[Kotex]

What's a good cd to pick up if I wanted to get more into this?

[garcia3441]

Originally Posted by Kotex

What's a good cd to pick up if I wanted to get more into this?

Putumayo offers collections from around the world.

[ZeroSignal]

Originally Posted by garcia3441

Me to also.

(Along with Arabic music.)

Same again!

[josh821]

Originally Posted by sakeido

I am not so sure about that. It is very easy to adapt our music into their systems (from what I have learned so far) but much more difficult to adapt their music to ours, since we do not have fractional steps like they do. If anything, they might be floored by how simplistic and uncomplicated our music theory is

I disagree that our theory is simplistic comparatively, although there's no real objective way to figure that out. I would just consider how extremely difficult it can be for me to explain musical ideas to friends of mine who are not musicians. Even the things that seem very easy to grasp for me can be difficult for them because they don't think about music in that way. Wouldn't it be the same for someone who thinks of music but only in non-western ways?

[sakeido]

I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop.
Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.

[abyssalservant]

Originally Posted by josh821

I always find it very interesting how people's ears develop in different cultures. It's like any sounds that are played frequently enough somehow evolve into something that we consider pleasant (like how 3rds were dissonant at one point as well as 7ths). We're just so used to hearing western scales, chords, and rhythms that when we hear Indian music or something out of the far east it sounds completely exotic. I'm sure to some extent our music sounds just as crazy to them.

*chuckles* Indeed. I listen to harsh noise as relaxing music . . . well, except for that one NTRLWRM EP *shuddertwitch* which is too harsh even for me.
Really, the musical context shifts my definition of dissonance. For example, if one goes along playing nice folky tonal, triadic music and suddenly throws in a harsh b5, I go "Ergh, dissonance, guh!" but if I'm hearing blasts of white noise and high-pitched sine waves, the b5 comes off as sounding like a natural harmony.

One thing you'll note as far as comparing eastern and western musical systems: the core difference is emphasis. Western music emphasizes harmony, and eastern music emphasizes melody. Perhaps an oversimplification, but if you're not worried about proper doubling in multivoice counterpoint and avoiding too much parallel motion, it's easier to worry about quarter-tones and the like.

[josh821]

Originally Posted by sakeido

I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop.
Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.

I have to admit I don't know enough about their music theory to make a good argument here. I would look to western folk music though to make up for the somewhat lack of variety in western sounds. Most of that music has never been written down and it seems that folk music from different countries, even when they're physically close, can very dissimilar. Of course I'm not sure if we're only talking about classical music or music in general.

[yevetz]

nice

[Kotex]

Originally Posted by garcia3441

Putumayo offers collections from around the world.

Thanks dude.

[Durero]

Originally Posted by sakeido

I am not so sure about that. It is very easy to adapt our music into their systems (from what I have learned so far) but much more difficult to adapt their music to ours, since we do not have fractional steps like they do. If anything, they might be floored by how simplistic and uncomplicated our music theory is

Originally Posted by sakeido

I really would argue that our system is more simplistic. I think that the incredible amount of permutations possible in other world music systems is because most of them have not or did not until recently develop a system of writing their music down, while we have been recording our music for centuries now and have been thinking in the same musical alphabet for almost as long as we have been writing down our music. I would think that if by consistently learning music by ear for generations upon generations and having as diverse of religions and beliefs as there is in the East that would just add to the complexities of the music those societies would develop.
Conversely, here in the West we have been mostly consolidated under one or two very powerful religions for a long time (and they have vast influence on the development of music in a society) and have been moving towards complete homogenization for centuries, so we just didn't have the opportunity to develop musically like some other cultures have.

I think you have to be quite a bit more specific about where the simplicity & complexity lie. I think you're absolutely right that in terms of the sheer detail in both melody & rhythm Indian classical music makes Western European classical music sound very simplistic - like comparing a fine engraving to something made with those huge lego duplo blocks.

But the situation is reversed when you compare the elements of harmony and orchestration, which are developed to immense complexity and sophistication in Western music, and hardly at all in Indian music.


It's quite fascinating how different cultures develop their musical depth & complexity, but I don't think notation is much of an explanation of the differences between European and Indian musical cultures. I believe Indian musicians have had notation for longer than Europeans (Indian music is easily notated with their solfege-like system (sa re ga ma pa da ni sa) for melody, and their solkatu drumming language (onomatopoetic syllables for percussion sounds) for rhythms).

Personally I think the heavy emphasis on improvisation in Indian classical music better explains the amazing development of melodic & rhythmic detail and beauty, whereas improvising is not nearly as practical when you're trying to get large groups of people to play together in tightly controlled harmonies like a European orchestra or choir.



Edit: Jeez, I'm such a windbag I forgot to say - awesome post dude I absolutely LOVE Indian classical music.

Originally Posted by abyssalservant

One thing you'll note as far as comparing eastern and western musical systems: the core difference is emphasis. Western music emphasizes harmony, and eastern music emphasizes melody. Perhaps an oversimplification, but if you're not worried about proper doubling in multivoice counterpoint and avoiding too much parallel motion, it's easier to worry about quarter-tones and the like.