[josh821]

I've finally really figured out what modal jazz is supposed to be exactly but there's still one thing that confuses me. Kind of Blue is supposed to be the best example of modal jazz out there yet it has a song like Freddie Freeloader which is almost a straight 12 bar blues complete with dominant chords and that's the part that throws me off. From what I've learned in various places you're not really supposed to use dominant chords in modal jazz because it moves the tonal center of the progression to the key the mode being played in was derived from instead of being in a modal key. How exactly is this song a modal jazz song then when it's [b]only[b] dominant chords? Is it not a modal song at all and just thrown in there for fun or is there a situation where using dominant chords to that extent can be done in a modal song? Personally I'm thinking it must be the former or at least that's what my ears are telling me. Any insights?

[distressed_romeo]

From what you've described, it sounds like a jazz-blues, not a modal tune. What are the changes? I'd look myself, but my real book isn't immediately at hand.

[josh821]

It's 12 bar blues in Bb using all dominant 7th chords. The only thing different is the turnaround.

[distressed_romeo]

OK, so that's a blues, not a modal tune.

[josh821]

Are you familiar with Kind of Blue? It's supposed to be the quintessential modal jazz album and where that song comes from. Maybe you're right and they only had a couple modal songs on there but it just seems odd that the album that practically created modal jazz has a two straight blues songs on it.

[distressed_romeo]

Yeah, I know the album you mean. I think those two tunes were just exceptions, probably just to break the album up a bit.

[Luan]

modal jazz is like pitch axis in a way, right?

Like a tonal center and then you use chords from any scale, like modal interchange

[distressed_romeo]

In my understanding, it's where you improvise with scales over relatively static vamps rather than deriving solos from chord changes via arpeggios. Pitch axis could definitely play a part in it. You could use arpeggio or pentatonic subsititutions over a static chord to imply a specific mode, as you say, for instance, you could get a Dorian sound by playing a minor seven arpeggio a tone higher than the root of a minor seven chord, resolving it back to a chord tone. You can get away with this a lot more of static chords than you usually could over fairly busy changes.

[Luan]

Thanks a lot for the explanation.
I used to know the concept, but for some reason I got confused.
When I solo over BTs like a Dm7 I like to play G7 arpeggio, giving a sort of mixolydian sound

[jacksonplayer]

I thought modal jazz involves playing over a preset mode or series of modes, rather than over a specific progression. In other words, the backing musicians are also improvising along with the soloist, with the only precondition being the mode(s). The backing doesn't have to be a mere vamp, and can often be quite complex. Think of all that crazy shit McCoy Tyner was playing while backing up Coltrane. In effect, modal was the halfway point between be-bop and free jazz.

As much as I love "Kind of Blue," to hear modal jazz at its purest you're better off checking out the '60s Miles Davis Quintet on albums like "Miles Smiles" and "ESP" than the late '50s quintet that produced "Kind of Blue." The music the '60s quintet produced is a lot more abstract and difficult, precisely because the performances are more modal and less fixed. Also, you have to check out John Coltrane's albums for Impulse up through "First Meditations (for Quartet)" to hear great modal jazz. After that, basically beginning with "Ascension," Coltrane went more into pure free jazz.

Personally, I prefer soloing over modes rather than changes. It allows me to take the music where I want it, rather than following someone else's roadmap.