guitars won't ever be a skill that you can get rich off of.

False.

Plenty of builders have made comfortable livings for themselves though instrument making. It's not the rule, by far, but it's certainly not impossible. They might not own multiple Ferrari's or summer houses in Venice, but they can make a nice living and have quite the legacy.

maybe pianos or some classical instrument will fetch a good living.

Actually, those have both been waning in recent years, and for the last few decades in the case of Piano techs.

Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs.

As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

To some degree yes, but overall the custom guitar market is one of the few parts of the industry that's thriving, even in hard economic times. It's nothing new, and there are a lot of shops that have been around for decades.



There is a difference between wanting things to be cheaper. Hell, I wish I could buy more quality guitars for less money. Doesn't everybody? Compared to complaining about it without really understanding what goes into making a guitar, whether it be a $200 Chinese made Strat copy, or a $5000 USA made, custom Alembic.



That's a perfectly fine opinion to have. Tons of folks don't see the need to spend more than a few hundred bucks on a guitar, and that's 100% fine.

Though, could you please explain why you think that guitars can be produced consistently, and with a high degree of quality for so little?



False.

Plenty of builders have made comfortable livings for themselves though instrument making. It's not the rule, by far, but it's certainly not impossible. They might not own multiple Ferrari's or summer houses in Venice, but they can make a nice living and have quite the legacy.



Actually, those have both been waning in recent years, and for the last few decades in the case of Piano techs.

Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs.

As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.

You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.

[Rap Hat]

Originally Posted by bonethug

You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.

Firstly, why would you need a custom? If music is a serious career and you need something production guitars literally cannot offer, then the cost of a custom guitar should be seen as a business expense. Worth saving up for and possibly eating ramen for a year so you can better your business(band). If you just want a custom because they're sought after and popular, it might be worth reassessing your needs if you can't afford it. Maybe you decide you need a custom, then you can do what tons of people here do and don't spend ANY money on non-necessities and live like a monk until you can afford it.

Secondly, why should a luthier only charge for cost of materials? Would you work a job where you do 75 hours of work for free, with the money you bring in only going towards equipment for the next job? I mean, landscapers and contractors will charge more than the cost of mulch or cement, are you saying they shouldn't?

I've seen Darren respond to your exact sentiment before, and (to me) it boils down to: this explanation is to show people what is involved in a custom (from Darren). Other Luthiers may charge less, and you end up with situations like Roter, where the luthier charges basement bottom prices and the customers get absolute shit. So if you want that, go for it! There's no reason to bash a luthier for wanting his business to, you know, actually make money, and with the amount of builders now you aren't "locked" into spending $4000. Just know that a builder willing to charge $500 for a full custom probably doesn't respect the craft (or has terrible business sense).

Just my , 'cos I'm surprised someone took this as an insult to their income.

Side note: I make a pittance, bordering on unlivable if I don't plan what I spend. But I'm willing to forego entertainment, fancy foods, drinking, drugs, and more so I can afford the guitars I want.

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by Rap Hat

Firstly, why would you need a custom? If music is a serious career and you need something production guitars literally cannot offer, then the cost of a custom guitar should be seen as a business expense. Worth saving up for and possibly eating ramen for a year so you can better your business(band). If you just want a custom because they're sought after and popular, it might be worth reassessing your needs if you can't afford it. Maybe you decide you need a custom, then you can do what tons of people here do and don't spend ANY money on non-necessities and live like a monk until you can afford it.

Secondly, why should a luthier only charge for cost of materials? Would you work a job where you do 75 hours of work for free, with the money you bring in only going towards equipment for the next job? I mean, landscapers and contractors will charge more than the cost of mulch or cement, are you saying they shouldn't?


I've seen Darren respond to your exact sentiment before, and (to me) it boils down to: this explanation is to show people what is involved in a custom (from Darren). Other Luthiers may charge less, and you end up with situations like Roter, where the luthier charges basement bottom prices and the customers get absolute shit. So if you want that, go for it! There's no reason to bash a luthier for wanting his business to, you know, actually make money, and with the amount of builders now you aren't "locked" into spending $4000. Just know that a builder willing to charge $500 for a full custom probably doesn't respect the craft (or has terrible business sense).

Just my , 'cos I'm surprised someone took this as an insult to their income.

Side note: I make a pittance, bordering on unlivable if I don't plan what I spend. But I'm willing to forego entertainment, fancy foods, drinking, drugs, and more so I can afford the guitars I want.

You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!

On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars.

I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......

[JamesM]

There are people who work themselves to death for little or no return.

There are people who literally couldn't spend all their money if they tried and do nothing every day.

That's just the way the world works. You aren't more entitled than another just because you do something more difficult or risky.

[MaxOfMetal]

Originally Posted by bonethug

You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!

On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars.

I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......

I still don't think you really understand the articles here. It's not about complaining, it's about educating. Yeah, some of it can seem like complaining, but that's really not the intended goal.

