Downloading, the Music Industry & the Furure

[McKay]

It's a hot potato. Catch.

[leftyguitarjoe]

Downloading is gonna happen. There is nothing anyone can do to stop it, so I embrace it. I make torrents of all my own music and give it away. Its free exposure.

[Scar Symmetry]

Downloading, believe it or not, is actually helping the music industry.

If you would like to argue, don't because you are wrong.

[I_infect]

Honestly with how much money musicians actually make from CDs, the industry has been dying a slow death for awhile. Downloading, legal or not, is just another tumor of its cancer. Merch, iTunes and ring tones are keeping musicians fed until they tour.

Back when vinyl records first came out, they were only a tool to promote live shows, but evolved into a primary venue for music. No one expected to make much money from them just to gain exposure, and i think it has come full circle.

Personally I like CDs, I think they are much better quality than mp3s. But at near $20 a pop, and you still need to have licensing and crap to get em on your ipod, iTunes makes alot of sense to most people. It's bittersweet, but I'm glad to see the larger labels go... they've been extorting, censoring, and controlling the music scene for far too long.

[Scar Symmetry]

Bands make .... all from CD sales anyway. Merch is where bands make their money.

[Aysakh]

Arrrrr matey

[AK DRAGON]

Bands make very little from record sales as it goes to their record company. Most of their bread and butter is merchandise and selling out shows

[ihave27frets]

I disagree.

We just live in a time when people think its fine to steal as long as they don't feel the repercussions, instead they feel justified. Walk into a Mcdonalds, ask to eat everything on the menu so you can see if you like how it tastes.. and if you like it you'll buy it. Good luck with that.

[Aysakh]

Originally Posted by ihave27frets

I disagree.

We just live in a time when people think its fine to steal as long as they don't feel the repercussions, instead they feel justified. Walk into a Mcdonalds, ask to eat everything on the menu so you can see if you like how it tastes.. and if you like it you'll buy it. Good luck with that.

Think about places like Sam's club, with all the free samples and whatnot. If I get a sample of something I like, then I go and buy some. If it's shit, then I stay far away. If I never had the ability to sample whatever I bought, I probably would have never given it a second glance. Even if bands did make most of their money off of albums, the sheer amount of exposure from a few pirates easily outweighs the loss of a few album sales.

[I_infect]

Originally Posted by ihave27frets

I disagree.

We just live in a time when people think its fine to steal as long as they don't feel the repercussions, instead they feel justified. Walk into a Mcdonalds, ask to eat everything on the menu so you can see if you like how it tastes.. and if you like it you'll buy it. Good luck with that.

Not all downloading is illegal. Many people have an iTunes account, or a Zune account, myself included. But on the flipside, I agree that downloading is illegal, in the letter of the law form. In the spirit of the law, even with legal sites as mentioned above, you're getting an mp3... or whatever Apple calls their format... which is NOT the same quality as CD quality. You lose alot of nuances that you may not be able to hear on a set of earbuds, but burn an mp3 disc and play it on a decent stereo on you'll see what I mean if you compare. For me, an mp3 is the digital audio equivalent of taping songs from the radio in the 80s. Sure, its the song, but you get the dj talking over it at the end... or a trojan in the torrent

A good read:

http://www.stereophile.com/features/308mp3cd/

[Thin_Ice_77]

I make a point of buying all my music, but that's because I like having the CD, album art, lyrics etc. I think it's just a cool little package, it's not just some words on a screen if that makes sense.

Personally, I wouldn't give a shit if anyone downloaded my bands music. The reason we make it is so we can share it with as many people as possible, if they like it enough to download it, I'm flattered.

[ihave27frets]

Originally Posted by Aysakh

Think about places like Sam's club, with all the free samples and whatnot. If I get a sample of something I like, then I go and buy some. If it's shit, then I stay far away. If I never had the ability to sample whatever I bought, I probably would have never given it a second glance. Even if bands did make most of their money off of albums, the sheer amount of exposure from a few pirates easily outweighs the loss of a few album sales.

That would be fine if they downloaded samples, not whole songs, whole albums, whole discographies. Go to sams club and walk out with a whole turkey or whole case of cookies... see what happens then. Thats a better example of the majority, And at this point I guarantee you MOST bands would prefer sales over exposure... as the pirates out number the sales these days.

