Randy Blythe, worth reading

[ArrowHead]

Originally Posted by TheSpaceforthis

If the porn is of good quality, people will pay for it, same goes for music. End of story.

How many will pay for it?
How many of those will post it on youtube/redtube?
How many people will then download it free from these types of sources rather than pay?

Not end of story. Just the end of your interest in it. And the beginning of an interesting discussion.

[Labrie]

Originally Posted by ElRay

Sorry, wrong. You have my product and you did not pay me for it. You stole it. End of story.

Try to tell an Architect that you didn't steal the result of their effort by copying their plans.

Try to tell a professor that you didn't steal their research just because you copied their data.

Try to tell a photographer that you didn't steal their photos just because you copied their drive.

You're confusing the physical media with the intelectual property/work product. Pirating is still theft and you can play all the sophist games you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you took somebody's work, effort, intellectual property, without compensating them.

Ray

So should I feel bad for turning on the radio every morning? As soon as I hear that song in its entirety I technically have that artists intellectual property don't I? I made the same argument with the library analogy and was told that the library cannot buy books that haven't been approved for that use by the publisher. The same goes for radio which furthers proves my point that it's not as black and white as you are making it out to be.

If it's stealing end of story, then you're also saying that every time I hear a song being played anywhere and I haven't directly paid for the right to listen to that song, then I am committing a crime. And that sounds incredibly silly because it is just that.

I can't believe how many people think this issue is purely black and white. It is obviously so many shades of grey.

[ArrowHead]

Originally Posted by ElRay

Pirating is still theft

Piracy is piracy. Theft is theft. Different crimes. Different laws. Different punishments. Different concepts.

Both illegal. Both are immoral. Both profit on the work of others. But I'm so tired of people trying to say one=the other. We're not trying to justify stealing. I think piracy is completely WRONG. But it is NOT theft. Is bootlegging theft? Is counterfeiting theft? No.

It's not theft. If we can't establish this fact, this entire discussion gets completely derailed again and again.

Copyright infringement is the unauthorized use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's "exclusive rights", such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, spread the information contained within copyrighted works, or to make derivative works. It often refers to copying "intellectual property" without written permission from the copyright holder, which is typically a publisher or other business representing or assigned by the work's creator.

Copyright holders frequently refer to copyright infringement as theft. In copyright law, infringement does not refer to theft of physical objects, but an instance where a person exercises one of the exclusive rights of the copyright holder without authorization.[6] Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not constitute stolen property and that "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright... 'an infringer of the copyright.'" In the case of copyright infringement the province guaranteed to the copyright holder by copyright law is invaded, i.e. exclusive rights, but no control, physical or otherwise, is taken over the copyright, nor is the copyright holder wholly deprived of using the copyrighted work or exercising the exclusive rights held

Get it, everyone?

They're not the same thing because they're NOT THE SAME THING. More metaphors about cars and stealing will not change this.

[flint757]

Originally Posted by Labrie

So should I feel bad for turning on the radio every morning? As soon as I hear that song in its entirety I technically have that artists intellectual property don't I? I made the same argument with the library analogy and was told that the library cannot buy books that haven't been approved for that use by the publisher. The same goes for radio which furthers proves my point that it's not as black and white as you are making it out to be.

If it's stealing end of story, then you're also saying that every time I hear a song being played anywhere and I haven't directly paid for the right to listen to that song, then I am committing a crime. And that sounds incredibly silly because it is just that.

I can't believe how many people think this issue is purely black and white. It is obviously so many shades of grey.

Someone got paid for it being on the radio, same with the library. If it is up on youtube officially some bands profit from the advertising. You didn't pay to use it, but someone did. If you go on the web and just download it then you are definitely in the wrong. While it is not in a legal sense theft you are taking something without paying for it and without permission.

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by Labrie

And by the sounds of it you wouldn't have your book in the library because you would equate people reading it there to be stealing it. Which, imo, is absolutely absurd for someone who CHOSE a career in writing.

If you wrote a book that sold 1000 copies does that mean that you spent your own personal time writing out 1000 copies? I don't think so. But yet you think you're entitled to the amount of money for the time it would potentially take for you to write out your book that many times. If you're making the argument that you don't work for free then I'm making the argument that I don't pay someone to NOT work.

And no, the last time I checked, I wasn't able to return digital copies of albums. If I'm paying for the right to listen to a piece of music and it turns out to suck ass, then why can't I return my "right" to it and get my money back?

You can't be naive about it. If you choose a career in music you have to expect that people are going to "steal" your product. That's just the way it is regardless if it's right or wrong. If you don't like it then choose a job where you get paid by the hour.

