[Luan]

Well, I learned the song Loro by Gismonti, and I'm trying to improvise over the chords of it.
It is hard as hell to understand the chord progression.
Here are the chords:http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ction/Loro.jpg
I know that there are some secondary dominants.
What do I play over A-(b5) (9)?
D13 (b9) is V7/III right? but it has a natural 13, so I will have to play mixolydian b9 13, right?
The same thing over G 13 (b9)?
What do I play over C sus4 (b9)?
What do I play over A-(b5)(9)?
Eb/Db means that it is a Eb7, but it sounds better if it is Ebmaj to me. That is weird..

Really thanks a lot for those that can help me!

[distressed_romeo]

Originally Posted by Luan

Well, I learned the song Loro by Gismonti, and I'm trying to improvise over the chords of it.
It is hard as hell to understand the chord progression.
Here are the chords:http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ction/Loro.jpg
I know that there are some secondary dominants.
What do I play over A-(b5) (9)?
D13 (b9) is V7/III right? but it has a natural 13, so I will have to play mixolydian b9 13, right?
The same thing over G 13 (b9)?
What do I play over C sus4 (b9)?
What do I play over A-(b5)(9)?
Eb/Db means that it is a Eb7, but it sounds better if it is Ebmaj to me. That is weird..

Really thanks a lot for those that can help me!

For the A-7b5(9) try the whole-half diminished scale.
For all the 13b9 chords try the half-whole diminished scale, or a minor pentatonic a minor third up. Actually, for the Am7b5(9)-D13b9 change you could use the same diminished scale over both chords (A whole-half diminished and D half-whole diminished are composed of the same notes).
Over the Sus4b9, try a phrygian or phrygian natural 6 mode.

Also, try just playing appropriate arpeggios, and decorating them with some passing notes. This can be fiddly to visualise, but is a great way of pinning down the changes.

For the rest of it, the general rule of thumb with secondary dominant chords is that over non-resolving dominants (i.e. ones that don't lead to a perfect cadence) you use the appropriate Lydian Dominant scale. For ones that do resolve, use the Altered Dominant.

This is a challenging progression, and there are lots of ways you could play through it. I actually might give it a go myself, as it looks like fun! Let me know if you need any more suggestions.

[Mikey D]

Originally Posted by Luan

Eb/Db means that it is a Eb7, but it sounds better if it is Ebmaj to me. That is weird..

Really thanks a lot for those that can help me!

I won't go over the rest as Distressed has that covered.

Just want to say Eb/Db is notalways the same as Eb7. Sometimes it is just a plain inversion, but it may be a slash chord and in jazz it usually is. People like Metheny, John Taylor and other model compositions use this alot.

You need to look at how the chord is built from the root up. So from Db the notes you have are Eb-G-Bb, plus the others in the scale whatever they are. so thats the natural 9th, sharp 4/11th and natural 6th. Try playing Db lydian over it and see what it sounds like.

[distressed_romeo]

This is something that occurs a lot in progressive rock as well. Guys like Steve Howe and Alex Lifeson will often move different triads around on top of an unchanging root note (usually an open string) to imply a particular mode.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by Mikey D

Just want to say Eb/Db is notalways the same as Eb7. Sometimes it is just a plain inversion, but it may be a slash chord and in jazz it usually is. People like Metheny, John Taylor and other model

I would argue that they're one and the same - the composer may not be thinking of it as a Eb7, but no matter how you dice it, an Eb triad played over a Db is an Eb7 inverted over it's 7th, even if the composer's intent was to walk a bassline down along the scale the harmony is rooted in or something, and wasn't thinking of it as a chord in it's own right.

It's two different ways of thinking about the same group of tones, but it adds up to the same chord.

[jacksonplayer]

Check out the big brain on Distressed Romeo!

Seriously, I'm such a dunce when it comes to this stuff, even though I love fiddling around with jazz. I've never messed around with altered scales that much, and whenever I confront weirdo chords, I either go "out", pentatonic, or do the arpeggio + passing tones thingy. My favored approach is just to find a non-altered mode that fits, but then I generally prefer the simplest possible approach to these things.

[distressed_romeo]

Originally Posted by jacksonplayer

Check out the big brain on Distressed Romeo!

Seriously, I'm such a dunce when it comes to this stuff, even though I love fiddling around with jazz. I've never messed around with altered scales that much, and whenever I confront weirdo chords, I either go "out", pentatonic, or do the arpeggio + passing tones thingy. My favored approach is just to find a non-altered mode that fits, but then I generally prefer the simplest possible approach to these things.

Thank ya kindly!

Actually, you hit it on the head; the secret behind playing through changes (in my experience...I still consider myself a learner!) is to find the simplest possible way of visualising the music. Even if something looks complex, chances are there's a way of making it more manageable. All great improvisors do this; Pat Martino, for example, as a method where he visualises everything as being based on minor scales strung together with chromatics (I won't try and explain it here, as it's a big topic...check out his website!).

[jacksonplayer]

Originally Posted by distressed_romeo

Pat Martino, for example, as a method where he visualises everything as being based on minor scales strung together with chromatics (I won't try and explain it here, as it's a big topic...check out his website!).

Conceptually, that's not too far from how I look at things, though I'm sure that Martino's way is much more sophisticated. I'm just lazy.

One reason I like to go pentatonic, or nearly so, over complicated changes is that it often seems to work better from a musical standpoint. The simpler the background, the more 'seasoning' the soloist needs to insert. Some of my favorite Shawn Lane solos were done over single-note Jonas Hellborg bass lines. But with a very complicated background, a simpler top line often seems like the right choice, since it allows the whole thing to breathe. However, I sometimes deliberately choose a pentatonic that is completely "wrong", which leads to some pretty cool serendipity. Or I just unleash a flood of shifting pentatonics, hoping that things don't get too messed up. That's pretty close to playing "out", I guess.

[distressed_romeo]

You're right. Look at a lot of Coltrane's solos. Over things like 'Giant Steps' where the chords are flying by at an insane rate, he'd often use pentatonic 'tetrachords' (little four-note cells from the pentatonic scale) to naviagate his way through them

[distressed_romeo]

TheShredZone.com - Installment #13: Getting Free Using Passing Tones -- Welcome To The Next Generation

Here's an article on the 'wrong note pentatonic' idea. It's possibly an overcomplicated way of looking at a fairly straightforward concept, but it'll make you think a bit...