I also don't think you have a really good grasp on what being a skilled craftsman means. You don't just wake up one day and you are one. You spend years of your life working towards a goal. Yeah it's not the military (), but it's not exactly "easy". It might get easier decades down the road, but it's still something that take years to even come close to being "good".

It kinda seems like you're really bitter about your own career, which you seem to feel underpaid for and that it's a very stressful challenge on a daily basis. I'm not saying it isn't. From the sounds of it, you might just be right. I don't have the hardest, or easiest job in the world, but I don't go comparing it to others.

[USMarine75]

^ He's got a good point. Anyone know Dan at Oni's phone number? I was going to let him know he has a "sweet job" and that he should do 200+ hours worth of custom work for me for $500. Hopefully I'll remember to remind him how easy his job is too.

And Thrash... it's Ferrari's responsibility to charge me less... not all of us can afford what they are asking.

"I don't want to work harder so that I can get what I want, it's your responsibility to make your shit cheaper so that I can afford it". Ahhh kids these days... it's the can-do generation... now get off my ....ing lawn.

/rant

[bob123]

Originally Posted by bonethug

You make a damn good argument but when I read this thread I saw it as a "sit down, shut up and accept the rules I make for lutherie". It's like a huge FU to all of us with horrible jobs and rubbing our noses in the fact that we can't afford a custom. I'd kill to be in you guys shoes.

You have three options

1) reenlist, make some rank, and get paid more. I did ok on E6 pay -.-
or
2) get out, go to school, get a good job and get paid more.
or
3) shut the .... up and quite whining about what you can and can't afford. You're in the military, your job is NOT that difficult.

[Aurochs34]

Good reads. Thanks!

[anthonyferguson]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

Guys with five figures to drop on Violins, Cellos, and Basses are going for vintage stuff, not new. In fact the biggest companies in classical instruments are making cheap stuff for beginners and schools, not highly prized one-offs.

As for Pianos, it's the same case as classical instruments. Not to mention that digital pianos are getting good to the point of replacing most intermediate pianos.

I make pipe organs for a living we've made 3 new instruments in the space of a year and have a 2 year waiting list-not all classical instruments!

[drmosh]

Originally Posted by bonethug

You've misunderstood me. I said 500 for a major manufacturers product. Im just saying that there are many jobs that suck out there and pay next to nothing. I don't see why he is complaining about the market when he has the sweetest job in the world that pays decently!

On your side note, I don't have the luxury of any of those things you mentioned + the guitars.

I don't mean to give you guys my life story. I'm only using myself as an example. There just has to be a counter argument. I don't mean to offend anyone's lutherie career but you guys have to admit the job is sweet. Ya there are instances when you worry about the market prices and your business. Just remember nothing is ever going to be easy. With that said I think lutherie is much easier tactical combat casualty care. just sayin......

You can hardly fault other that can afford the custom guitars they buy though, that's just ridiculous. Nobody is rubbing your nose in it, that's a terrible mindset to have.

People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?
Any job is a job, lutherie may look "sweet" to you but it;s hard ....ing work and takes years of dedication.
The grass is always greener on the other side

[Rap Hat]

Originally Posted by drmosh

You can hardly fault other that can afford the custom guitars they buy though, that's just ridiculous. Nobody is rubbing your nose in it, that's a terrible mindset to have.

People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?
Any job is a job, lutherie may look "sweet" to you but it;s hard ....ing work and takes years of dedication.
The grass is always greener on the other side

Also isn't it the case with some of the small builders that it's only a side job? Someone figured it out a while back that the pay averaged out to like $15 an hour for someone doing $3000 custom guitars - for a supposed "sweetest" job that's pretty low, and definitely not enough to live comfortably on if you're anything but single.

E: Also, you won't always have orders. So that $15 an hour may only be for half the year, and if business slows down you're ....ed if you don't have a "real" job to fall back on.

(this definitely doesn't apply to all small luthiers, not trying to imply it's a poor-paying job in general)

[elq]

Originally Posted by drmosh

People that make money worked really hard to get where they are, nobody makes lots of money by chance (discounting lottery winners and the kardashians ) and you're telling them now they have it easy?

All I do is sit on my ass and occasionally type some strange looking gibberish into a computer, that MUST be easy... right?

But I will rub it in...

[canuck brian]

I'm not really sure what on which landmass I can build three guitars and make my annual salary of my actual full time job. My god if i could do that I'd be driving a Ferrari on my way to my mansion in the middle of the 1000 acre plot of exotic trees i had imported from Africa. I almost work two full time jobs with the luthier work I do on top of my network engineering job I have to finance my passion. Last time i checked, charging even 4000 for a custom guitar was out of the range of MOST people and generally considered really high.

Is lutherie a sweet gig? To the guys that are managing to make a full time living off it, probably, but my god man, there is no chance that making 15000 - 20000 is the norm for ANYONE. The guys that are making a full time job of it have invested hundreds, if not thousands of hours perfecting their craft and spent some ungodly sum of money on tools, materials and machinery.