I assume you negged me to strengthen your case, but you didn't: You are trying so hard to make a point that you are over-reaching miles.

I would have no trouble with a library using my book because they are paying for a specific right and I know exactly what that right entails--people get to borrow my book for a week before returning it. They don't give out mass copies to anyone who holds their hand out.


In summary of everything you have said, I have the right to take any product made by any manufacturer that did not make it directly. So, according to you, since James Wood Johnson and Edward Mead Johnson are no longer alive, I have a right to take all Johnson & Johnson products for free because they aren't the original products, only copies that their hands had no part in making. In fact, every product in every store should be free because the original creators, in most cases, are dead and thus did not create them--they're only copies. See how stupid your logic sounds when applied to something that you aren't safe behind a computer screen to steal?

And naive? Are you kidding me? It is naive to think that you have the right to take my product without paying, not for me to expect compensation for my product. You think bands owe it to you to give you free music. I think your ego is too big to fit through a doorway.

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

Piracy is piracy. Theft is theft. Different crimes. Different laws. Different punishments. Different concepts.

Both illegal. Both are immoral. Both profit on the work of others. But I'm so tired of people trying to say one=the other. We're not trying to justify stealing. I think piracy is completely WRONG. But it is NOT theft. Is bootlegging theft? Is counterfeiting theft? No.

It's not theft. If we can't establish this fact, this entire discussion gets completely derailed again and again.

Get it, everyone?

They're not the same thing because they're NOT THE SAME THING. More metaphors about cars and stealing will not change this.

Yes you are trying to justify stealing. Just because the definitions are different, doesn't mean you still aren't taking what is not yours to take

When you have a stated right to take the music, then you can complain that piracy is not theft because it won't be. Until then, stealing is defined as taking without permission or right.


Nice try, though.

Originally Posted by xhellchosemex

what this guy said. im really not going to pay for music which i could dislike or something. i always check out and then buy the cd or merch.

Tell that to the clerk next time you go to buy your groceries. "I'm not going to pay for this food that I could like or dislike. I'll eat it first, then let you know if I feel like paying now that I already have had it."

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

Those are horrifying numbers, man. Units are units, not dollars. A 99 cent song download is a unit. An entire physical album is a unit. That's a $10+ difference per unit.

We weren't arguing that over time, music sales have gone down. That is common knowledge. In fact, they're down 52% from 2000 thanks to P2P and downloading in general. Despite the fact one of this charts is three years out of date and another is speculation on the author's part if you look it up, we are discussing the death of the industry, which you claim has come. The industry is nowhere near in danger of dying off. Metal certainly is in a worse predicament than ever, but only a small majority of the population listens to it.

You've got a billion dollars being dragged in through pop, rock, and everything commercial. As long as there is a Lady Gaga or a Just Bieber (and let's face it, if the name's not the same, they still find power acts), the music industry is safer than safe. You need proof, just look up their sales.

[linchpin]

I'm gonna say this, I wasted a lot of money back in the 90s... thankfully, i'm a little more careful and conservative nowadays because my buying is very specific, organised and well thought through rather than erratic buying for the sake of buying... I'm not exactly what you'd call a full-blown consumer.

[petereanima]

Originally Posted by linchpin

I'm gonna say this, I wasted a lot of money back in the 90s...

Me too. I have bought "Load" and "Reload" unheard/"blind" when they came out.

Nowadays, I listen to 2-3 songs online (youtube mostly) in advance, if I like what I hear, I buy it.

[Labrie]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

I assume you negged me to strengthen your case, but you didn't: You are trying so hard to make a point that you are over-reaching miles.

I would have no trouble with a library using my book because they are paying for a specific right and I know exactly what that right entails--people get to borrow my book for a week before returning it. They don't give out mass copies to anyone who holds their hand out.


In summary of everything you have said, I have the right to take any product made by any manufacturer that did not make it directly. So, according to you, since James Wood Johnson and Edward Mead Johnson are no longer alive, I have a right to take all Johnson & Johnson products for free because they aren't the original products, only copies that their hands had no part in making. In fact, every product in every store should be free because the original creators, in most cases, are dead and thus did not create them--they're only copies. See how stupid your logic sounds when applied to something that you aren't safe behind a computer screen to steal?

And naive? Are you kidding me? It is naive to think that you have the right to take my product without paying, not for me to expect compensation for my product. You think bands owe it to you to give you free music. I think your ego is too big to fit through a doorway.

First off I didnt neg rep you, I never neg rep anybody but I would definitely have the balls to admit it if I did. Secondly, if all you are going to do is twist words and throw insults then I'm done with this thread. If you want to have a conversation, a debate even, I'm all for it but when you resort to calling someone a keyboard warrior with an inflated ego it to try and make a point, it makes you look like kid throwing a tantrum.

