Harmonic Node Argument?

Trespass · 03-23-2008, 11:28 PM

Quote:

When does the 22's pickup sit under the second harmonic node? When the string is not fretted. The fact of the matter is that the second harmonic node is at least as likely to be over the pickup with a 24 fret neck because the node moves closer to the bridge when strings are fretted.

It's all moot anyway 'cause unless you're playing natural harmonics on open strings, the effect of the second harmonic node is minimal, anyway.

Where neck pickup placement really affects tone is when both pickups are engaged. That's the case where phase actually matters. If you've ever played a guitar with two pickups out of phase, you know what I'm talking about. I own both and IMHO, the tonal differences between 22 and 24 fret PRS guitars are more affected by neck geometry, pickups and bridge (stoptail vs. trem) than neck pickup placement.

That makes perfect sense to me. I've always been anal about 22 fret guitars and neck pup, but this has made me reconsider what I'm doing. Thoughts concerns?

shadowgenesis · 03-23-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trespass

That makes perfect sense to me. I've always been anal about 22 fret guitars and neck pup, but this has made me reconsider what I'm doing. Thoughts concerns?

i always had that argument worked out in my head. Personally i just never like 24 fret guitars cuz they're usually catered to technical players and don't have an aesthetic i like. But soundwise i never thought there was a difference at all.

Metal Ken · 03-23-2008, 11:32 PM

I always thought if there was a difference, it was cause the neck pickup is moved further up where the strings vibrate even more.

olejason · 03-23-2008, 11:36 PM

That's really getting into splitting hairs though. That kind of things goes out the window the second you apply any kind of gain to your tone anyway imo. Not to mention the guitar is sitting in a MIX of other instruments. I will laugh in the face of anyone that thinks they can hear a legitimate discernible difference between the tones of a 24 fret guitar vs. a 22 fret guitar in the context of a mix... it's ridiculous.

Trespass · 03-23-2008, 11:39 PM

Part of the problem, I feel, is that there is no easily comparison.

Ibanez, for example, doesn't make a 22fret RG model and a 24 fret RG model that have the same specs.

ghoti · 03-23-2008, 11:40 PM

To quote Frank Zappa: tone is in your head.

Seriously. Eddie Van Halen took less than $200 of parts and made a guitar sound that basically influenced every 80's hair band (hmmm, not sure that's really a good thing :P)

In my opinion, a lot of people seriously overthink stuff like this, instead of just playing what feels and sounds the best to them and letting everything else take care of itself. Moving the pickup back some will change the sound...a LITTLE...how much is basically a matter of opinion.

Metal Ken · 03-23-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olejason

That's really getting into splitting hairs though. That kind of things goes out the window the second you apply any kind of gain to your tone anyway imo. Not to mention the guitar is sitting in a MIX of other instruments. I will laugh in the face of anyone that thinks they can hear a legitimate discernible difference between the tones of a 24 fret guitar vs. a 22 fret guitar in the context of a mix... it's ridiculous.

Yeah. I'd rather have two more frets anyway.

olejason · 03-23-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Ken

Yeah. I'd rather have two more frets anyway.

Same here. Especially for the metalz.

Durero · 03-24-2008, 12:14 AM

The folk who make the so called "harmonic node argument" don't seem to have any understanding of what a harmonic node actually is - a harmonic node is a point where there is little or no string movement. Imagining that placing a pickup under a harmonic node is a good thing is quite silly.

However stating a preference for the neck pickup placement on 22-fret guitars vs. 24-fret guitars is not silly at all - the 22-fret placement will definitely yield a more bass-heavy and slightly higher output, all else being equal. A preference for 24-fret pickup placement is also very reasonable - it's simply tone difference due to pickup placement along the strings, and nothing to do with harmonics.

Durero · 03-24-2008, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trespass

Part of the problem, I feel, is that there is no easily comparison.

Ibanez, for example, doesn't make a 22fret RG model and a 24 fret RG model that have the same specs.

The Ibanez 22 and new 24 fret S series models may make such a comparison easier now.

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03-23-2008, 11:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Metal Ken Sanctity In Blasphemous Ruin • Super Moderator • Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 22,505 Real Name: Legion Main Seven: Loomis, C7HR, Giannini 7 Rig: Mesa Rectoverb 50 Thanked: 83	I always thought if there was a difference, it was cause the neck pickup is moved further up where the strings vibrate even more. Glory and praise to Thee, Satan, on high, Where Thou didst reign, in Hell where Thou dost lie, Vanquished, silent, dreaming eternally. Grant that my soul some day rest close to Thee Under the Tree of Knowledge which shall spread Its branches like a Temple overhead. ~Charles Baudelaire http://www.myspace.com/impurity Brutal Skullfucking Death Metal

03-23-2008, 11:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
ghoti Electric Eclectic Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Mill Valley, CA Posts: 163 Real Name: Mike Main Seven: Schecter Blackjack C7 Rig: Behringer Thanked: 3	To quote Frank Zappa: tone is in your head. Seriously. Eddie Van Halen took less than $200 of parts and made a guitar sound that basically influenced every 80's hair band (hmmm, not sure that's really a good thing :P) In my opinion, a lot of people seriously overthink stuff like this, instead of just playing what feels and sounds the best to them and letting everything else take care of itself. Moving the pickup back some will change the sound...a LITTLE...how much is basically a matter of opinion. Question authority. Don't ask why, just do it.

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03-23-2008, 11:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
olejason ss.org Regular Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Richmond, KY Posts: 71 Thanked: 9 / 1	That's really getting into splitting hairs though. That kind of things goes out the window the second you apply any kind of gain to your tone anyway imo. Not to mention the guitar is sitting in a MIX of other instruments. I will laugh in the face of anyone that thinks they can hear a legitimate discernible difference between the tones of a 24 fret guitar vs. a 22 fret guitar in the context of a mix... it's ridiculous.

03-23-2008, 11:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
Trespass Invading Your 7s Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 1,373 Real Name: Kris Rig: Mesa Stilletto Stack Thanked: 89	Part of the problem, I feel, is that there is no easily comparison. Ibanez, for example, doesn't make a 22fret RG model and a 24 fret RG model that have the same specs.

03-24-2008, 12:14 AM	#9 (permalink)
Durero prototyping... Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada Posts: 3,526 Real Name: Leo Pedersen Main Seven: Raven 7 - my design Main ERG: Ergo 10, Ergo 9, Stick 8 Rig: 2101LTD>TS100>2x1936 Thanked: 36	The folk who make the so called "harmonic node argument" don't seem to have any understanding of what a harmonic node actually is - a harmonic node is a point where there is little or no string movement. Imagining that placing a pickup under a harmonic node is a good thing is quite silly. However stating a preference for the neck pickup placement on 22-fret guitars vs. 24-fret guitars is not silly at all - the 22-fret placement will definitely yield a more bass-heavy and slightly higher output, all else being equal. A preference for 24-fret pickup placement is also very reasonable - it's simply tone difference due to pickup placement along the strings, and nothing to do with harmonics.


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Harmonic Node Argument?