Advantages and disadvantages of 21st music technology..

[HeavyRiffin]

So i'm doing some work for university and I have to write about the effects/ advantages/ disadvantages that technology is having on live music performances. Namely in rock/metal music. So I want to hear what you guys have to say, its an interesting subject none the less.

For example we all know there are haters of drum triggers/ sampling and some people love them.

[Guitarman700]

Anything I can do to make my music sound its best I'll do. I don't care about playing live, though, so that's another story. Studio magic is a wonderful thing in my mind.

[JoeytheChoady]

I would definitely say it helps makes the show "perfect", as in playing to click tracks, triggers and adding in ambience/parts that are in album versions of songs. I typically think that's pretty cool, but a lot of times triggers and digital effects and stuff like that sometimes take away from the organic sound that live music usually feels. Nonetheless though, it's still music and it is awesome.

[Scar Symmetry]

Things that can make live shows better and carry us into the future of live performances? I'm all for them. People who rant about triggers piss me off.

[HeavyRiffin]

Yeah I hear that, it's hard to find a rep

[HeavyRiffin]

It's hard to find a reputable metal band that don't use some form of triggers these days, I'm all for it.
Some people may argue that using all this technology might take away the authenticity of a 'live' performance?

[Demiurge]

Originally Posted by HeavyRiffin

Some people may argue that using all this technology might take away the authenticity of a 'live' performance?

"Authenticity" is probably going to be the basis behind any objections to growing technology. Utilities that can correct the pitch, timing, or attack/clarity (triggers?), some may argue that they take away from the so-called "rawness" of a performance... or force some sort of implication that the band performing really can't play their instruments and therefore that technology lowers the bar, allowing people who really can't play to perform.

Personally, I don't buy it. I want to go to a good live show, and a click or triggers isn't going to ruin my night. A band that really can't play isn't going to be saved by a click, since musical incompetence usually streams from failing to follow a beat, so the drummer being unable to adjust to the band if they're speeding-up or slowing-down will conceivably sound worse. Triggers may be forgiving with the drummer's attack, but the timbre itself is less forgiving and probably more apt to catch off-hits.

[JoeytheChoady]

The only people that ACTUALLY care are musicians, and in the grand scheme of things, in the typical audience the majority isn't musicians, it's fans. The show is honestly more important, it's pretty justifiably to "cheat" to put on an amazing show than sound like utter shit and put on a decent, but mediocre show.

[ChrisRushing]

"Authenticity" is probably going to be the basis behind any objections to growing technology. Utilities that can correct the pitch, timing, or attack/clarity (triggers?), some may argue that they take away from the so-called "rawness" of a performance... or force some sort of implication that the band performing really can't play their instruments and therefore that technology lowers the bar, allowing people who really can't play to perform.

I think any person making "authenticity" claims concerning triggers/clicks etc in a live environment are sorely mistaken and are ignorant of how the technology actually works. There is no way to quantize a band in "real time". If a band plays to a click, they have to stay in time with that click. There is no magic tool that just makes them sound awesome and together.
Drummers have been bitching about triggers for almost two decades now. I suspect it is because they are too dumb to understand that triggering a drum hit doesn't mystically make it more in time. A shitty drummer playing with triggers just sounds like a shitty drummer with sampled drum hits.
Sure the guy behind the kit can hit the drum set like a pussy and have it come out sounding like Mike Smith is firing off one of his shot gun blast but anyone with any kind of musical knowledge will knows what's up.

[handmetheaxe]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Axe FX/other reputable amp modeler VS Real amp in a live setting.

[BucketheadRules]

The only real issue I have with studio trickery is when singers AutoTune their voice and can't even come close to hitting the notes live (yeah Phil Labonte, I'm looking at you). That really would ruin a whole show for me - I don't know how fans can put up with it. If the vocals are that far off it'd be painful to listen to - and not just from a musician's perspective.

[Maggai]

I recently played a show with my band, and I used my axe fx II. The drummer uses triggers on the bass drums. Lots of people came up to us and said we sounded amazing. Then the soundguy overheard some other people talking shit about us, they said we sounded great only because of our good equipment, not because of our playing. He told them what he thought about that, and the shut their mouths and left.

This modern equipment makes it easier to get good sounds, but you still have to be good at playing your instrument. I don't sound good because I have an Axe FX II, I sound good because I ....ing practiced my ass off for 16 years.

[Asrial]

Autotune gets tons of hate. I agree when it's used as vocal steroids, that's just a signal of weakness and lack of skill, but using it as an effect like When Saints Go Machine does, then it's fair. Drum triggers are also not that cool, because you normally get plenty of rest, so there's no excuse to use it extensively on every single drum.
Oh, and that small segments counts for studio only. Musical steroids is IMO okay to use when it provides consistency in a show, especially for constantly touring musicians who might have off days and shiz. Imagine Meshuggahs "Bleed" without triggers on Haakes bass drums.


