Functional Strength vs. One-Dimensional Strength

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by The Reverend

So there's no such thing as relative strength versus absolute strength? For instance, if I'm 6'2", 180 pounds, but stronger than other people, doesn't that mean I'm relatively stronger than them? As in I use more muscle fibers or something?

This was my original attempted point (I used the wrong terms, apparently), but I guess it doesn't matter in the end...


Also, the body fat thing; isn't the (average) human with abs somewhere around 10-15%?


I know my sister (college athlete) swears that people on her team have 3% or 2% or some ridiculous amount, but I thought the lowest healthy amount was around 5-6%.

[soliloquy]

Originally Posted by JWGriebel

This was my original attempted point (I used the wrong terms, apparently), but I guess it doesn't matter in the end...


Also, the body fat thing; isn't the (average) human with abs somewhere around 10-15%?


I know my sister (college athlete) swears that people on her team have 3% or 2% or some ridiculous amount, but I thought the lowest healthy amount was around 5-6%.

well....if you work out and keep yourself busy, your immune system will be really really strong. as such, guys like my brother in law have a body fat % that ranges from .5 when hes REALLY killing himself in the gym to about 5%. the only time he ever gets sick is when he gets a headache or something and he turns into a total baby as hes not used to getting sick. i think the last time he was sick was like 5 years ago or something

[Murmel]

^
0,5% body fat when killing himself in the gym?

Dude, you're dead as .... with 0,5%.

[Infamous Impact]

Originally Posted by soliloquy

well....if you work out and keep yourself busy, your immune system will be really really strong. as such, guys like my brother in law have a body fat % that ranges from .5 when hes REALLY killing himself in the gym to about 5%. the only time he ever gets sick is when he gets a headache or something and he turns into a total baby as hes not used to getting sick. i think the last time he was sick was like 5 years ago or something

You sure that it's 0.5%? Last time I checked going below 5% is dangerous because you'll be dehydrated to the extreme from lack of subcutaneous water, along with the fact that 3% body fat is inside you and is made up of essential fats.
This is 3% body fat.

[EtherealEntity]

Yep haha..your numbers are totally wrong. Even pros barely go below 5% afaik and that's for a matter of hours for the show. I think most compete around 7%?

This is apparently 3%, for the record.

[EtherealEntity]

Ninjad haha!

[soliloquy]

what method are you guys using for checking body fat?
there are several different kinds and each tells a different story. let it be the water/dunk test, or the pinch test, or those machines you either stand on, or hold in your hands.

i always use the electric ones and they each tell me different things :s

[TRENCHLORD]

Is that skinny mucsle man holding a bible and praying he won't drop dead any second lol?

[Harry]

Well if we're talking IFBB Pros competing at Mr Olympia level, I'd say 4% is what they tend to compete at.
It's often claimed to be 3%, but I doubt it and I would suspect the most accurate ways of testing would show it to be 4%. Still very low, but not as low as the "just about dead" level.
Some people would just about drop dead at a TRUE 3% bodyfat. Not everyone, but I doubt it's sustainable for any periods of time for some people.

The hydrostatic body fat testing (the 'drunk testing) and body fat scales are terrible inaccurate. Caliper testing is pretty decent.
DEXA scans are easily the most accurate it seems, short of an actual dissection.
More info :

Dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know a few people that have got DEXA scans done and the results seem to be very much in line with what their bodies look like.

All this talk about bodyfat aside, unless you're an IFBB Pro competing for Mr Olympia, there is just really no need to be dropping below about 7%.
I'd say 7% is about the condition you would see male fitness models at for photoshoots and stuff. A lot of guys that don't compete in bodybuilding but just want to look good for some musical festivals where they go shirtless will often drop to that kind of percentage with certain "supplements".

For a totally natural lifter that doesn't plan to compete, there's honestly very little need to drop below 8.5-9% bodyfat. That sort of bodyfat level can also be maintained year round with no negative health effects too

[Uncreative123]

Originally Posted by JWGriebel

This was my original attempted point (I used the wrong terms, apparently), but I guess it doesn't matter in the end...


Also, the body fat thing; isn't the (average) human with abs somewhere around 10-15%?


I know my sister (college athlete) swears that people on her team have 3% or 2% or some ridiculous amount, but I thought the lowest healthy amount was around 5-6%.

Abs begin to become visible around 15%, not defined until 12%, and not popping until 9%. Your sister doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. First of all, as already discussed, 3% bodyfat is professional contest bodyfat level- levels that are only sustainable for very short amounts of time. Secondly, women have higher body-fat percentages than men. A woman at 16% bodyfat is about equivalent to a man with 10-11% bodyfat. Figure/fitness competitors are usually around 12% bodyfat. Therefore a woman at 3% bodyfat would be equivalent to a male at -3%bodyfat.

Originally Posted by soliloquy

well....if you work out and keep yourself busy, your immune system will be really really strong. as such, guys like my brother in law have a body fat % that ranges from .5 when hes REALLY killing himself in the gym to about 5%. the only time he ever gets sick is when he gets a headache or something and he turns into a total baby as hes not used to getting sick. i think the last time he was sick was like 5 years ago or something

lol, dude where are you getting this information from? The only way to get .5% bodyfat would be dead, rotting in the ground for two months. Nobody stays at 5% bodyfat. Those are contest levels. IFBB's are usually around 7-9% in the off-season. Just because somebody says they're "X% bodyfat" doesn't make it true.
Calipers are the least accurate method of measuring bodyfat. For me they've often given estimates that are too low. Electronic scales work decently (not the bullshit hand-held ones) and the best (and least convenient) method is the under-water testing one.

