[Regor]

Sorry, for those of you expecting a visual aid... the title of the thread is meant to be metaphorical.

Two threads here have got me thinking about something relevant to the music we listen to, and to my band's music that I write as well. So I want to pose this question to you all.

In the FF thread, Hatebreeder said:
"...as much as i dont like Trivium's generic metalcore sound, at least they have harmonies and solos to break up the monotonous Fear Factory Verse/Chorusx2+chorus song structure."

And in the Iron Maiden being egged at OzzFest thread, people are praising IM as metal gods.

So what I'm wondering is, what's wrong with "verse/chorusx2" song styles? Didn't this kind of stuff work for bands like Sabbath, Maiden, Metallica, etc etc etc? Not everyone writes 30min epics like Dream Theater or Iced Earth. But most bands that become successful on a grand scale (like Maiden and Ozzy) have songs that are verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, (verse) chorus. So what's wrong with that?

The reason I'm asking this, is that my band has a song that we wrote, and we just went ballistic with the number of changes we make in the song. It's 7:45, and we only do the chorus 3x... which prolly accounts for 40sec of the entire song. So I've been trying to write my next songs with more of a 'normal' song structure... not so much to be 'successful', but rather so that the crowd can get into the songs and sing along (in due time of course). But who wants to 'sing along' to the chorus of a song that only has a chorus 2x in the song?

[The Dark Wolf]

I don't think there's a damn thing wrong with verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus. I use a similar song structure all the time. It really allows you to make a point in a song, introduce your lyrical and melodic/rhythmic ideas, and give the people something to sing along with/jam with (there is a whole school of psychology relating to the mechanics of the structure of songs. Reintroducing something, like a repeated chorus, really allows people to mentally 'grasp' the chorus/repeated idea. It's why that structure tends to be so popular THROUGHOUT music, whatever the genre. You even see a version of this in classical music, with the Sonata form, using a repeated idea to get across a musical theme.)

[Metal Ken]

Originally Posted by Regor

And in the Iron Maiden being egged at OzzFest thread, people are praising IM as metal gods.

So what I'm wondering is, what's wrong with "verse/chorusx2" song styles? Didn't this kind of stuff work for bands like Sabbath, Maiden, Metallica, etc etc etc? Not everyone writes 30min epics like Dream Theater or Iced Earth. But most bands that become successful on a grand scale (like Maiden and Ozzy) have songs that are verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, (verse) chorus. So what's wrong with that?

Well, in sabbath, Maiden, metallica, etc, there's more to it than just those things, there's instrumental parts, there's guitar solos, there's harmonies, etc. The new fear factory song was EXACTLY verse, chorus, verse chorus, chorus. I mean, sure there's nothing wrong with, its just kinda..boring, you know? after i hear a verse, a chorus and a verse, i know there's gonna be just 2 more choruses, i've already heard that. Whats the point. in the song (bite the hand that bleeds).. it was barely even 3 or 4 riffs...

Sure, for ex. the Trooper... Its verse/chorusx2/solo/verse/chorus, but it also has that badass intro, the little harmony thingy, then the verse, and it also has 2 badass guitar solos, etc. Theres just more going on, you know?

[dpm]

What's a chorus?

[Drew]

It's a solo over the top of a set of changes in jazz, I think, dan.

[Regor]

Originally Posted by HateBreeder

Well, in sabbath, Maiden, metallica, etc, there's more to it than just those things, there's instrumental parts, there's guitar solos, there's harmonies, etc. The new fear factory song was EXACTLY verse, chorus, verse chorus, chorus. I mean, sure there's nothing wrong with, its just kinda..boring, you know? after i hear a verse, a chorus and a verse, i know there's gonna be just 2 more choruses, i've already heard that. Whats the point. in the song (bite the hand that bleeds).. it was barely even 3 or 4 riffs...

Sure, for ex. the Trooper... Its verse/chorusx2/solo/verse/chorus, but it also has that badass intro, the little harmony thingy, then the verse, and it also has 2 badass guitar solos, etc. Theres just more going on, you know?

I see what your saying. Good thing I put those 'instrumental' parts in my songs then. Wouldn't want anyone on here not liking my music.

[Christopher]

*Enters Music Monk mode*:

I think you just have to go where the song takes you. Sometimes a song needs to be short, sweet, and to the point. Other songs are just more elaborate and have more things to say. In my songwriting I've always found tension to be the most important element. The common verse/chorus/etc works for that reason. You build tension and then resolve only to build tension again. It's like sex. Some songs are long tantric love making sessions and others are "bang her head off the headboard" fucking kinds of things.

I'm writing one right now that has a very weird unresolved feel to it. It always feels incomplete. Even when it reaches the chorus (or the closest piece resembling a chorus) it doesn't quite completely release the tension. That's where the drama comes from.

Songs that have no drama (or tension and resolution) are the songs I find boring.

*Exits Music Monk mode*

[SevenatoR]

One of the thinks I think you have to consider is your target audience. If you're writing for musicians, or just for the sake of making music, you can do whatever strikes you as cool.

If you're writing for "the masses" then you have to keep things a bit simpler, and usually a bit shorter or they'll get lost, or even worse, bored.

[Regor]

Originally Posted by SevenatoR

One of the thinks I think you have to consider is your target audience. If you're writing for musicians, or just for the sake of making music, you can do whatever strikes you as cool.

I'm playing for myself. But if you're not appealing to people, then you're not going to get asked back to play places again.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by HateBreeder

Sure, for ex. the Trooper... Its verse/chorusx2/solo/verse/chorus, but it also has that badass intro, the little harmony thingy, then the verse, and it also has 2 badass guitar solos, etc. Theres just more going on, you know?

The Trooper is a great tune.