Axe-FX, I really can't see a problem with that. It provides a sound, and if the artist likes it in a live scenario, then why replace it? I actually see it as an advantage, as tube amps are friggin' heavy, knobs might recieve some bumps during setups, pedalboards are a nightmare to deal with and it requires tons of setup time which could be spent on rehearsing, chilling, extra troubleshooting etc., so really, it's good.
In studio, I'm kinda more towards actually using the best gear at hand. Without a doubt, the modelled amps are inferior to the original amps, and if possible, you should use an amp. But studio musicians and bedroom warriors like myself () won't nessecarily have the space/money for such costy equipment, where it is directly needed to use modelled tech like a POD or an Axe-FX.

[Scar Symmetry]

I have to say I've been to gigs where the sound is usually shocking bad (After The Burial at The Face Bar in Reading comes to mind) and instead of micing the amps they plugged their Axe Fxs into the PA and it sounded ....ing fantastic whereas had the amps been miced the sound would have been appalling. What's the point in holding on to the past if new technology presents better solutions?

[MerlinTKD]

My only problem with sampled drum sounds - and I do mean, my ONLY problem - is it limits the player's ability to learn 'touch', and also to learn how to tune drums.

On the other hand, the 'touch' issue has been around for guitarists ever since Leo and Les came up with the solidbody idea, and especially since distortion was made easy. So drummers are just catching, up, I suppose.

Beyond that... any new technology that democratizes a process, making it more widely accessible to a general population, makes it possible for previously hidden geniuses to emerge... and also previously hidden morons. Gotta take the bad with the good, I suppose.

[Compton]

Originally Posted by Scar Symmetry

What's the point in holding on to the past if new technology presents better solutions?

Absolutely! I like of think of it in terms of practicing myself. If i'm at home recording, i'm going to practice something to a metronome and than play my click track on my recording at the same, I don't understand why live you wouldn't want to do the same. If playing to a click live, having amps plugged directly into pa's, and having kick drums triggered to increase the tightness of technical metal music that is constantly getting more technical, why not?
Metal is harsh as it is, concerning tone and what not so it's more difficult to increase the clarity in a live environment obviously.
People always say they want it to be as organic as possible, which is legitimate in terms of some music/bands. But a lot of people who throw that word around to bands that heavily EQ,compress,gate, etc I just don't see where the legs to the table are.

[ChrisRushing]

My only problem with sampled drum sounds - and I do mean, my ONLY problem - is it limits the player's ability to learn 'touch', and also to learn how to tune drums.

Touch I completely agree with. Tuning I think is making a huge assumption that the player has never played in a natural acoustic setting or can't. Sort of like saying because a guy chooses to use an amp modeler for guitar he isn't able to dial in tones on a real amp. It might be the easy way out for some but for a lot of people that just isn't the case. 2 cents

[Rev2010]

Pro's of technology:

Better sound both recorded and live
Far more options for creative expression
Convenience and time saving - eg. effect units have presets whereas we used to tweak individual pedals in between songs
More dynamic live performances - light rigs or video can be automated to play along with the song
Can record a whole album by oneself without needing other band members

Con's of technology:

Can often waste time by presenting too many options. People can often get lost when too many options are present spending too much time going through every kick drum sound, every VST synth patch, every patch on an effect unit, etc
Can lead to a lower level of skill in an instrument if people rely too much on the tech - ie. cool sound effects over a decent riff
Greater possibility of equipment problems or failure -ie. computer or effect unit crash or glitch live, electronic drums false triggering, etc
Can be expensive

Hmm... that's really all I can think of for now, sure I'm forgetting a few things though. In regard to people that claim high end gear makes the music sound too pristine and less organic... to be honest I MUCH prefer a live performance to sound extremely close to the CD. I've been to way too many shows where either the sound was shit, or the singer just couldn't hit the high notes like on the CD (Deftones), or they played 5x faster than normal. If tech can help a band get closer to their studio sound live I for one am all for it!


Rev.

[Cancer]

Cons:
While the sounds have improved considerably, there almost seems to be a "rebellion" with the old school soundguys. It's like they're mad at the band for making their job easier. I swear, except for one "kid" who revelled in the fact that my old band could "plug in and go", our biggest problem was getting soundguys ok with the fact that they didn't have to mic us (save for vocals).

