[jacksonplayer]

Originally Posted by Oogadee Boogadee

Hey Jacksonplayer - you wouldn't happen to be related to Conor Oberst, would you?

Given that Conor's fanbase seems to consist primarily of hot young ladies, I'd probably be claiming some sort of family relation if I were 20 years younger and unmarried. A cute little store clerk in Texas asked me that question last year, and after I told her I wasn't related to Conor, she said "He's *dreamy*!"

I guess I could technically say that we're related, since there are Oberst geneological records that indicate that we'd be 7th or 8th cousins or something like that, but I don't consider that to be "related"--and apart from the hot young lady factor, why would I want to claim relation to such a warbling no-talent?

[noodles]

Originally Posted by Korbain

saying cobain being one of the worst sings in rock, is a very wrong statement. His voice is so unique. You tell me one singer that could have so much anger in the singing, make you feel it but not really show in how he sings. Cobain had a gift at writing awsome lyrics, making them work this the music, which was usually just fuzz and lots of overdrive, yet made it work and was also very catchy. Cobain was a self taught singer, i ain't just saying this because i like cobains music, but he wasn't a shit singer by any means. If he was that bad, would his music still be going strong now?

Oh man, not this stupid Cobain arguement again.

What if Nirvanna had never made it pasy local band status? If you had caught Nirvanna for $10 at some local club with four other bands, you would have thought they were the worst band in the world. "Who the hell is this off-key, atonal hack of a singer with the stupid, rambling lyrics?" People keep deifying this guy because he sold a lot of records and then gave head to a 12-gauge.

"Achey Breaky Heart" was the number one record in the country in 1992. It kept Megadeth's "Countdown to Extinction" out of the top slot. It was huge crossover hit that pounded the air waves. Shania Twain, Garth Brooks and Faith Hill soon followed, but Billy Ray Cyrus paved that path, just like Cobain paved the path for grunge.

You just never know what is going to take off. Don't mistake success for talent. Kirk was just another rambling junkie with a guitar and a few chords. If you want to think he is a unique talent, then you better be ready to recognize the unique talent of Billy Ray.

[Drew]

Haha, I can't resist.

1.) National Socialism. Technically, Socialism is an enconomic policy and not a social one, as the name might suggest. The "racial" elements on Naziism have less to do with this, then, than they do with the national component. My AP Euro teacher in high school used to joke that National Socialism was neither national nor socialist, and there's a grain of truth to that - "national" is certianly somewhat of a stretch when you define the nation by race and physical appearance, and not common shared cultural experience, geographic boundaries, and sense of solidarity as a people that transcends race, and while the Third Reich was a pretty powerful political institution, still most of the means of production were in the hands of private citizens. Essentially, what we saw was a totalitarian regime with a pretty label, not a national socialist government.

2.) Cobain. Really, it depends what you like in a vocalist, of course, but I think a lot of the criticism leveled at Cobain is unwarranted. He didn't have a very "clean" voice, per se, but for that raw, raspy sound, I thought he was excellent. I never really considered his vocals "out of tune" either - sure, maybe the occasional drunken live show, and he undeniably did a bit of sliding into notes here and there, but keep in mind this is a guy who considered Leadbelly his favorite performer and had a pretty in-depth knowledge of the blues; it's not like he wasn't familiar with a tradition where this was accepted, even encouraged. And while his melodic range wasn't jaw-dropping, his dynamic one was. I consider his vocal on "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" off Unplugged in New York one of the greatest rock vocal performances I've ever heard, ranging from a disarmingly innocent near-whisper to a tortured wail over the course of the tune. Would I have thought the same about that vocal had they just been some bar band? Hell, I was in my big anti-mainstream thing when I first heard that performance - I didn't even LIKE Nirvana very much until I heard that Leadbelly cover, and then suddenly I began to "get" them.

Could the guy play guitar? Eh, well enough to belt out some power chords, but that's about it. Could he sing, though? Sure, not as a metal guy would, but if you treat Nirvana as coming out of the blues tradition and not the hard rock and punk one, suddenly his vocal style makes a LOT more sense.





And noodles, if you mention that godawful annoying Cyrus tune around here again, I just may ban you on principle. man, I hadn't even THOUGHT about that song in probably five years, and I bet it'll be stuck in my head all day. Thanks, dick.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Drew

Could the guy play guitar? Eh, well enough to belt out some power chords, but that's about it. Could he sing, though? Sure, not as a metal guy would, but if you treat Nirvana as coming out of the blues tradition and not the hard rock and punk one, suddenly his vocal style makes a LOT more sense.

Even though I have always thought Chris Cornell and Eddie Vedder were better singers as far as grunge goes, I have always respected Cobain's work and Nirvana.

Another singer that I like that everyone here probably would disagree with me is Billy Corgan. Smashing Pumpkins' Siamese Dream has to be one of my favorite albums of all time.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Another singer that I like that everyone here probably would disagree with me is Billy Corgan. Smashing Pumpkins' Siamese Dream has to be one of my favorite albums of all time.

I agree with you there. Siamese Dream is a great album and I've always liked Smashing Pumpkins.

