[eleven59]

Originally Posted by Naren

...not knowing any scales at all is going to guarantee that you're not going to be very good at soloing.

See, here I disagree. If someone has a good enough musical sense to be able to figure out the notes they're hearing in their head, they don't necessarily need to know the rules of "why" they work. Hell, look at Hammett and Hetfield. Hammett knows lots of scales but has only written a few solos that are worth anything, while Hetfield knows no theory and has written a few solos that completely destroy (in my opinion) anything Hammett's carefully worked out. My favourite solo Hammett ever recorded was an improvised take after scrapping the one he spent hours writing.

I know lots about theory, have re-learned scales and modes and chords so many times thanks to elementary school music, high school music, piano lessons, and college. I haven't sat down and learned all the scale shapes on guitar, and when I'm writing I don't think "Oh I'm playing this chord, I should use this scale over it", I think about what notes sound right to me.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by Jason

Look on the bright side you got a drummer and IMO next to a bassist there the hardest to find

In my experience, drummers are, by far, the hardest to find. In level of difficulty to find from easiest to hardest, I'd say: 1. singer/vocals, 2. rhythm guitar, 3. bass, 4. lead guitar, 5. drums.

So, it looks like he has the 3 hardest to find members in his new band already.

Originally Posted by eleven59

See, here I disagree. If someone has a good enough musical sense to be able to figure out the notes they're hearing in their head, they don't necessarily need to know the rules of "why" they work. Hell, look at Hammett and Hetfield. Hammett knows lots of scales but has only written a few solos that are worth anything, while Hetfield knows no theory and has written a few solos that completely destroy (in my opinion) anything Hammett's carefully worked out. My favourite solo Hammett ever recorded was an improvised take after scrapping the one he spent hours writing.

I know lots about theory, have re-learned scales and modes and chords so many times thanks to elementary school music, high school music, piano lessons, and college. I haven't sat down and learned all the scale shapes on guitar, and when I'm writing I don't think "Oh I'm playing this chord, I should use this scale over it", I think about what notes sound right to me.

See, here I disagree. Hetfield DOES know scales and music theory. Definitely not to the same level of Hammett, but he does know them (or he did).

I studied music theory on my own and to a small degree in college (took a few classes), but I oftentimes write my solos without thinking of scales at all. However, the principles are there. And I've found that some guitarists who have never studied music theory before or learned anything formally before may not know the names of the scales, but they DO know scales. Just because they don't know what they're called or the music theory reasoning behind them doesn't mean they don't know them. And, from what it sounds like, the guitarist in the first post (after his quote about Amott and Akerfeldt not knowing scales) doesn't know them in any way.

The other guitarist in my band doesn't know the names of 90% of the scales he plays, but he KNOWS those scales. Most of them not from learning them in a book, but from listening to CDs and playing what he heard or from jamming and playing what he liked.

[eleven59]

Originally Posted by Naren

See, here I disagree. Hetfield DOES know scales and music theory. Definitely not to the same level of Hammett, but he does know them (or he did).

I studied music theory on my own and to a small degree in college (took a few classes), but I oftentimes write my solos without thinking of scales at all. However, the principles are there. And I've found that some guitarists who have never studied music theory before or learned anything formally before may not know the names of the scales, but they DO know scales. Just because they don't know what they're called or the music theory reasoning behind them doesn't mean they don't know them. And, from what it sounds like, the guitarist in the first post (after his quote about Amott and Akerfeldt not knowing scales) doesn't know them in any way.

The other guitarist in my band doesn't know the names of 90% of the scales he plays, but he KNOWS those scales. Most of them not from learning them in a book, but from listening to CDs and playing what he heard or from jamming and playing what he liked.

I guess I can see what you're saying, and it's kinda what I was saying, which was even if you don't know the names, you know the sounds, and you know what works that way.

As for Hetfield...



And on the Classic Albums DVD when he's talking about "Nothing Else Matters" he says he doesn't know the notes on the guitar, and was freaking out thinking he'd have to show the string section how to play it by pointing to the frets

[canuck brian]

Originally Posted by Naren

Of course, if that person doesn't know any scales, they shouldn't be playing solos at all.

This is one of the few occasions on this board where I've got to totally disagree with you. There was one guy who wasn't musically skilled that almost everyone on here believes was one of the most gifted musicians but didn't really know much about music theory: Chuck Schuldiner.

From wikipedia (I've also got a live interview from Muchmusic during the recording of Individual Thought Patterns where Chuck pretty much says exactly this.)