We have more sounds now, and this is awesome, but the concept of "live tweakability" seems to be like a lost art to me. Sure, we have controllers, but I haven't seen a person tweak a sound (as part of the performance) in a long-ass time (actually the last band was Angelspit).

Pros:
Sound Consistency (assuming you can get soundguys to cooperate). I LOVE knowing what my guitar is going to sound like from venue o venue. Much easier to lay blame....;-)

Sound Design: it sorely underused, but the potential is enormous.

Sound Quality: Someone menttioned "After the Burial" and couldn't be more right. It literally was the first time I heard a band that heavy with that degree of clarity.

[Floppystrings]

Here are some problems:

- iPhones can't be close to gear
- Lack of American tube production has forced us to buy tubes from Russia
- Pretty soon you will be able to clone any amp on a computer, with 100% accuracy
which could lower the value of real amps
- Editing...the introduction of digital recording as opposed to analog (big deal)

Thats enough to get an A+, type away.

[dbrozz]

Originally Posted by Floppystrings

Here are some problems:

- iPhones can't be close to gear
- Lack of American tube production has forced us to buy tubes from Russia
- Pretty soon you will be able to clone any amp on a computer, with 100% accuracy
which could lower the value of real amps
- Editing...the introduction of digital recording as opposed to analog (big deal)

Thats enough to get an A+, type away.

If a computer can model an amp with 100% accuracy, then why is it a problem that the value of "real" amps would decline? Sounds like a well earned succession to me.

I think one major thing that still sits strange with me is the fact that musicians can now trigger patch changes within the computer. So instead of the good ol' tap dance, it's done for you. This is great in a sense that it allows the performer to focus soley on playing, but it kinda sucks that pretty soon there will be no chance of ones idol to screw up live and thus confirm that they are indeed human.

Of course, I've got to hand it to the ones who will stick with tap dancing 'till the end. It's damn hard to get used to

[Ckackley]

When I was in high school fumbling with a 4 track cassette recorder I dreamed of being able to record in a studio. Now I've got one on my PC for less than a couple hundred bucks and I can make almost pro sounding stuff . All while sitting in my practice room by myself. My band can record a pro level CD for minimal money and no "label" involvement. I run my processor direct to the board and have NO feedback issues and no tone coloration by a cheap house mic.. Win , Win, WIN.. Tech is your friend.

[Dayn]

I don't think there are any disadvantages to using 21st century technology. If something's lacking, you use different equipment.

We're still using the wheel, after all. Then again, I'm sure there are car enthusiast forums out there with people bitching about power steering...

+1 for the home studio, though. It was incredibly cheap for me to set up. My Xbox takes up more room when you include cabling...

[MikeyLHolm]

Originally Posted by HeavyRiffin

It's hard to find a reputable metal band that don't use some form of triggers these days, I'm all for it.
Some people may argue that using all this technology might take away the authenticity of a 'live' performance?

One comes to my mind. Iirc few years ago at least Zimmerman from Gamma Ray didn't trigger his drums.

On topic:

Surely all new technology makes it easier to record, get decent sounds ( especially on lower volume levels ) and what not. But it also takes away the rawness. Everything sounds like its in Hospital clean room. Records sound HORRIBLE in general with all the toying around. Less gear you have to carry for live.

I think bigger issue is that bands stay on half-assed level since everything is easier. Live playing is sloppy as .... since everything gets PTooled in studios.

[flint757]

Originally Posted by Floppystrings

Here are some problems:

- iPhones can't be close to gear
- Lack of American tube production has forced us to buy tubes from Russia
- Pretty soon you will be able to clone any amp on a computer, with 100% accuracy
which could lower the value of real amps
- Editing...the introduction of digital recording as opposed to analog (big deal)

Thats enough to get an A+, type away.

I think amps getting cheaper is a good thing (even though that means my resale value will go down). If I could afford a twin reverb, JCM 800 and my Mark IV for the price of my Mark IV I'd "Jizz...In....My pants".

Originally Posted by MikeyLHolm

One comes to my mind. Iirc few years ago at least Zimmerman from Gamma Ray didn't trigger his drums.

On topic:

Surely all new technology makes it easier to record, get decent sounds ( especially on lower volume levels ) and what not. But it also takes away the rawness. Everything sounds like its in Hospital clean room. Records sound HORRIBLE in general with all the toying around. Less gear you have to carry for live.

I think bigger issue is that bands stay on half-assed level since everything is easier. Live playing is sloppy as .... since everything gets PTooled in studios.

I agree and disagree with this. I have heard some sloppy playing, but that isn't necessarily because of the tech, just a lack of practice. I do find newer gear to be sterile not just live, but on CD's. Periphery's tone grates my ears sometime which is a shame because I love them riffs.