[eaeolian]

Originally Posted by zimbloth

Does it even have matter what tuning they use? Dave hasn't written anything decent in decades. He's a poor songwriter. I know a lot of you guys are nostalgic for the 80's and whatever, but do any of you seriously think they're worthy of this much discussion? Do any one of you think they've put out a good album since the Berlin Wall fell? Also, Chris Broderick obviously has immense technical ability, but what memorable songs has he written? I can't think of any good stuff he's written in a band context before. At least someone like Jeff Loomis has the chops but also writes amazing songs as well. Being able to balance insanely tasteful shredding with catchy memorable riffs, that's the real genius right there. There's a lot of great shredders out there who can solo out of their minds but can't write decent riffs. I'm not saying Chris can't or hasn't, but I've yet to hear it.

I actually quite liked his stuff with Industrial Eden, and he wrote some pretty damn good stuff with Jag Panzer. He won't be allowed to write anything in 'Deth, though, so that doesn't really matter.

Dave did finally find someone who can play both Poland and Friedman's solos, though.

[Sebastian]

Originally Posted by eaeolian

Dave did finally find someone who can play both Poland and Friedman's solos, though.

[noodles]

Originally Posted by eaeolian

Dave did finally find someone who can play both Poland and Friedman's solos, though.

I thought Al did a pretty damn good job.

He's not as good as Chris, though.

[lucasreis]

Originally Posted by zimbloth

Does it even have matter what tuning they use? Dave hasn't written anything decent in decades. He's a poor songwriter. I know a lot of you guys are nostalgic for the 80's and whatever, but do any of you seriously think they're worthy of this much discussion? Do any one of you think they've put out a good album since the Berlin Wall fell? Also, Chris Broderick obviously has immense technical ability, but what memorable songs has he written? I can't think of any good stuff he's written in a band context before. At least someone like Jeff Loomis has the chops but also writes amazing songs as well. Being able to balance insanely tasteful shredding with catchy memorable riffs, that's the real genius right there. There's a lot of great shredders out there who can solo out of their minds but can't write decent riffs. I'm not saying Chris can't or hasn't, but I've yet to hear it.

I know I may sound like a jerk, but I just don't get what all the fuss is about with these guys. If I wanted someone to put on a shred clinic, I'd love to go see Chris play. But in the context of actual music, like bands, what's the big deal?

Also the whole "it's nice to see bands embracing E tuning still" is silly. Why is that nice? Why should someone foolishly embracing something so limited and primitive like Dave be applauded? I know a lot of awesome tunes have been written in E, but it really makes no sense to take pride in limiting yourself like that. There are so many musical, great sounding notes that work for any genre of music below E. I really don't even see how E-E became the standard, makes no sense to me.

/Rant

It´s not about limiting, it´s about keeping their sound classic. I respect Dave for his decision not to jump in the seven string bandwagon. Not everyone HAS to play them. It´s called DIVERSITY. We are the minority, E is still the standard tuning and it will always be as far as I´m concerned. What I tried to say is that a lot of people play seven-strings and just use the LOW B and are just as limited as the guys only playing in E, it´s a matter of how you use it. Some bands are very limited, remember new metal? They didn´t play in E, but were far more limited in writing and playing than Megadeth. I´m a seven stringer but also a six stringer, so, what I think is that the only thing that can limit a guitar player is himself, not his tunings.

[Metal Ken]

Originally Posted by zimbloth

Also, Chris Broderick obviously has immense technical ability, but what memorable songs has he written? I can't think of any good stuff he's written in a band context before.

His lead work in Jag Panzer was amazing, though i dont know how much of the songs he wrote.

[DDDorian]

I think people are talking about Chris in the same way people talk about Shane from Korn; sure, neither band is worth shit artistially anymore but the fact still remains that they pull huge numbers and have millions of fans, so it's exciting to know that one of "us" has gone on to big things. I suspect the reasons the conversations always steer back to Mustaine is because no-one knows anything about Chris, really, whereas Mustaine has provided twenty years of hypocritical arsefuckery to discuss. Force of habit, I guess.

Originally Posted by zimbloth

Also the whole "it's nice to see bands embracing E tuning still" is silly. Why is that nice? Why should someone foolishly embracing something so limited and primitive like Dave be applauded? I know a lot of awesome tunes have been written in E, but it really makes no sense to take pride in limiting yourself like that. There are so many musical, great sounding notes that work for any genre of music below E. I really don't even see how E-E became the standard, makes no sense to me.

I hardly think E-E is "limited and primitive". It's the standard because it gives you easy grips for a lot of common keys in the open position. Plus, there isn't a decent thrash band that tunes any lower than Db, and even a lot of those that go tha low sound like shit (in a thrash context anyway).