And let's not overlook the most important factor when it comes to these levels of bodyfat: it takes some serious elite knowledge, planning, and "supplements" to get down to super low level bodyfat.

[BIG ND SWEATY]

Originally Posted by Wingchunwarrior

that is one thick mother ....er

[Captain Shoggoth]

I've been wanting to test my bf% for a while, just to get some clarification haha
Calipers the best way for doing it at home then?


also, on thread title: surely the former helps the latter on principle, and development of the latter in several areas aids the former

[mattofvengeance]

Originally Posted by Uncreative123

No, I don't think YOU know what an ectomorph is. If you are even eating half of what you claim and not gaining any weight you have a serious genetic disorder and need to see a physician. It's that simple.

You're my new best friend. If I were to believe in that somatotype bullshit, I'd be more ectomorph than anything, and I've had zero trouble putting on muscle @4k calories/day.

[avenger]

You are all wrong...

Functional strength is all about the legs.

[soliloquy]

Originally Posted by Uncreative123

Abs begin to become visible around 15%, not defined until 12%, and not popping until 9%.

this guy is at 19%


source: T NATION | Dave Tate Project - Part 2


as such, it is possible to have visible abs at a much higher body fat percentage by working out your ab muscles a lot. sure, it will increase your waste and it may take away from the V taper look, and in comparison, it may make your chest look smaller, but it is possible to push your abs out

[TRENCHLORD]

Originally Posted by avenger

You are all wrong...

Functional strength is all about the legs.

No, we're all wrong. Functional strength is all about the third leg .

[Uncreative123]

Originally Posted by soliloquy

this guy is at 19%


source: T NATION | Dave Tate Project - Part 2


as such, it is possible to have visible abs at a much higher body fat percentage by working out your ab muscles a lot. sure, it will increase your waste and it may take away from the V taper look, and in comparison, it may make your chest look smaller, but it is possible to push your abs out

Haha, do you even know who dave tate is? I guarantee you 100% dude NEVER does direct ab work. It's all from squats and DLs. And I hate to break it to you, but just because one article says that is 19% doesn't make it so. Also- 19% bf is not "A MUCH HIGHER BODY FAT PERCENTAGE" than 15ish. They didn't even mention how they took the test (as that wasn't even the point of the article) Which means they did the test with calipers which always gives inaccurate results. Just like the bottom picture where it says he's 12% bodyfat- that is not 12% bodyfat. The one thing you'll eventually learn about T-Nation is that they LOVE to hype themselves.
I'd say the first picture looks like 15-16% bf and the lower one is about 14%. But that doesn't make for very good reading does it? Especially when you're trying to push a specific program.

I'm sitting at 13% right now and I'm leaner than he is in that after picture, no question.

If you want LOTS of pictures to help prove this, sneak into the "rate my physique" section and look for the people asking for bf% estimates. Not a Tnation article on Tnation about how great Tnation protocol is.

[soliloquy]

/\ i'm guessing you're not too familiar with body fat % vs water weight %.

also, if someone is lifting professionally, it is rather silly to believe that the only muscle group the person ever works out is the one he/she focuses on. core muscles and back muscles are super important if you're focusing on dead lifts and squats. sure you can counter that with wearing belts, but thats a temporary solution leading to annoying back pain.

only focusing on dead lifts and squats would present a reverse johnny bravo. not really the situation here.

[Uncreative123]

Originally Posted by soliloquy

/\ i'm guessing you're not too familiar with body fat % vs water weight %.

also, if someone is lifting professionally, it is rather silly to believe that the only muscle group the person ever works out is the one he/she focuses on. core muscles and back muscles are super important if you're focusing on dead lifts and squats. sure you can counter that with wearing belts, but thats a temporary solution leading to annoying back pain.

only focusing on dead lifts and squats would present a reverse johnny bravo. not really the situation here.

Your post is totally illogical. Body fat percentage and water weight do not directly affect each other. I think it is you who is very confused about how body fat is calculated. I said go to the forums and look at the pictures of other body fat percentages. I don't understand the rest of your post. Tate does no direct ab work. Squats and dls are really all you/he need for abs. Really surprised this comes as news.

[The Reverend]

I'm not gonna lie, when I read this thread, it just comes off as a bunch of huge muscleheads getting butthurt.

[AngstRiddenDreams]

Reverse Johhny Bravo
And yeah guys, the original topic of this thread has pretty much been debated enough, i don't think we need to argue.

[Wingchunwarrior]

Originally Posted by The Reverend

I'm not gonna lie, when I read this thread, it just comes off as a bunch of huge muscleheads getting butthurt.

Or skinny guys trying to justify why they're weak and skinny

"but i can lift my self up a million times ZOMG!!!!"

[Maniacal]

I wonder what all you guys look like and how much you can really lift. It seems everyone on the Internet is an expert and excels in all aspects of everything in life.

[Wingchunwarrior]

Just to add to my comment and to answer Maniacal's question, I am weak and skinny.

[Maniacal]

Me too!