[MaxOfMetal]

The facts are this:
1) Unless an international body with authority to police the whole internet comes into existence the pirating of music simply can't be stopped.
2) There are pro and cons to the issue of downloading both legally and illegally.
3) The record labels will still thrive, just in a different form.

I can see how people with bands who are just getting started and are not very popular yet being able to benefit from free downloading of music. Though a well established act can gain nearly nothing.

As for the whole "try before you buy" argument. Many bands have huge parts of their discographies on free sites such as MySpace. It might not be whole albums, but it should be enough to let you know if you like them enough to buy the CD or not.

[ihave27frets]

Originally Posted by MaxOfMetal

As for the whole "try before you buy" argument. Many bands have huge parts of their discographies on free sites such as MySpace. It might not be whole albums, but it should be enough to let you know if you like them enough to buy the CD or not.

Exactly.

[poopyalligator]

Originally Posted by ihave27frets

That would be fine if they downloaded samples, not whole songs, whole albums, whole discographies. Go to sams club and walk out with a whole turkey or whole case of cookies... see what happens then. Thats a better example of the majority, And at this point I guarantee you MOST bands would prefer sales over exposure... as the pirates out number the sales these days.

I have legally purchased all of your albums if it makes you feel any better

[JohnIce]

Originally Posted by ihave27frets

I disagree.

We just live in a time when people think its fine to steal as long as they don't feel the repercussions, instead they feel justified. Walk into a Mcdonalds, ask to eat everything on the menu so you can see if you like how it tastes.. and if you like it you'll buy it. Good luck with that.

As good of a point that is, trying to stop downloading is like trying to stop CD's from taking over vinyl, or VHS from taking over the Cinemas etc. People will always look for the most efficient and comfortable format, and in this day and age, that is the mp3. The CD is now outdated and we'll have to embrace that and see how we can work around it instead.

I have a couple of hundred CD's that I never use, because I've got all of them and then some in my iPod which goes with me everywhere. If I'm at home, I can plug it into my stereo. This is how the common music listener wants it, and if they can get it, they will.

With today's recording technology (which is small, cheap, and good), there's much less need for record companies. Production companies, concert arrangers etc will still be in demand, but record companies are losing their ground. My band was approached by Universal to sign a contract with them, turns out we'd get .... all from them, we'd have to finish the record on our own with our own money, and then they'd sell it without giving us a cent. The only thing they'd give us would be some contacts with production companies, promotion companies etc, which we might aswell go to ourselves.

In short, winds are turning in the record industry and the battle is already lost, so now we need to learn how to turn it into our advantage. Not try to stifle the progress with force.

[Scar Symmetry]

I would argue there's a lot of bands out there just regurgitating what's been done before and effectively are asking people to part with their money for something they already have.

Originally Posted by JohnIce

As good of a point that is, trying to stop downloading is like trying to stop CD's from taking over vinyl, or VHS from taking over the Cinemas etc. People will always look for the most efficient and comfortable format, and in this day and age, that is the mp3. The CD is now outdated and we'll have to embrace that and see how we can work around it instead.

I have a couple of hundred CD's that I never use, because I've got all of them and then some in my iPod which goes with me everywhere. If I'm at home, I can plug it into my stereo. This is how the common music listener wants it, and if they can get it, they will.

With today's recording technology (which is small, cheap, and good), there's much less need for record companies. Production companies, concert arrangers etc will still be in demand, but record companies are losing their ground. My band was approached by Universal to sign a contract with them, turns out we'd get .... all from them, we'd have to finish the record on our own with our own money, and then they'd sell it without giving us a cent. The only thing they'd give us would be some contacts with production companies, promotion companies etc, which we might aswell go to ourselves.

In short, winds are turning in the record industry and the battle is already lost, so now we need to learn how to turn it into our advantage. Not try to stifle the progress with force.

this x 100. JohnIce has fresh rep.