"Contrary to what many assumed, Schuldiner was in fact not well schooled in musical theory. He found "playing by ear" to be a more effective and advisable method. Schuldiner did "make up" his own scales and modes (many of which ended up being real scales, such as harmonic minor and melodic minor) which Schuldiner frequently utilized in his solos, a testament to his excellent ear. This also led him to create his odd fingering positions which very much defined his style."

[Naren]

Originally Posted by canuck brian

This is one of the few occasions on this board where I've got to totally disagree with you. There was one guy who wasn't musically skilled that almost everyone on here believes was one of the most gifted musicians but didn't really know much about music theory: Chuck Schuldiner.

From wikipedia (I've also got a live interview from Muchmusic during the recording of Individual Thought Patterns where Chuck pretty much says exactly this.)

"Contrary to what many assumed, Schuldiner was in fact not well schooled in musical theory. He found "playing by ear" to be a more effective and advisable method. Schuldiner did "make up" his own scales and modes (many of which ended up being real scales, such as harmonic minor and melodic minor) which Schuldiner frequently utilized in his solos, a testament to his excellent ear. This also led him to create his odd fingering positions which very much defined his style."

I stand by my statement and that quote pretty much shows that he DID know some scales (such as harmonic minor and melodic minor). Not knowing the names of the scales is irrelevant. And, anyone who has heard Death before would know that he knew a hell of a lot of scales.

I think that if you don't know any scales, you shouldn't be playing solos at all. However, I did not say that you have to know the musical reasoning behind the scales. As I mentioned above, the lead guitarist in my band does not know the names of any of the scales he plays. He doesn't know practically any theory (intervals, names of chords, names of scales, and so on). And, for my solos, I never ever think "Maybe I'll play melodic minor here" or anything like that. I just start on the root note and play whatever sounds better after that, but the notes that I choose with knowing scales are quite different than they'd be from not knowing scales. In one of my songs, the scale I'm playing is not an actual scale because the rhythm guitar behind it does not fit into any key.

If I seriously thought that you shouldn't play solos unless you knew the names of your scales and the theory behind it, I wouldn't be in the band I've been in for almost 1 and a half years.

I was not imagining someone like Dimebag or Chuck Schuldiner who were neither trained in music theory. I WAS trained in music theory and they both knew a fuck of a lot more scales than me.

This may come from a negative experience I used to have, but I'm imagining the guitarist in the original post as having absolutely no skill whatsoever in writing or playing leads. But I could be wrong.

[Justin Bailey]

Originally Posted by canuck brian

This is one of the few occasions on this board where I've got to totally disagree with you. There was one guy who wasn't musically skilled that almost everyone on here believes was one of the most gifted musicians but didn't really know much about music theory: Chuck Schuldiner.

From wikipedia (I've also got a live interview from Muchmusic during the recording of Individual Thought Patterns where Chuck pretty much says exactly this.)

"Contrary to what many assumed, Schuldiner was in fact not well schooled in musical theory. He found "playing by ear" to be a more effective and advisable method. Schuldiner did "make up" his own scales and modes (many of which ended up being real scales, such as harmonic minor and melodic minor) which Schuldiner frequently utilized in his solos, a testament to his excellent ear. This also led him to create his odd fingering positions which very much defined his style."

I'm gonna have to agree with Brian on this one. Like I said on the previous page, it's not about what scales you do or do not know, it's about creativity. I don't want to get into a flaming war, but look at all the youtube shredders, they sure know they're scales, but are they doing anything interesting or different? No. They're just going up and down scales.

[daybean]

just to add my two cents, it doesnt take the knowledge of knowing scales ans so on, but the ear to what sounds right and good.i never took any lessons and i found my own sound and theory to playing music. i agree and disagree with all said, everyone has there own take. maybe this doesnt make anysence but whatever, you will find another group.

[Shawn]

Sorry to hear he took the bass player. Around here, bass players are hard to come by but at least you still have your drummer to jam with you. You should have no trouble finding a bass player I hope. The same for a rhythm guitar player too. Or you could do both. I've been the only guitar player in my band since 1996.

[Naren]

Originally Posted by daybean

just to add my two cents, it doesnt take the knowledge of knowing scales ans so on, but the ear to what sounds right and good.i never took any lessons and i found my own sound and theory to playing music. i agree and disagree with all said, everyone has there own take. maybe this doesnt make anysence but whatever, you will find another group.

That's pretty much my take on it as well.

[DDDorian]

A scale is just a succession of notes, so unless you decide to play one note your entire life you'll end up playing a scale whether you're aware of it or not. That being said, whoever started this argument is being entirely too nit-picky about the whole thing.