Originally Posted by Drew

2.) Cobain. Really, it depends what you like in a vocalist, of course, but I think a lot of the criticism leveled at Cobain is unwarranted. He didn't have a very "clean" voice, per se, but for that raw, raspy sound, I thought he was excellent. I never really considered his vocals "out of tune" either - sure, maybe the occasional drunken live show, and he undeniably did a bit of sliding into notes here and there, but keep in mind this is a guy who considered Leadbelly his favorite performer and had a pretty in-depth knowledge of the blues; it's not like he wasn't familiar with a tradition where this was accepted, even encouraged. And while his melodic range wasn't jaw-dropping, his dynamic one was. I consider his vocal on "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" off Unplugged in New York one of the greatest rock vocal performances I've ever heard, ranging from a disarmingly innocent near-whisper to a tortured wail over the course of the tune. Would I have thought the same about that vocal had they just been some bar band? Hell, I was in my big anti-mainstream thing when I first heard that performance - I didn't even LIKE Nirvana very much until I heard that Leadbelly cover, and then suddenly I began to "get" them.

Could the guy play guitar? Eh, well enough to belt out some power chords, but that's about it. Could he sing, though? Sure, not as a metal guy would, but if you treat Nirvana as coming out of the blues tradition and not the hard rock and punk one, suddenly his vocal style makes a LOT more sense.

I wasn't saying Cobain sucked as a singer or a guitarist. I own all of Nirvana's albums and I can say that I'm a Nirvana fan. But, if I were talking about "best vocalists" or "best guitarists", Kirk Cobain would not be anywhere there.

And, as for Korbain, I can think of at least 20 singers who I think can get across "anger" better than Cobain. Not that Cobain couldn't do it well, but he definitely isn't the best. Korbain had no reasons behind what he said other than he likes Kirk Cobain and doesn't like Dexter Holland. I vastly prefer Nirvana to Offspring, but I think Dexter Holland is a much more skilled "singer" than Cobain.

[Drew]

Eh, again, that's pretty subjective. I love the guy's vocal tone - sure, there are more technically accomplished singers out there, but Cobain is one of my favorite rock vocalists largely because of his tone.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by Drew

Eh, again, that's pretty subjective. I love the guy's vocal tone - sure, there are more technically accomplished singers out there, but Cobain is one of my favorite rock vocalists largely because of his tone.

Yes, because "best" and "worst" are all opinionated. Some of the singers people on here said are the "best", I might think are among the "worst." And some of the singers people on here said are the "worst", I might think are among the "best."

Personally Kirk Cobain used to be my favorite singer (and is still one of my top 30 favorite singers), but it's not because he's skilled at singing. I just like the way he sloppily sings like he doesn't care about anything. In Utero is my favorite Nirvana album and my 2 favorite tracks on there are Milk It and Scentless Apprentice. Those are some of the rawest Nirvana tracks and I just love the rawness. But I wouldn't say "Wow. Listen to those vocals on Milk It. He's such a skilled singer." I would, instead, say, "Listen to Milk It. This song rocks so hard."

[noodles]

Originally Posted by Drew

keep in mind this is a guy who considered Leadbelly his favorite performer and had a pretty in-depth knowledge of the blues; it's not like he wasn't familiar with a tradition where this was accepted, even encouraged.

I hear this arguement a lot when people try to defend a rock musician without much technical ability. Blues have become the excuse for so many white kids, because absolutely NONE of the music by said kids can even hold a candle to the blues. When I want to listen to raw emotion and incredible dynamic, without regards to technical fascility, then I just skip the pretenders and go straight to the source. I would never listen to Nirvanna covering Leadbelly when I can just go listen to Leadbelly.

Then again, I'm pretty opinionated. I think Cream's "Crossroads" is utter garabge that pissed all over the raw power an emotion that was the original Robert Johnson recording. Clapton's solos suck so hard on that song.

[Drew]

Originally Posted by noodles

I hear this arguement a lot when people try to defend a rock musician without much technical ability. Blues have become the excuse for so many white kids, because absolutely NONE of the music by said kids can even hold a candle to the blues. When I want to listen to raw emotion and incredible dynamic, without regards to technical fascility, then I just skip the pretenders and go straight to the source. I would never listen to Nirvanna covering Leadbelly when I can just go listen to Leadbelly.

Then again, I'm pretty opinionated. I think Cream's "Crossroads" is utter garabge that pissed all over the raw power an emotion that was the original Robert Johnson recording. Clapton's solos suck so hard on that song.

Do I strike you as the sort who'd use blues as an excuse? You have a pretty good idea where my taste in blues lies, what I like, and what I don't, and that I think it takes a lot more than sloppy pentatonics to play blues.

Kinda with you on Crossroads - if you take it as a rock tune and not a blues tune it's ok, but as a blues song, well, idunno. Clapton himself has stated that he doesn't get why it's so popular, as he completely turned the beat around on the solo and spent the rest of the solo trying to get back on the downbeat, thinking, "man, I'm butchering this" the entire time. You can kinda hear it, too... It's not a BAD solo, and back in the day I picked up a few licks from it (I learned a lot from the way he moved back and forth from major to minor against the underlying chords when I was first getting into blues soloing, before i dug back to some of the original guys), but I've heard better...

I guess that's the one thing you have to say for Clapton. He may bore me to tears these days, but at least his taste in the blues is still pretty good, even when it comes to critiquing his own playing.

[zimbloth]

Chris Cornell i think is one of the best and worst singers of all time. His singing in Soundgarden was so good. I love the song "4th of July". But, his solo album and his work with (vomit rising...) Audioslave, is just so bad. Just awful. He went from being a 1st class singer, to someone in the realm of Zakk Wylde-like futility.