[7deadlysins666]

What is happening is the music industry is changing. Record labels are dying, and the ones that survive won't really be record labels anymore. The labels tried so hard not to conform to the internet age and it hurt them. Rather than embracing it early on and they could have come up with many great ideas to sell music online then, they shunned it for far longer than they should. In the long run, it was the Labels that hurt themselves! Because now you've got people torrenting music, im sure there are still a few file sharing programs out there if you really look. Anyway, Record Labels now days really are not "record" labels. ANY band can record a studio quality song on their computer and then distribute it worldwide over the internet. You can get pressing from Disc Makers etc. for a fairly good price also. So what are Record Labels Really needed for? Publicity, Advertising, and Promotion. And hell, any decent management can do that but the keyword is "Decent". I have yet to find any management that Really did what they should do. But back on track, no band really needs a label anymore, they just need someone/something to push their name out there, to foot the bill on the magazine ads, and the commercials, and billions of flyers and posters, etc. which Can get quite expensive.

[Scar Symmetry]

It all comes down to what we're all on now: the internet.

It's changing the way things happen for everyone. For example, in the future TV will be distributed via the internet, I wouldn't be surprised if in 5/10 years time there was a YouTube channel on TV.

The internet is already the biggest thing to happen in our lifetimes and it will continue to keep being so through the things it is used for.

In the future, the internet will be more heavily moderated and businesses that haven't will finally tap into the fountain of opportunities that are on the internet. This is very exciting. What isn't exciting is that Governments will most likely seize control of the internet, and will not only be able to control who has access to it but also what you are and aren't allowed to say on the internet. This is not so exciting.

Either way, a lot of people in the world haven't wised up to what's happening on the internet, and they need to soon or they will be left far behind in years to come.

[ugg im kyle]

I love going out and buying the actual records.
Record sales still mean something to the labels, even though they know where the music world is at right now. Friends of mine just got dropped from their label because of poor sales on their latest record. I'm not going to drop the bands name, but the label is Victory. Big surprised from anyone that has heard all the negative things to spill out about Victory Records.
We can't predict the future, I just hope that someone will always have the love to start labels and pump money into bands.

[Triple-J]

The main problem I have with downloading is that in the future I think it will lead to more and more labels being less willing to take chances on who they sign so they will sign bands that they can get an immediate return on which will mean more boybands and acts that are part of a trend and less of the type of bands that we talk about on here.

On the flipside of this I do think that out of this chaos the record industry is going through a label will emerge that shows others the way revolutionizes the industry and becomes an example for others to follow, in the past labels such as Factory, Dishchord, Stiff, FatWreckchords Island and Epitaph were created out of a reaction against the greed of the majors and I have no doubt that a similar change within the industry will happen again.

[liquidcow]

One thing I am totally sick of is people saying things like "yeh well you should be in it for the music and not the money, I give my music away for free and I'm just happy that people are listening to it". Fine for you if you do, but people should be able to make the choice whether to give their music away for free or sell it at a price, and that choice should not be made for them. It's so easy for people sitting at home in their bedrooms to tell musicians how they should be doing things, or how they should feel about their work, when they're not the ones affected. And it's easy to make vast sweeping statements like 'yeh well bands make their actual money through merchandise anyway'. Apart from the fact that that's not necessarily true, it's more complex than that. The financial viability of a tour, for example, is likely to be estimated on how many albums a band has sold. Furthermore, it may not be the band seeing the money from album sales, but the record company does need to see a return on what they spend, and they're the ones hopefully funding a tour. I'm not saying that record companies are all fantastic, they may well be becoming redundant, and the industry is of course going through a massive shake-up, but it's so much more complex than people seem to want to make out.

[defchime]

Theres a difference between selling your music, and selling out on your music...if you write a song so people will buy it youve sucessfully sold out....if you make your music and dont care who wants it or buys it then your still good in my book.

I recently started a death metal cd collection because I saw how much death metal bands struggle in the music industry. I dont care if the bands dont make alot of money from the cds I buy, because at least then im supporting the lables like unique leader, willowtip, brutal bands, etc. I see all these amaizing bands getting hardly any exposure and its just a damn shame, although I dont want to see the emo kid next to me wearing a Decrepit Birth shirt.

my 2cents


EDIT- also, why would you rather have a digital copy of an album than a hard copy (cd)? you pay like what 5-10$ an album...id rather pay the extra $5 and get the album on cd. Whats going to happen when your computer gets a virus and you have to re-format without the chance to back up? your just lost all that precious music that you could have just bought on cd for the extra money.........my cds average around $10 -$15 tho.