[Genome]

Originally Posted by TheSpaceforthis

If the porn is of good quality, people will pay for it, same goes for music. End of story.

Clearly you've never been on Redtube

[ArrowHead]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

Yes you are trying to justify stealing. Just because the definitions are different, doesn't mean you still aren't taking what is not yours to take

I've said how many times I'm against piracy, and do not download music illegally, and yet you say I'm justifying piracy. You need to listen to what people are saying, instead of reading what you want into it.

That's insulting.

Originally Posted by ArrowHead

Both illegal. Both are immoral. I think piracy is completely WRONG.

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

Yes you are trying to justify stealing.

How do you get from A to B there, man?

[SenorDingDong]

Originally Posted by Labrie

First off I didnt neg rep you, I never neg rep anybody but I would definitely have the balls to admit it if I did. Secondly, if all you are going to do is twist words and throw insults then I'm done with this thread. If you want to have a conversation, a debate even, I'm all for it but when you resort to calling someone a keyboard warrior with an inflated ego it to try and make a point, it makes you look like kid throwing a tantrum.

Yes, I am throwing a tantrum by using what you said against you.

























So it wasn't an insult when you said I (because I work in the arts and you made the generalization to all people who do) have an

over-inflated sense of entitlement

, which is the same as an ego?

But I didn't get offended, because I can refute everything you are claiming. Basically, you have not rebuttal that is less than ridiculous and uninformed and you are now angry that everything you have said has been subjected to logic.

I didn't call you a keyboard warrior--I basically said you feel safe stealing things that you can get anonymously. If I'm wrong, why don't you go on to the local CD store and steal some CDs--after all, you don't know if you'll like them, and thus you shouldn't have to pay for them. And remember, in your words, you aren't stealing because the bands did not handcraft those CDs as they did the music they contain. They're only copies, right?

As for ego, yes, I do believe you have one to think anyone owes you anything, especially if they spent their time creating it. You've got your hand out, expecting someone to fill it. That takes ego.




And I'll bring this back up, just because it is so absurd:

But yet you think you're entitled to the amount of money for the time it would potentially take for you to write out your book that many times. If you're making the argument that you don't work for free then I'm making the argument that I don't pay someone to NOT work.

See, you're inferring that by you paying for the album, you are buying someone's time, which you are not. Again, this is where your entire concept of the working world becomes a surreal--you are not paying me to work, you are paying for my work, and a copy of it, no less. If you don't want to pay for it, you don't need it so badly. Just as you go to the store every day and buy one of millions of copies of every single thing you purchase, you buy a copy of a book or a CD. You will never find the "original" Hostess Twinkies, or the "original" bag of cookies that spawned all the rest because they are either gone, or not for sale. Likewise, most are made by machinery, just like books and CDs. So please, go steal everything that is not an original, or the direct product of the creator's hand.


I really am done with this discussion now, because the quality of most of the arguments, or the lack thereof, is becoming desperate.

[ArrowHead]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

the music industry is safer than safe. You need proof, just look up their sales.

I did. I posted them for you.

You don't understand the thread, my point, or even your own point. Add to that how much you've side-tracked this thread, thrown out false information, and talked down to people with far more information and experience than you while giving ZERO facts to support your argument... And you've repeatedly put words in my mouth and attributed points to me that I have not made.

You're rude, insulting, and worse yet you're diluting a great thread with a bunch of shitty unfounded opinions on an industry you don't know a damned thing about.

[ArrowHead]

Originally Posted by SenorDingDong

But I didn't get offended, because I can refute everything you are claiming.

Then DO IT!!! Post a fact, a law, a definition, an article, some figures, ANYTHING to back up what you're saying other than your attitude and opinion! I posted the legal difference between piracy and theft - your refutation consisted of "nice try though".

Can you imagine how frustrating that is? How can anyone argue with you, if you won't back up your argument and won't accept what others show you?

[VBCheeseGrater]

SIGH....i guess a little red looks good on the rep bar and nothing wrong with a little time off......So...not aiming this at anyone in particular....

When your mommy gives you your allowance, you need to save that for things you like to buy. If you run out of money, you are not supposed to just take things without paying. At that point, you can do one of a few things....

A) Go ask your mommy for more money so you can buy "Dick split open by a wooden spoon"
B) Get a job, work for your money - providing your boss doesn't decide he doesn't feel like paying for you - why should he, right?
C) Quit your bitching and moaning and wait until you can afford the product like a respectable human being.
D) Get it for free via pirating, all the while raising the finger to those who put the time, heart, and effort in producing the music