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Unread 02-11-2009, 05:24 AM   #51
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Totally agreed. If i can find the time, im going to take up many at once Im not too flexible, and even after dancing for several years i never got any more flexible, so im honestly a little worried about taking on something like Hapkido (which does have some ties to Tae Kwon Do)... Especially when things like Systema, Krav Maga and Ninjutsu really don't need much flexibility at all (even Silat doesn't need that much).

What think you?
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Unread 02-11-2009, 05:40 AM   #52
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I know that some of the Korean systems had grading requirements vis a vis kicking height (I know, its a bit silly) but I also remember that most of them were realistic in that they realised not everyone acquires flexibility at the same rate or to the same level - so basically I wouldn't worry if you wanted to do Hapkido.

I always thought the latter three looked like more fun however - theres a certain "rough edge" to them that I admire
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Unread 02-11-2009, 05:47 AM   #53
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THe last 3 are more my kind of style, to be sure, but, i've checked it out, and 2 of them (Systema and Ninjutsu) are only taught in Brisbane (1hr away....) and i have no license yet

So atm it looks like i can take on Hapkido, Krav Maga, and possibly Silat.
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Unread 02-11-2009, 04:14 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ElDuderino View Post
I guess the point I am trying to make is that you can be the hardest striker in the world, but that's not going to help you when you get taken down and are on your ass, which is where 90% of fights end up.



Here, a black belt in shotokan faces a jiu-jitsu practitioner and as soon as he is on the ground, all of his training just went out the window.
There are numerous ones online as well for TKD guys knocking the complete shit out of jiu jitsu guys- try to stand up to a properly trained TKD is usually a bad call as most of the jiujitsu guy's training went out the window (i've done both btw.) I recently watched a Systema practiitoner take on a brown belt in brazillian jiu jitsu in person. I should rephrase that to "utterly humiliate" the BJJ guy.

Fights can go either way. You can be the best ground fighter in the world, but if your opponent knocks the living shit out of you before you even grapple, all of YOUR training went out the window. Besides, in a real fight, i'm going to ram my fingers into your eyes/ears, punch your throat as many times as possible, attempt to crush your nasal cavities, fishhook and generally attempt to immediately hospitalize someone. Most of the dirty tactics I learned were actually learned from a grappled position (like gouging your eyes.)

90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. Most of the time a BJJ guy will attempt to take it to the ground might be a better way of phrasing it.
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Unread 02-11-2009, 06:18 PM   #55
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There are numerous ones online as well for TKD guys knocking the complete shit out of jiu jitsu guys- try to stand up to a properly trained TKD is usually a bad call as most of the jiujitsu guy's training went out the window (i've done both btw.) I recently watched a Systema practiitoner take on a brown belt in brazillian jiu jitsu in person. I should rephrase that to "utterly humiliate" the BJJ guy.

Fights can go either way. You can be the best ground fighter in the world, but if your opponent knocks the living shit out of you before you even grapple, all of YOUR training went out the window. Besides, in a real fight, i'm going to ram my fingers into your eyes/ears, punch your throat as many times as possible, attempt to crush your nasal cavities, fishhook and generally attempt to immediately hospitalize someone. Most of the dirty tactics I learned were actually learned from a grappled position (like gouging your eyes.)

90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. Most of the time a BJJ guy will attempt to take it to the ground might be a better way of phrasing it.
There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.

"Jenny, I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time."
- Forrest Gump
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Unread 02-11-2009, 06:22 PM   #56
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There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.
Yeah BJJ is actually so much more applicable generally.
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Unread 02-11-2009, 07:04 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ElDuderino View Post
There is a reason you don't see any MMA fighters with a TKD or karate background. They simply cannot make it in a ring with guys who are strong grapplers and have any striking ability. There may be videos of TKD guys knocking the shit out of BJJ guys, but I haven't seen any. Every video I have seen, the opposite has happened, even when the BJJ guy is inexperienced and his opponent has 10+ years of training. I believe BJJ is the most effective self-defense martial art there is. Also, if you are in a fight and dirty tactics such as eye gouging and fish-hooking are your only defense, chances are you are in serious trouble.
The thing that TKD doesnt take into account, is room. Same with most martial arts, bar those taught to defense forces (Systema, Krav Maga, Ninjutsu, possibly Silat, and there are a few others whose names elude me). The thing with TKD is that generally, it relies on having a bit of room between you and an agressor, and/or ideally, enough room to fling horrifically over-complicated kicks at them... Take something like Systema, and put them in the 'ring' (in, say, a club) and TKD guy gets assraped by a pudgy russian guy (i posted the video below ).