To actually believe that no guitar "should cost more that $500 when produced by a major manufacturer" is a statement that is, at best, ludicrous. The second you get into using higher quality parts, usually manufactured in higher quality facilities on higher quality machines by skilled workers, your costs go up. Cheap, low quality instruments made with lower quality parts in areas of the world that don't put as much work into QC and whatnot can come to you at the price you're wishing.

[USMarine75]

Originally Posted by bob123

You have three options

1) reenlist, make some rank, and get paid more. I did ok on E6 pay -.-
or
2) get out, go to school, get a good job and get paid more.
or
3) shut the .... up and quite whining about what you can and can't afford. You're in the military, your job is NOT that difficult.

I wrote a huge response, but in the end I deleted it and I'm just gonna go with "^ this".

I'm assuming he wasn't drafted...

I bought a Peavey Wolfgang and 5150 212 combo on Little Cleaning Party Leader money (E-3... about $900/mo take home, back in the day)

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by USMarine75

I wrote a huge response, but in the end I deleted it and I'm just gonna go with "^ this".

I'm assuming he wasn't drafted...

I bought a Peavey Wolfgang and 5150 212 combo on Little Cleaning Party Leader money (E-3... about $900/mo take home, back in the day)

I got attacked from everyone for not riding luthier cock.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by bonethug

I got attacked from everyone for not riding luthier cock.

You get attacked for being dumb and whiny. I don't recall me sucking up to any luthier anywhere. For god's sake, have some accountability, or at least some personal pride in your statements.

but for now :

[TRENCHLORD]

I don't mind if any builder charges $20,000 per unit.
It's a free market, and if I chose not to pay it then i can go with one of the great for the money $500-$1000 asian made models, or I can try building one myself.

Just like any form of skilled labor there is a period of eating it while you develop your techniques and skills.
I can only imagine how much material I'd have to scrap when learning.

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by TRENCHLORD

I don't mind if any builder charges $20,000 per unit.
It's a free market, and if I chose not to pay it then i can go with one of the great for the money $500-$1000 asian made models, or I can try building one myself.

Just like any form of skilled labor there is a period of eating it while you develop your techniques and skills.
I can only imagine how much material I'd have to scrap when learning.

well put.

[bonethug]

Originally Posted by bob123

You get attacked for being dumb and whiny. I don't recall me sucking up to any luthier anywhere. For god's sake, have some accountability, or at least some personal pride in your statements.

but for now :

remember to cup the balls.

[canuck brian]

Originally Posted by bonethug

I got attacked from everyone for not riding luthier cock.

No, you got "attacked" because you're an idiot troll. You claim luthiers have it easy while you're knee deep in gore. Don't like your situation? CHANGE IT.

You clearly have no understanding of ANY manufacturing environment, lack any grasp of concepts relating to the creation of ANYTHING and generally come off like some guy pissed off because other people have the cash to drop on guitars that they want while you're stuck playing your Squire strat thru a little 15 watt amp.

Why don't you enlighten me on why people should only be paying at most $500 for "hunks of wood glued together" from larger companies? Please, break down the costs of tools, woods, time spent and other details of the business from the perspective of the mass produced cheap guitars such as Agiles. Here's your chance to prove everyone in this thread to be idiots.

I'm dying to bask in your wisdom, oh great one.

[bob123]

Originally Posted by bonethug

remember to cup the balls.

AM I DOING IT RIGHT?






Such a troll....

[bonethug]

[QUOTE=canuck brian;2952435]No, you got "attacked" because you're an idiot troll. You claim luthiers have it easy while you're knee deep in gore. Don't like your situation? CHANGE IT.

You clearly have no understanding of ANY manufacturing environment, lack any grasp of concepts relating to the creation of ANYTHING and generally come off like some guy pissed off because other people have the cash to drop on guitars that they want while you're stuck playing your Squire strat thru a little 15 watt amp.

Why don't you enlighten me on why people should only be paying at most $500 for "hunks of wood glued together" from larger companies? Please, break down the costs of tools, woods, time spent and other details of the business from the perspective of the mass produced cheap guitars such as Agiles. Here's your chance to prove everyone in this thread to be idiots.

As trenchlord put it. It's a free market economy. I wont pay thousands of dollars for a guitar, simply because a guitar isn't worth the price of my car plain and simple. You can try to argue with me that it's worth it until your blue in the face but it won't change my opinion.

I think it's great that some people have the money for these instruments but I don't. Am I jealous? of course! I'd love to have a set up where I can have everything I want! Who doesn't?

Seriously costs of wood and parts? If they're so high why would you even consider getting into the business. These tangential attacks on me are getting ridiculous. If your going to come at me at least stay on the topic from the points I have tried to previously make. Character assassination and name calling should be left to gradeschoolers. With that being said I'm sorry for saying that you all ride luthier cock but stop trying to turn me into a pariah for not agreeing with you.

[Konfyouzd]

Just a testament to what Darren said:

I'm having a custom built by a hobbyist for ONLY the cost of materials and it's running me in the ballpark of $1200.00.

If he were trying to eat and/or turn a profit imagine what it'd cost me.

Oh yea and Brian is a luthier--a skilled one. Chill, "thug."