It's easy to simulate heaviness by downtuning and just chugging away, and for a long time that was the trend; the reasons Mustaine is still raging about it is because he's clueless and thinks it's still a relevant opinion. You have to take his bullshit with a grain of salt, I mean, he bitches about how much he hates downtuned guitars and growly vocals and then "handpicks" Children Of Bodom, In Flames, Job For A Cowboy and High On Fire for Gigantour. Clueless much? Hell, he probably hasn't even noticed that Broderick plays a seven-string.

[The Dark Wolf]

Originally Posted by DDDorian

Hell, he probably hasn't even noticed that Broderick plays a seven-string.

[zimbloth]

Originally Posted by lucasreis

It´s not about limiting, it´s about keeping their sound classic. I respect Dave for his decision not to jump in the seven string bandwagon. Not everyone HAS to play them. It´s called DIVERSITY. We are the minority, E is still the standard tuning and it will always be as far as I´m concerned. What I tried to say is that a lot of people play seven-strings and just use the LOW B and are just as limited as the guys only playing in E, it´s a matter of how you use it. Some bands are very limited, remember new metal? They didn't play in E, but were far more limited in writing and playing than Megadeth. I´m a seven stringer but also a six stringer, so, what I think is that the only thing that can limit a guitar player is himself, not his tunings.

What the hell ever dude. If people know how to play guitar and have a clue about songwriting, they'd use the extra range to their advantage. It's completely weak for Dave to turn his nose up to lower tunings, while he embraces his primitive & limiting tuning. What's "classic" to me is Black Sabbath, who tuned to C# back in 1972. Or all the old school thrash bands who tuned to D, or the old school death metal bands who tuned to B or A. The Beatles and a lot other bands tuned to D as well. There's just no good reason to not EVER want any notes lower than an E. I'm convinced based on the vast majority of Dave's material in the last 15-20 years that he has a poor musical ear and that could explain these kinds of things.

I don't get your nu-metal comparison. Obviously if someone sucks at writing music, no tuning will help him. Obviously badass songs like Painkiller by Judas Priest prove you can sound heavy with E tuning. That's not the point. The point is, Dave is a complete moron for having the attitude he has about down-tuning. If you can play guitar, you can write awesome stuff in any genre of music in any tuning. Having more range let's you be so much more dynamic and heavy. Metal is just like classical music with its sensibilities and compositional structure, they're almost the exact same thing just with different instruments. For almost every style of music the extra range would give any decent songwriter the necessary tools to use the scales to the fullest and create the most interesting pieces. Unless you're just playing repetitive thrash stuff, I see no benefit from not having a 7-string or using alternate tunings.

Again, I don't see how it's "diverse" to limit yourself. I don't think Dave should be applauded for being lazy and complacent. Most people who laugh at people who tune down to D or C or use 7's usually are clueless about songwriting or have shitty gear and don't realize you need good pickups/amps to amplify lower notes properly.

Originally Posted by DDDorian

I hardly think E-E is "limited and primitive". It's the standard because it gives you easy grips for a lot of common keys in the open position. Plus, there isn't a decent thrash band that tunes any lower than Db, and even a lot of those that go tha low sound like shit (in a thrash context anyway).

D standard actually makes just as much sense in that regard if you want to use that argument. It's standard because musician's as a whole are very stubborn and adverse to change. That's why there's legions of people out there who will turn their noses up at the thought of Pro Tools, or tube that's not a NOS Telefunken, or all the people that spend $7000 on a Gibson 59 reissue when you could get an infinitely better sounding/playing guitar for 1/4 of that, etc. Really though we should explore context. In metal and hard rock, it's not standard and it really never has been. Again, Sabbath C#, Rush, Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, etc used alt. tunings. Old school thrash bands tuned to Eb and D often, old death metal in D, C#, B etc, 80's hair metal bands often tuned in Eb or D (Motley Crue comes to mind), etc.

As for the thrash thing, I agree with you that thrash (usually not the most dynamic music but fun) doesn't need to be in B or anything. I mentioned thrash above for that reason. That said, it certainly sounds better in Eb or D than in E most of the time, at least IMO. I'm no advocate of riding a low B-string. On the majority of our songs, you could play 70-75% of the song on a 6-string tuned to D standard. I don't mind if someone likes E tuning. It's just so limiting and for people like Dave to put down 7's is just ridiculous.

[lucasreis]

Originally Posted by DDDorian

I think people are talking about Chris in the same way people talk about Shane from Korn; sure, neither band is worth shit artistially anymore but the fact still remains that they pull huge numbers and have millions of fans, so it's exciting to know that one of "us" has gone on to big things. I suspect the reasons the conversations always steer back to Mustaine is because no-one knows anything about Chris, really, whereas Mustaine has provided twenty years of hypocritical arsefuckery to discuss. Force of habit, I guess.



I hardly think E-E is "limited and primitive". It's the standard because it gives you easy grips for a lot of common keys in the open position. Plus, there isn't a decent thrash band that tunes any lower than Db, and even a lot of those that go tha low sound like shit (in a thrash context anyway).