Im not saying that you cant defend youself with things like TKD and Karate, its just that they arent prepared at basics for an actual encounter, and require a great deal of "on the fly" changes to the art itself to be truly efficient, unlike Krav Maga, whose goal is to take someone down in the quickest way possible, and ensure that they cant get up...

Watch this, the fat russian dude cracks me up soooo much

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Unread 02-11-2009, 07:11 PM   #58
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^ 1.54 is raw ownage!
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Unread 02-11-2009, 07:27 PM   #59
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How's the pudgy guy tho
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Unread 02-11-2009, 07:31 PM   #60
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I've been doing Muay Thai since I was 7
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Unread 02-11-2009, 09:23 PM   #61
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^ Woah, very nice Not my favorite style, but god damn is it effective in a fight Awesome stuff.
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Unread 02-11-2009, 09:46 PM   #62
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Muay Thai is definitely some badass stuff - very effective.

"Jenny, I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time."
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Unread 02-12-2009, 12:23 AM   #63
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Yeha, i appreciate the fact that it doesn't ignore the lower half of your body, good stuff.. Not to mention the fact that all of the guys who do it are massive....
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Unread 02-12-2009, 01:06 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demoniac;1376628

It's probably a personal thing, as most boxers are [I
giant[/I], but i never feel like it could be effective, especially seeing as how a whole half of your body (so far as im aware) is ignored... To be efficient you have to be taught a pefect combination of grapples, kicks, and punches, and weapons are a bonus. What we were taught was to escape first and foremost, and then to fight if there were absolutely no other options.

It always gets me how little some otehr Martial Arts are actually about 'self defence'...
im 32 now 6 foot 3 and 180 ish. in high school i was through school about 5 foot 100 maybe 115 pounds. as i said before i boxed for a number of years. and got into fights for being a "punkrokskatefag". most fights went like this. hill billy talks shit. i hit hillbilly 5 or 6 times before he has realized what happened. from there out it was the old "ground and pound" others where hill billy swings i side step and refer to result #1 lol. now on the other hand. alot of my losses where due to hill billy football guy tackling me and givin me the ground and pound! in a real fight you cant just stand and box with someone! i always tried to strike first as hard and fast as possible. just so happened boxing made me hit a little harder and faster than the average guy. BUT!! once on the ground i was FUKD! and that happened alot, especially cuz it was usually more than 1
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Unread 02-12-2009, 01:24 AM   #65
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Thats the kind of thing im talking about, it takes a very open minded MMA to actually win in all four generic situations (kicking distance, punching distance, grappling, and floor), as most MMA take on only the styles that they like (so they pick a position, and tend to stick with it), and most actual fighting styles do not focus enough on all of them to begin with...

Nice work tho (Demoniac hates hillbillys...)
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Unread 02-12-2009, 02:37 AM   #66
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I've done a little muay thai on and off. Realistically concentrating on a single style is a mistake, since they clearly have pros and cons. You can argue about BJJ vs muay thai all you want, the simple solution is to cross train and learn both. I'd like to do some grappling/mma in the future for that reason, but in terms of stand up 1 vs 1 I love muay thai.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v-UQ5XnLz8

Sure against multiple guys or a good grappler he's probably ....ed, but hoooooly shiiiiiiiit.

Jetzt liegst du hier, ganz regungslos, in meiner hand und meinem schoß, du bist so kalt...
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Unread 02-12-2009, 03:14 AM   #67
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I used to do Shotokan Karate, got to Nidan (2nd Dan) and graded with Sensei Keinosuke Enoeda (RIP). Stopped around 2001 since i didn't want to chance injuring my hands (guitar). I was going to go for my 3rd dan but at the time (probably is still) the age limit for that was 21, and i'm only 21 now.

Sometimes i think about taking it up again but i wouldn't be able to train regularly due to gigs/rehearsals.