[ihave27frets]

Originally Posted by defchime

Theres a difference between selling your music, and selling out on your music...if you write a song so people will buy it youve sucessfully sold out....if you make your music and dont care who wants it or buys it then your still good in my book.

I recently started a death metal cd collection because I saw how much death metal bands struggle in the music industry. I dont care if the bands dont make alot of money from the cds I buy, because at least then im supporting the lables like unique leader, willowtip, brutal bands, etc. I see all these amaizing bands getting hardly any exposure and its just a damn shame, although I dont want to see the emo kid next to me wearing a Decrepit Birth shirt.

my 2cents


EDIT- also, why would you rather have a digital copy of an album than a hard copy (cd)? you pay like what 5-10$ an album...id rather pay the extra $5 and get the album on cd. Whats going to happen when your computer gets a virus and you have to re-format without the chance to back up? your just lost all that precious music that you could have just bought on cd for the extra money.........my cds average around $10 -$15 tho.

So, In your eyes, any professional musician, someone who only works and makes money from their music is a sell out?

Interesting.

Originally Posted by Scar Symmetry

I would argue there's a lot of bands out there just regurgitating what's been done before and effectively are asking people to part with their money for something they already have.

No one is forcing you to buy it at all, you can hear samples all over the internet of every band, legally, for free.. it's your mistake for not checkin a band out before you buy. To think back to a time when you couldn't check out a band... all you could do was buy it and see what it was like...

Originally Posted by JohnIce

As good of a point that is, trying to stop downloading is like trying to stop CD's from taking over vinyl, or VHS from taking over the Cinemas etc. People will always look for the most efficient and comfortable format, and in this day and age, that is the mp3. The CD is now outdated and we'll have to embrace that and see how we can work around it instead.

I have a couple of hundred CD's that I never use, because I've got all of them and then some in my iPod which goes with me everywhere. If I'm at home, I can plug it into my stereo. This is how the common music listener wants it, and if they can get it, they will.

With today's recording technology (which is small, cheap, and good), there's much less need for record companies. Production companies, concert arrangers etc will still be in demand, but record companies are losing their ground. My band was approached by Universal to sign a contract with them, turns out we'd get .... all from them, we'd have to finish the record on our own with our own money, and then they'd sell it without giving us a cent. The only thing they'd give us would be some contacts with production companies, promotion companies etc, which we might aswell go to ourselves.

In short, winds are turning in the record industry and the battle is already lost, so now we need to learn how to turn it into our advantage. Not try to stifle the progress with force.

I disagree, Its not making record companies a thing of the past, its only tightening their grip on their artists. The actual "recording" end of the record industry is VERY small compared to everything else labels handle and still control.

Its all about money, thats a record deal is, is one big loan.. with crazy interest. And without that money thousands of bands you listen too wouldn't exist, period. You would not see them on tour, in magazines, in videos.. let alone be able to find their CDs in stores world wide.


Another thing people are choosing not to address is that "record sales" or "sound scans" ..as in actual units sold still determine tons in this industry... and if you love a band and wonder why they don't come to your town on tour, its all about sound scans. And it also determines if bands get offered decent tours at all, without record sale numbers, promoters and booking agents turn bands away as it clearly seems they don't have an "actual" fan base.. one that will pay money to see them... all the friends and plays on myspace does so much and these days dosent do much because it can all be faked.

[Scar Symmetry]

Originally Posted by ihave27frets

No one is forcing you to buy it at all, you can hear samples all over the internet of every band, legally, for free.. it's your mistake for not checkin a band out before you buy. To think back to a time when you couldn't check out a band... all you could do was buy it and see what it was like...

Yeah, samples. Not the real thing though. Being in a band myself with a CD available worldwide, I can totally sympathise with why you feel the way you do. However, I think both record labels and bands have to stop complaining about illegal music distribution and wise up about ways that they can make money.

At the moment, illegal downloading looks unstoppable and it very well may be, but that's not to say that in the future bands won't see more money from record sales than they are seeing now.