It's easy to simulate heaviness by downtuning and just chugging away, and for a long time that was the trend; the reasons Mustaine is still raging about it is because he's clueless and thinks it's still a relevant opinion. You have to take his bullshit with a grain of salt, I mean, he bitches about how much he hates downtuned guitars and growly vocals and then "handpicks" Children Of Bodom, In Flames, Job For A Cowboy and High On Fire for Gigantour. Clueless much? Hell, he probably hasn't even noticed that Broderick plays a seven-string.

I agree with you. E doesn´t limit anyone, some of the greatest songs in history were written tuned to standard. Dave is a dick and he does, in fact, choose a lot of downtuned sound bands to go on his tour, but I agree with the chugga chugga thing, and I still think it´s common. There are a lot of generic B or Drop-C tuned bands nowadays that just sound the same and aren´t expanding anything. But he is still a dick, although I really like his band and work to this day.

Originally Posted by zimbloth

What the hell ever dude. If people know how to play guitar and have a clue about songwriting, they'd use the extra range to their advantage. It's completely weak for Dave to turn his nose up to lower tunings, while he embraces his primitive & limiting tuning. What's "classic" to me is Black Sabbath, who tuned to C# back in 1972. Or all the old school thrash bands who tuned to D, or the old school death metal bands who tuned to B or A. The Beatles and a lot other bands tuned to D as well. There's just no good reason to not EVER want any notes lower than an E. I'm convinced based on the vast majority of Dave's material in the last 15-20 years that he has a poor musical ear and that could explain these kinds of things.

I don't get your nu-metal comparison. Obviously if someone sucks at writing music, no tuning will help him. Obviously badass songs like Painkiller by Judas Priest prove you can sound heavy with E tuning. That's not the point. The point is, Dave is a complete moron for having the attitude he has about down-tuning. If you can play guitar, you can write awesome stuff in any genre of music in any tuning. Having more range let's you be so much more dynamic and heavy. Metal is just like classical music with its sensibilities and compositional structure, they're almost the exact same thing just with different instruments. For almost every style of music the extra range would give any decent songwriter the necessary tools to use the scales to the fullest and create the most interesting pieces. Unless you're just playing repetitive thrash stuff, I see no benefit from not having a 7-string or using alternate tunings.

Again, I don't see how it's "diverse" to limit yourself. I don't think Dave should be applauded for being lazy and complacent. Most people who laugh at people who tune down to D or C or use 7's usually are clueless about songwriting or have shitty gear and don't realize you need good pickups/amps to amplify lower notes properly.



D standard actually makes just as much sense in that regard if you want to use that argument. It's standard because musician's as a whole are very stubborn and adverse to change. That's why there's legions of people out there who will turn their noses up at the thought of Pro Tools, or tube that's not a NOS Telefunken, or all the people that spend $7000 on a Gibson 59 reissue when you could get an infinitely better sounding/playing guitar for 1/4 of that, etc. Really though we should explore context. In metal and hard rock, it's not standard and it really never has been. Again, Sabbath C#, Rush, Stones, Beatles, Hendrix, etc used alt. tunings. Old school thrash bands tuned to Eb and D often, old death metal in D, C#, B etc, 80's hair metal bands often tuned in Eb or D (Motley Crue comes to mind), etc.

As for the thrash thing, I agree with you that thrash (usually not the most dynamic music but fun) doesn't need to be in B or anything. I mentioned thrash above for that reason. That said, it certainly sounds better in Eb or D than in E most of the time, at least IMO. I'm no advocate of riding a low B-string. On the majority of our songs, you could play 70-75% of the song on a 6-string tuned to D standard. I don't mind if someone likes E tuning. It's just so limiting and for people like Dave to put down 7's is just ridiculous.

Man, calm down, please. I don´t agree with Dave hating seven-string guitars or anything, I play six and seven string guitars, but I also don´t agree with this primitive tuning thing. There are no primitive tunings, good guitarrists are good no matter what tuning they use. Some of the greatest songs on history were written on standard tuned guitars.

Want an example? I play seven strings, I like them, they´re good to me, but I don´t like 8 string guitars. I mean, I like Meshuggah playing them but I wouldn´t have one because I don´t feel it´s necessary to what I want to do! Does that make me primitive and old fashioned? I don´t think so. My brother is a Petrucci fan and a stunning guitar player, way better than I am, but he does not feel comfortable with sevens, he just play sixes, but he creates wonderful tunes. This isn´t about being primitive, it´s a matter of choice.

Not everyone has to play a seven string just because it has more notes. Sometimes less is more, it´s just that simple. Generic crap is written on six, seven and even eight strings now. The player has to feel comfortable with what he is doing. If Dave doesn´t want it, he doesn´t have to do it, but I don´t agree with all the hating that he has.

[noodles]

GUYS, CHILL OUT.