Last edited by Stephen; 02-12-2009 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Spelling error :( lol
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Unread 02-12-2009, 03:47 AM   #68
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^ Wow, congrats dude... Its a shame that so many people seem to have to give it up I really want to actually see my cousin again, i havent seen him since he got his black belt TKD, and started Capoeira... So i need to beat him up... god damn showboating taekwondoeira-flipping bastard
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Unread 02-12-2009, 05:02 AM   #69
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*snip - other stuff I agree with*

Watch this, the fat russian dude cracks me up soooo much

Mikhail Ryabko!!

The man's a beast. Never met him personally but I had a work colleauge who trained with him and Vladimir (Vassiliev, the tall, serious dude in the suit) whenever they were in the UK. Very, very cool stuff and he's one of the nicest guys you'll meet by all accounts.

Systema is probably an excellent art for guitarists btw, you never have to really endanger your precious fingers and hands
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Unread 02-12-2009, 05:10 AM   #70
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I like the fact that it doesn't seem as hell-bent on total destruction of your opponent, unlike Krav... Means that you're less likely to get in trouble with the law as well
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Unread 02-12-2009, 05:31 AM   #71
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Aye, the option is there of course but its more about control - and its very adaptable to situations other than the 1on1 face-off.

AND you get to wear those crazy Russian BDU's which are hella comfortable instead of some white battle pajamas
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Unread 02-12-2009, 05:39 AM   #72
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What's your take on Systema as a whole? I dont really know that much about it, so what would you say its like compared to others?
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Unread 02-12-2009, 08:03 AM   #73
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Well, I only did a little bit but I found it hard to adjust being a hard stylist to that point - there's a little in common with Aikido (circles....oh so many circles) and a lot of common sense (they strive to make you re-use your known techniques in new ways so that you don't have to re-learn blocks and strikes) but if you can learn to relax into their methods its very good - definately the most fluid and efficient art (in terms of how much energy you exert) that I've encountered ......at least on par with Aikido I'm told.

One of the first drills we did was simply having someone push you in the shoulder. Learning to give way and use your body mechanics to launch swings simply from the momentum they give you is odd, but very effective.

The next drill was to be pushed in the same way, but if you notice when you're pushed and go with it, your arms will naturally want to swing with your body...so you simply torque through the waist and generate a strike - a simple slap to the side of the head.

Its quite amazing how hard you can slap in that situation, and how much disorientation you can cause (cupped plam, slap to the ear....its very unpleasant if used for real).

Its been a few years so coming up with specifics is tricky - I mainly recall that once i relaxed out of the "hard" mentallity (caused me problems when trying Wing Chun as wel) the techniques are remarkably simple to pick up and very effective. I know that most self-defence techniques end up with the opposition on the floor and you're presented with the choice of doing the Chip Shop Riverdance on their head or beating a hasty retreat.

Succinctly - its about intuition and improvisation to solve problems. There's few "right or wrong" choices if you can make them work and you only apply as much force as needed whilst learning to keep focused.

If you find a good teacher, and aren't as set in your ways as I was, its an excellent art to study.
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Unread 02-12-2009, 08:08 AM   #74
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I trained at one point a very long time ago when I was about 18 - 20 at some WE DAO KAN, which is a very rare martial art from Laos...

I also realised that I needed my hands in order to play guitar so I had to stop because its was very much related to submission hand torsion which was not very good for the hands

Here is a link I found googeling.....

We Dao Kan
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Unread 02-12-2009, 09:58 AM   #75
 
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Theres a lot to be said, but the big thing I would like everyone watching the MMA TV craze to remember is that MMA is not actual fighting. Last I checked I would not be allowed to kick out anyones knee, groin or throat. It is a very restricted sporting event, and the dudes are tough as hell but they train for a sport, not for fighting. If I had to pick fighting a shotokan practitioner or an MMA athlete, I'd pick the later, that way I dont wind up dead. People think that when you take a shit on MMA you're trying to sound like a tough guy. Im not, but I am an experienced fighter, often cases twice as long as these MMA athletes, and Ive been through enough matches/fights to know whats real and whats sport.

Posting one video of a grappler taking down a shotokan (a shotokan with no stance or sense I might add!) does not prove superiority of a style over the other. Again, that grappler is reduced to nothing if he has to fight on his feet, and totally fails the second two opponents comes into the picture.

It also needs to be mentioned that we always take it to the ground, the only difference is that we finish the fight on our feet and secure it on the ground. Again, you need to be prepared for whatever, not just geared up to take it to the floor.
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